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I'm not sure how you're pointing out to me something that was entirely part of my point...|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
No it doesn't. One does not need to interact with people on the forums or in the game to observe the conversations they are having in threads or in the chat box.
I hate to point this out to you but the majority of the 125 odd posts in this thread so far were made by the same 2-3 dozen people, and that is a tiny fraction of the games population. |
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According to the 2010 4th quarter earnings released by NCSoft If we assume all sales are from subscriptions, (which they aren't so the number is actually less) we can place the number of subscribers at roughly 63,000. 1% of 63k is 630 players, and as anyone can plainly see nowhere near that number of players have made a written statement yet in this thread. At a glance I'd estimate the number of people who made a written response so far is around 30. |
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| Ah the old "if they can't be bothered to post they agree with me" argument. Always a hoot to see used. |
At all.
What I said was that on ANY given issue, there are people who hold to a desire or belief who are passionate enough about it to "speak up" and people who hold to the same desire and belief but aren't passionate enough about it to speak up. Meaning that for for the numbers above, which you've just shown to likely be HIGHER than my hypothetical numbers showed, there are likely more people who would enjoy it but just havent voiced their opinions.
How you twist that in to "well if they didn't speak then they obviously agree with me" is beyond me.
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| I never said you didn't. I only said I had a problem with your interpretation of what "sizable" was in reference to the number of people discussing whether or not origins should be changed, and that if the devs wanted origins to impact the game they wouldn't have scrapped its effect on the game before launch. |
Also, you never really DID address the problems I pointed out with your assertion that "because the devs removed a feature they initially intended and inclued it somehow means that they are against the concept behind that feature."
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You said my statement "-out of- tens of thousands of player" implied that I interacted with thousand of players. I pointed out that passive observation on the forums and ingame does not qualify as interacting with people online.|
Originally Posted by opprime28
I'm not sure how you're pointing out to me something that was entirely part of my point...
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Which only goes to underscore my point, yet again. As I said, "if we assume -even- 1%" and in reality you point out it was even less, then the fact that more than just a couple of the people out of the 30 in this thread suggested that they DID wish origins matter more suggests that, if this thread is taken as at all analogous of the general population (which is at least as likely as your "what I've seen in my experiences" statement) an even HIGHER number than my "hundreds" would be accurate when factored to match the 63,000 players. What I said was that on ANY given issue, there are people who hold to a desire or belief who are passionate enough about it to "speak up" and people who hold to the same desire and belief but aren't passionate enough about it to speak up. Meaning that for for the numbers above, which you've just shown to likely be HIGHER than my hypothetical numbers showed, there are likely more people who would enjoy it but just havent voiced their opinions. |
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| I'll agree that, from here on out, I'llbe speaking only in terms of participants in this discussion when I make claims about ratios. |
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| Why don't you explain what "sizeable" would be to you. Why don't you do the same. |
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So you were pointing out what I had just claimed? Man, you and I have some serious trouble communicating for some reason. |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
You said my statement "-out of- tens of thousands of player" implied that I interacted with thousand of players. I pointed out that passive observation on the forums and ingame does not qualify as interacting with people online.
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| What was it you said in your last post? |
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I'm sorry but you are the one who seems to be more interested in scoring points here. You offered to drop our speculations on how many people are concerned about this suggestion and I agreed to do the same and return to the actual topic. This is the second time you've referred back to our off topic foray it instead of letting it go.|
Originally Posted by opprime28
The fact that you're now trying to make it look like it does suggests that you're less interested in dialogue about the actual topic and more interesting scoring rhetorical points on an online forum about a video game for some weird reason.
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Anyway as I said in the other origin thread I think origins should be strictly RP because characters can have multiple origins depending on which powersets they have chosen, and it gives the players the freedom to be creative with their character concepts instead of locking them into a game mechanic.
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IF what's going on now counts a "second time" then your last post also counts a reference back, meaning you haven't yet dropped it, either. So nice try.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I'm sorry but you are the one who seems to be more interested in scoring points here. You offered to drop our speculations on how many people are concerned about this suggestion and I agreed to do the same and return to the actual topic. This is the second time you've referred back to our off topic foray it instead of letting it go.
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Regardless, I'm moving on.
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| Anyway as I said in the other origin thread I think origins should be strictly RP because characters can have multiple origins depending on which powersets they have chosen, and it gives the players the freedom to be creative with their character concepts instead of locking them into a game mechanic. |
That being said I -could- get behind the idea that you chose an "origin" for each powerset, and both of these origins are accessible/applicable to your toon. So a dual pistols/fire weilding techno-wizard might be have a tech-primary and magic-secondary origin, and be able to do either contacts and use either SOs/DOs. I'd have zero problem with that if it were able to be coded.
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Origins meant something in the game in pre-beta. It was decided to strip them of all meaning. You're arguing against an intentional, directed, specific decision the developers made on purpose, and as such you need to produce a convincing argument why their decision needs to be overturned, remembering that many of the developers who worked at the time are still with the game. You have so far failed to do so.
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Originally Posted by opprime28
I decided it wasn't worth my time add in a pool at the time I built my house. It was known, however, that my intial plans for a pool were included in the blueprints and in my hiring. Meaning I clearly originally wanted a pool. There were several concerns including time, money, and safety of my young children that kept me from putting it in at the time.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I have a problem with this in principle, in how you define who should have what effect against what. In various fiction, I've seen technology-based characters find themselves helpless before magic because... Well, it's magic, such as Darksiders, and I've seen technology-based characters suppress and overcome magic because it's "weak" to technology, such as in the world of Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura. I have, as a point of fact, a character called Mage-Killer Po, whose technological powers centre around tech shields to ward against magical effects and energy weapons designed to affect spirits and cut through magic barriers. By contrast, I have a technologist who wouldn't know magic from a parlour trick if you gave him a road map, yet owns his own R&D corporation.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
What I'd like is for origins to actually *do* something in that respect, not so much that you're getting a buff or that you can't choose what it is, but that you should be doing stuff that makes sense for the origin itself. Maybe that Circle of Thorn's hold doesn't last as long or is reduced in effect because I'm a mutant. Or that the mutations of the Devouring Earth can be suppressed by the powers of science so they can't pull up their little pet buffs right off. Or *something*!
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The chief problem I've always had with making Origins mean more is WHAT they should actually mean. I have never, for the life of the game, seen people agree on what even a single Origin means or represents with any sort of majority.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I think you can. Why not just ask the people reading the thread. I generally see all the origins as pretty wide in their scope, which isn't a bad thing. It just means that, if origins mattered, there should be a more customized option for it (or to simply not be affected one way or the other).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The chief problem I've always had with making Origins mean more is WHAT they should actually mean. I have never, for the life of the game, seen people agree on what even a single Origin means or represents with any sort of majority.
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| I have a problem with this in principle, in how you define who should have what effect against what. In various fiction, I've seen technology-based characters find themselves helpless before magic because... Well, it's magic, such as Darksiders, and I've seen technology-based characters suppress and overcome magic because it's "weak" to technology, such as in the world of Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura. I have, as a point of fact, a character called Mage-Killer Po, whose technological powers centre around tech shields to ward against magical effects and energy weapons designed to affect spirits and cut through magic barriers. By contrast, I have a technologist who wouldn't know magic from a parlour trick if you gave him a road map, yet owns his own R&D corporation. |
Choosing to take part in this extra system would mean, by the nature of it, your character would be *locked* as that origin, so if you were tech then anything affecting tech would affect you.
However, there should be options...just not sure the range.
-Super Custom Advanced could conceptually be your tech is so far ahead of the curve, it's alien and practically magic. Things that affect tech wouldn't affect you but simultaneously wouldn't weaken magic.
-Mega Integration could conceptually be the type of tech trumped by magic but being highly adaptable to current tech. You would not only claim the same attributes tech can bring but also have added benefits vs other tech below the range of Super Custom Advanced types.
Your Magekiller Po would probably pick Tech origin with the specific Super Advanced attribute. While your other type of tech user would probably pick something else.
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Except Devs DIDN'T decide to strip them of all meaning. As has been pointed out, the entire system of enhancements prior to IOs was built around them, and your initial contacts were determined by them. While the enhancements were identical and the contacts didnt offer origin related storylines, they weren't ignored. Likewise, new content in Preatoria seems to be affected by origin. I'm not asking for their decision to be overturned. It APPEARS that while they decided agianst them affect mechanics, they clearly still want them to play a role in storyline, even including the "origins of powers" storyline. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Origins meant something in the game in pre-beta. It was decided to strip them of all meaning. You're arguing against an intentional, directed, specific decision the developers made on purpose, and as such you need to produce a convincing argument why their decision needs to be overturned, remembering that many of the developers who worked at the time are still with the game. You have so far failed to do so.
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What Im asking for is more of that.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
However, there should be options...just not sure the range.
-Super Custom Advanced could conceptually be your tech is so far ahead of the curve, it's alien and practically magic. Things that affect tech wouldn't affect you but simultaneously wouldn't weaken magic. -Mega Integration could conceptually be the type of tech trumped by magic but being highly adaptable to current tech. You would not only claim the same attributes tech can bring but also have added benefits vs other tech below the range of Super Custom Advanced types. Your Magekiller Po would probably pick Tech origin with the specific Super Advanced attribute. While your other type of tech user would probably pick something else. |
I dunno, that's getting a little complicated.
You know, I remember someone saying that one of the incarnate slots was going to possibly allow people to add secondary effects (or third effects) to their powers. Given that incarnate slots are directly linked to the well of the furies, which is the source of all origins, I wonder if something on a smaller scale to what you mention above could be what they're thinking. Maybe my ice/storm corruptor could slot it so that he has smashing/cold/slow effects for his attacks but also a "mutant" effect that does something extra. I dunno though. Unless all of the effects were the same I could see that being its own problem unless anyone can craft any type of origin effect, essentially altering their own origin.
I think Im happier with primarily story-contact-event driven acknowledgment with just some slight, across the origins payout, myself.
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Lets dial this into the fiction of COX of what kills what. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I have a problem with this in principle, in how you define who should have what effect against what. In various fiction, I've seen technology-based characters find themselves helpless before magic because... Well, it's magic, such as Darksiders, and I've seen technology-based characters suppress and overcome magic because it's "weak" to technology, such as in the world of Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura. I have, as a point of fact, a character called Mage-Killer Po, whose technological powers centre around tech shields to ward against magical effects and energy weapons designed to affect spirits and cut through magic barriers. By contrast, I have a technologist who wouldn't know magic from a parlour trick if you gave him a road map, yet owns his own R&D corporation.
The chief problem I've always had with making Origins mean more is WHAT they should actually mean. I have never, for the life of the game, seen people agree on what even a single Origin means or represents with any sort of majority. |
Magic is dangerous to Science (In the Midnighters arcs they mention Rikti being vulnerable to it because their focus is science.)
If we decide to extend that into a pattern (based on how DO's work, and starting with Magic being a science killer), then we'd get:
Magic --> Science
Science --> Natural
Natural --> Mutation
Mutation --> Technology
Technology --> Magic
Where the arrows denote what kills what. I don't know how well that stands up to the rest of the CoX world, though. Anyone else know? Or maybe the arrows should point the other way?
Or... you know, what would be even better would be if the arrows pointed both ways! Maybe magic could get +ToHit vs. Science, and +Damage vs. Tech, but suffers -DamageResistance vs. Science, and -Defense vs. Tech.
That would be awesome.
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Step 1; make sure you actually have the first clue about said fiction before trying to use it.|
Originally Posted by Berzerker_NA
Lets dial this into the fiction of COX of what kills what.
Magic is dangerous to Science (In the Midnighters arcs they mention Rikti being vulnerable to it because their focus is science.) |
The reason the Rikti are weak to magic is because they killed their Gods. There is literally no more magic on the Rikti Homeworld. All faith is gone, every last speck. Ergo, they have never needed to defend against it, likely haven't experienced magic until they came to Primal Earth, and thus got the hell blasted into them by the Midnighters.
Until they bombed them, of course...
The Rikti Magi are radicals who have started practiscing magic using Earth methods. Or were previously mages as humans, or descendents of Mu.
So, it has nothing to do with 'rock beats scissors'. And thus the idea would not work.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Why should it? If you aren't roleplaying, the origin is a totally arbitrary point on your character sheet. Like specifying in you bio that you have green eyes. Plus, it doesn't really map very well to some concepts. For example, some people make vampires, and declare them Magic origin. If I made a vampire or demon, I'd call them Natural - whatever powers they have are as likely to be a natural feature for their race as learned skills. The 5th Column vampires are pretty likely to be Science origin. I know of at least one variation on the Living Vampire from the Spiderman comics that strongly suggested he was either a flat out mutant, or a science induced/accelerated mutant like Beast. And I can think of at least three decent backstories that would allow for Technological origin vampires. For example, a suit of power armor that depends on technology stolen or copied from the Nictus, that either allows the wearer to drain the life force of others, or actually even requires it to function.|
Originally Posted by opprime28
And they should. I mean, they SHOULD be a major choice with effects to your character's story and development. |
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Option #1: ORIGIN SPECIFIC CONTACTS In comics, a hero's origin also often is directly linked to their greatest arch nemesis, as well. It usually opens them up to the conflict and storyline that defines them, forcing them to improve their powers and skills over time. |
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| OPTION 2: ORIGIN LINKED ZONE EVENTS |
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| OPTION 3: SPECIAL ORIGIN ENHANCEMENTS: |
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| OPTION 4: TEMP POWERS: |
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| OPTION 5: UNLOCKABLE COSTUME PIECES/WEAPONS |
In fact, there is a recent game that actually does tie specific looks to a specific origin, and it frustrates a lot more people than it pleases. See, other than a few specific (and fairly obvious) costumes, the game doesn't tell you in advance which set is tied to which origin. And if you had a specific theme in mind and discover that the parts you want are in a different origin? Delete and reroll, cause you can't get there from here. And that's not even addressing the fact that some people would like to be able to mix and match the looks from different costumes, and can't. Because they're tied to specific origins.
Origin should remain as an RP aspect as others have said. I would be opposed to it being more as MANY MANY different people in game and on the forums will NOT agree on the definition of certain origins.
Mutants are hated in one universe but loved in another, etc. Hell there are arcs that THE DEVS created that hint that all the origins at one time had a common origin.
So I think the devs INTENTIONALLY keep origins as vague as necessary.
EDIT: The post above me has expressed the many problems with Origin definiton.
If Origin mattered from the beginning sure, this late in the game's life, where there are SEVEN YEARS of characters with specific backstories, NO.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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/unsigned.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I didn't mean all enemies.
I meant, let's make certain enemy groups (or have existing ones) that target spicific origins a little more readily. I'm not saying all enemies hate mutants more. I'm saying have a group out there that targets mutants because they hate mutants, and have similar groups that hate the others. |
Players hated this on the Heroic Epic ATs (notice it doesn't exist for the villain ones) and eventually had to nerf Voids/Quants/etc to the point where they are no serious threat to Khelds.
Having such a flawed failure of an idea ported to the rest of the game is NOT a good idea. Sorry.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Speak for yourself. I still find the little buggers a problem...
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Players hated this on the Heroic Epic ATs (notice it doesn't exist for the villain ones) and eventually had to nerf Voids/Quants/etc to the point where they are no serious threat to Khelds.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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and thus EVE MORE reason not to do this.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Speak for yourself. I still find the little buggers a problem...
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Good. I always thought having a different origin should matter in those cases since your natural vampire would likely be very different from the living undead or the science created vampire. They're so different, wouldn't expect your Castlevania-esque sorcerer-type Dracula vamp having the same parasitic bio-enhanced super-soldier vampyri qualities, would you?
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Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
Why should it? If you aren't roleplaying, the origin is a totally arbitrary point on your character sheet. Like specifying in you bio that you have green eyes. Plus, it doesn't really map very well to some concepts. For example, some people make vampires, and declare them Magic origin. If I made a vampire or demon, I'd call them Natural - whatever powers they have are as likely to be a natural feature for their race as learned skills. The 5th Column vampires are pretty likely to be Science origin. I know of at least one variation on the Living Vampire from the Spiderman comics that strongly suggested he was either a flat out mutant, or a science induced/accelerated mutant like Beast. And I can think of at least three decent backstories that would allow for Technological origin vampires. For example, a suit of power armor that depends on technology stolen or copied from the Nictus, that either allows the wearer to drain the life force of others, or actually even requires it to function.
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Only if I decide that's part of their character. Just like I can make any origin work for a vampire, I can think of reasons why almost any set of powers and weaknesses could apply as well. Again, it's strictly an RP factor. And I would object *strongly* to every character being given, essentially, their own form of Kryptonite. What was Batman's weakness again? Oh, yes, he chooses not to use guns on living people. How about Wolverine, what was his fatal flaw? Right, he doesn't have one. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Good. I always thought having a different origin should matter in those cases since your natural vampire would likely be very different from the living undead or the science created vampire. They're so different, wouldn't expect your Castlevania-esque sorcerer-type Dracula vamp having the same parasitic bio-enhanced super-soldier vampyri qualities, would you?
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Spiderman's only real weakness is that the writers love to mess with him, and have a nasty habit of undoing anything that could lead to a "Happily Ever After" for Peter Parker. Their favorite is that many of his villains started out as his friends, or end up killing people he cares about. As a character, he doesn't need a special weakness to Magic, for example, because he's not immune to much anything else either. A mook with a machine gun is actually a threat to Spiderman.
For Superman, they had to decide that magic was a special exception to his invulnerability, because the audience looses interest if *nothing* can threaten the hero. I'd also note that for the animated version at least, that two of his major enemies are both probably Science origin. Parasite and Livewire. For that storyline, the writers decided that Superman is also vulnerable to electricity, at least the the extent that Livewire can actually hurt him and even stun him unconscious. I could also make the case that Livewire could be either Mutant or Natural, as well. And *her* major weaknesses are her own massive ego and that water catastrophically short circuits her powers.
*Lots* of supers don't have any special weakness. You only need to add an exception if the hero is overpowered to begin with, as with Superman. In CoH, they added Void Hunters as the Kheldian Kryptonite. And later greatly weakened them once it became apparent that Khelds are basically "balanced enough" without needing a foe that has the ability to auto-kill them whenever it turns up. By the time the got around to VEATs, it was clear that VEAT kryptonite was A) not necessary, and B) wildly unpopular with players. Which is at least part of why VEATs don't *have* a Kryptonite.
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Again, if we were working under the suggestion of tech having tech-like repercussions and mutation having mutant-ish vulnerabilities, etc., then the proposal works regardless of what exceptions you can think of because it'd be working with the flow of the game lore. This would only not work if you made a suggestion that went *against* game lore. And in that instance, you can simply 'permanently disable' the feature for said character.|
Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
Only if I decide that's part of their character. Just like I can make any origin work for a vampire, I can think of reasons why almost any set of powers and weaknesses could apply as well. Again, it's strictly an RP factor. And I would object *strongly* to every character being given, essentially, their own form of Kryptonite....
*Lots* of supers don't have any special weakness. You only need to add an exception if the hero is overpowered to begin with, as with Superman. In CoH, they added Void Hunters as the Kheldian Kryptonite. And later greatly weakened them once it became apparent that Khelds are basically "balanced enough" without needing a foe that has the ability to auto-kill them whenever it turns up. By the time the got around to VEATs, it was clear that VEAT kryptonite was A) not necessary, and B) wildly unpopular with players. Which is at least part of why VEATs don't *have* a Kryptonite. |
Meaning, if you don't want your sciency stuff doing sciency things because it's not really science, then you'd have a 1-shot chance to make a wall between your powers and origin.
Aside from Kheldians, there is no "game lore" for any of the origins having special weaknesses. At all. The Rikti aren't especially vulnerable to magic because they're Science, they're vulnerable to it because they don't *understand* it. The Rikti are familiar with directed energy weapons and explosives. Magic can take them by surprise because they're totally unfamiliar with the rules behind it. It doesn't show up on their scanners, and their dampening field generators can't disable it. Yet. On the other hand, Rikti don't understand magic because on their own world, they COMPLETELY DESTROYED IT. Part of their current plan is to figure out the rules behind Primal Earth's magic, so that they can do so again.
And even then, Rikti are a special case. Crey are just as Science, and they not only *aren't* vulnerable to magic, they actively try to incorporate it into their evil plans. The Circle of Thorns are Magic, but they aren't especially vulnerable to the science attacks of the Rikti, or much of anyone else.
And then there's Hamidon and the Devouring Earth. I'm not even sure what Origin Hamidon itself would be, since, if I understand the backstory, the Hamidon is what's left of a mad scientist who used magically enhanced technology to mutate himself into a naturally god-like being. Who uses psychically enhanced bacteria to mutate other humans into his willing slaves. Who often launch science based terror strikes against anyone they don't like. (IE, synthetic mutagens, chemical mind control, and bog-standard bombs when they've really gotten impatient.)
My point is, that even in comics, having a hero be weak against a specific origin is a specific flaw to that one character. Superman is vulnerable to Magic, but he's also vulnerable to science (red sunlight, kryptonite, and massive jolts of electricity in some versions.) Wonder Woman is *NOT* vulnerable to science. If anything, she's vulnerable to Magic, her own origin. Batman isn't particularly invulnerable to anything, outside of his Standard Script Immunity to actually losing a fight. Spiderman has super strength, but is actually pretty vulnerable to any form of attack that can actually hit him - his enemies tend to focus on AoE energy attacks because they're hard to dodge, not because of any special weakness. The Fantastic Four are classic Science origin, and their main foe, Dr Doom, is largely a Science and Technolgy villain. (Although he's not above using magic if the opportunity presents itself.)
The concept of one origin being automatically stronger or weaker against another is flawed. It's not supported by comics or even fiction as a whole. In fact, the only place where I've consistently seen that kind of "rock paper scissors" mechanic is Pokemon. And even then, specific Pokemon are *designed* to be exceptions to their own rules.
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Rikti: vulnerable to any magic-type hold/immobilize/debuff type powers (either improved duration, chance for +mag or 'critical effect') simulates lack of understanding of magic. Character +chance to hit with deity Magic or Natural faith simulates being unable to pick up such things on scanners and for ousting the god-like powers from their own dimension. Rikti low chance of -special on tech characters simulate greater understanding of individuals using high forms of technology. Rikti +special defense vs lower forms of Science and Technology. Mutants get special resistance to Rikti psionic holds to simulate Rikti being mutated humans from another world.|
Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
Aside from Kheldians, there is no "game lore" for any of the origins having special weaknesses. At all. The Rikti aren't especially vulnerable to magic because they're Science, they're vulnerable to it because they don't *understand* it. The Rikti are familiar with directed energy weapons and explosives. Magic can take them by surprise because they're totally unfamiliar with the rules behind it. It doesn't show up on their scanners, and their dampening field generators can't disable it. Yet. On the other hand, Rikti don't understand magic because on their own world, they COMPLETELY DESTROYED IT. Part of their current plan is to figure out the rules behind Primal Earth's magic, so that they can do so again.
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| And even then, Rikti are a special case. Crey are just as Science, and they not only *aren't* vulnerable to magic, they actively try to incorporate it into their evil plans. The Circle of Thorns are Magic, but they aren't especially vulnerable to the science attacks of the Rikti, or much of anyone else. |
Circle of Thorns: Low forms of tech will resist all effects of the circle due to being highly perfected and difficult to break down. All forms of science and natural training inhibit the frequency of spells by spellcasters (such as -rech, -range, etc) as these are formulaic and don't require time to manifest. Natural faith and deity Magic have a less chance to hit.
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| And then there's Hamidon and the Devouring Earth. I'm not even sure what Origin Hamidon itself would be, since, if I understand the backstory, the Hamidon is what's left of a mad scientist who used magically enhanced technology to mutate himself into a naturally god-like being. Who uses psychically enhanced bacteria to mutate other humans into his willing slaves. Who often launch science based terror strikes against anyone they don't like. (IE, synthetic mutagens, chemical mind control, and bog-standard bombs when they've really gotten impatient.) |
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My point is, that even in comics, having a hero be weak against a specific origin is a specific flaw to that one character. Superman is vulnerable to Magic, but he's also vulnerable to science (red sunlight, kryptonite, and massive jolts of electricity in some versions.) Wonder Woman is *NOT* vulnerable to science. If anything, she's vulnerable to Magic, her own origin. Batman isn't particularly invulnerable to anything, outside of his Standard Script Immunity to actually losing a fight. Spiderman has super strength, but is actually pretty vulnerable to any form of attack that can actually hit him - his enemies tend to focus on AoE energy attacks because they're hard to dodge, not because of any special weakness. The Fantastic Four are classic Science origin, and their main foe, Dr Doom, is largely a Science and Technolgy villain. (Although he's not above using magic if the opportunity presents itself.) The concept of one origin being automatically stronger or weaker against another is flawed. It's not supported by comics or even fiction as a whole. In fact, the only place where I've consistently seen that kind of "rock paper scissors" mechanic is Pokemon. And even then, specific Pokemon are *designed* to be exceptions to their own rules. |
Just to clarify, I never agreed that 'Mutant is automatically weak to Science' or what have you. I never said there'd be a 'rock paper scissors' mechanic here. Actually, I *specifically* stated that, were I to make origins matter, they'd work in the context of the lore in that, certain tactics were used in the past to defeat foes. For instance, it was 'Magic Invisibility' that allowed Alpha Team to sneak past their sensors to get to the Rikti Homeworld and destroy their portals. Technically, I should be able to make a magic stalker and never be spotted by *any* rikti, but that wouldn't mean Knives, Snipers or other foes wouldn't be able to see me. Why? Because it *makes sense* from the lore.
And that only touches on the *basics* as I think, just like was stated above, there's more than one type of 'natural' and more than one type of 'science' that would apply to different situations.
And as for the idea of "mutant-ish" vulnerabilities, what, exactly, should an "average" mutant be vulnerable to? Wolverine is really only kind of vulnerable to telekinesis, since he can't fly. (He can't rip your guts out if he can't reach you.) Most people in that setting are vulnerable to telepathic attacks, so those don't count. However, telekinesis only works against Wolverine. It's much less effective against Cyclops, because he can zap you as long as he can see you. And it does zilch to Nightcrawler, because he can just teleport away. There have been a few issues where some villain or other has created some Unobtanium device that specifically targets the X Gene, but that's a story gimmick. And even then, it's turned out to also work on other origins (like Spiderman, since for a while he was a science-induced mutation) or it doesn't affect some of the intended targets. (Natural resistance, or "whoops, by human standards he's a mutant, but his dad's a space pirate, so it doesn't work on him.")
And that's not counting the weird fringe cases. I have a Mastermind that is Technology Robotics/Traps, because those best fit the character I wanted to make. If I could *totally* customize everything, the robots would actually be magically based steampunk. IE, if you damaged one badly enough, the furnace that powers it would start leaking chaos magic instead of radiation. The magic powers a totally physical construct though: a charm that nullifies magical effects wouldn't be able to stop it from simply punching you in the head.
1% of 63k is 630 players, and as anyone can plainly see nowhere near that number of players have made a written statement yet in this thread. At a glance I'd estimate the number of people who made a written response so far is around 30.