Making Origins count

Sure Bill, I'll excuse you. There, you're excused...

Whiners are people who complain about things in an annoying way... ususally after the fact. Nay-sayers are simply people who put down ideas because they don't like them. There are lots of whiners and nay-sayers on every forum for every game. Comes with the territory. Labels only stick if there's a reason for them to, otherwise they don't.

What's possible and impossible is of course whatever the developers decide to make possible within the time and ecconomic limitations of their resources.

We were told that player customized powers were impossible within the code of the current engine (at the time). Guess what? They rewrote it. They reworked the graphics engine too. If they want to, they can rework the entire game engine. They'd have to have a good reason to do that, but they could. Nobody said anything about easy.

We're discussing ideas and possibilities here, not realities.

As for breaking the game... come on, stop hyperventilating... if they decide to make a change of the magnitude as we're talking about here, they'd make sure things worked right. This is a good development team, where's your faith in their ability to create?

As for the original development team's assessment of the players (as stupid)-- Well Jack actually said in an interview (which I don't have a link for) that they had underestimated the players in their original design, and upon further consideration they would have made a more complex game design if they had correctly analyzed how clever we all really are. So, yeah, the original game design was dumbed down to not overwhelm novice game players who they assumed were going to be really ignorant, slow to catch on, and not very adaptable.

Then let's talk realities shall we?

There is a significant difference between the Devs saying something like "we'd like to do Power Customization but it'll take literally years to do" and them eventually doing that and them saying something like "we don't want to provide any more Origin-gated content because we don't want anything to be limited to certain subsets of the playerbase based on Origin".

One was desired by the Devs, even if it was very hard to do.
The other the Devs don't want to change even if it's the most trivial thing in the world to do.
Get the difference?

And your still conveniently ignoring the fact that the Devs have said, recently, that they have no intention of even looking at changing how Origins work, because of how much hassle it was cause them, players, and the guys who work coding.

Ergo, this isn't in the same vein as "We'd like to but it's time/coding/money/whatever the boss says."
This is "No, it's WAI and it's not going to change."

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Incorrect. We were told it would take a lot of work. At the time we were told that, PS was still Cryptic, and still had a total of 15 people on the game. The work involved - essentially we were told "Sure, we could. You'd get nothing else for the next year."

Sitting there with my mastermind's nonresponsive pets in an empty PVP zone. Or maybe sitting in a base that hasn't seen updates to its system in quite some time (or new items, or a revised editor, or...) Or possibly at the tailor seeing how, yet again, I'm getting charged without changing a costume. Or maybe just sitting there with typos that should - especially with their new editing tools, which we get a subset of in AE - be easy to fix, but never have been. Or possibly sitting in the Rikti portal room map, which has been bugged with disappearing items/mobs/etc since it was released in issue 9 (along with the villain shadow shard instance that does the same thing.)

They'd "make sure things worked right?" Really? Bugs have a tendancy to sit, or to be "fixed" only to show back up an issue or two later. So you'll just have to understand my hesitancy with having them muck around with what's apparently - as I've pointed out before - a foundational characteristic of our characters.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Ok, so all of that is opinion, which I could clearly counter with "The irony in this case is that some people see the biggest weakness of the game -that one of the biggest parts of super hero lore and mechanics is ignored or relegated to "costume" status as a strength that needs to be maintained."

But again, that would just be opinion. One that clearly isn't only shared by one person, just as yours isn't. I -can't- believe that in a game this awesome, with a development team as great as this one is, and players as fun, creative, and passionate about the game we all are, there isn't some creative compromise or approach we can take that would satisfy us all. THAT'S what we should be discusssing here.

I don't know how to make this more clear...


THE IDEA OF ORIGN BUFFS WAS ONE IDEA OF HOW TO MAKE ORIGINS MATTER MORE, AND HAS BEEN DROPPED FROM THE SUGGESTION ONCE VALID PROBLEMS WERE POINTED OUT. Please people, move on and quit acting like giving orign buffs was the only point, or even the main point brought up in this thread.

Just like they continued to agree with the wisdom of their decisions for how PVP should originally work, or how characters should never be allowed to "respec"? The devs in this game listen to players, and do their best to make all players happy. If they hear players like myself and others ask for something with a well explained reason why they want it, and hear players like yourself explain your fears for that, they work to find an answer. PVP (both its inclusion and subsequent redesign) and the introduction of respecs, both show that they KNOW that things aren't perfect, and that player input is listened to. Not all players can always be fully satisfied, but I genuinely believe that 9 out of 10 times, those of us who look for a middle ground find it in the devs responses, and the game is better for it.


Except that, as pointed out in here, Preatoria apparently proves your assertion above wrong. The devs specifically injected origin-gated content into the missions there.

I wasn't even aware of that, and if they started adding more things like that, I'd be entirely happy. As I said, buffs were just -one- idea. Arcs was really the major focus of the intial post, and unique content/roles/experiences in arcs like they've added in Preatoria would be AWESOME.

Reading Good. Try READING my post.

I think you've missed my point... again. Which as an observation is indeed "pointless".

First Point: If the developers wanted to, and they took the time and devoted the resources, I'm pretty sure they could make whatever changes they want to, to the game.

Second Point: If they did make said changes to the game they'd make sure the game functioned and was playable--obviously the game would shut down if they didn't.

Second Point is pointless, considering the stance on the First Point is 'The Devs do not want to change origins, and are happy with them as they are now. Most of the playerbase is too.'

I think I'm done here, really.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Tech, not trying to be a jerk, but don't get so upset. This should just be a discussion.

Do you have any data that shows that the majority of the player base is against origins being given a more prominent role in the game?

Do you have evidence the devs dont?

So far a pretty sizeable group seems to exist on either side, with the vast majorty on both -agreeing- that the role shouldn't be game changing or penalize previous choices. The disagreement seems to be primarily how/if that could be achieved.

And given that the devs -originally- did have origins playing a bigger role, can we say for sure they wouldn't LIKE to find a way to make them more prominent and still have us all happy?

So...the Magical Empathy Defender, has no powers that does damage? Not even one power from the secondary, that you're required to take? And it's the magical influence that makes magical fire burn just a little hotter than normal fire.

But, okay A reason to make Origin's more significant in game, because even the text for the origins says there's more to them than just how you got your powers.

Mutants are feared...hated...let's get enemies out there that aggro on mutants like they had 3 aggro auras! Have mutants actually live up to what their description says about them.

How's that?

To circle back to what many have repeatedly tried to point out - so now my Mutant Blaster, made over six years ago, no longer understands how far from enemies she needs to stand to avoid aggro? She draws more aggro than my Magic Fire Tank, made the same day?

If these issues were something I needed to take into account at character creation, I probably would have made different choices. To ask me to deal with these unintended consequences now, 6+ years later, is not something I want.

As someone who has almost exclusively mutant toons because origins have meant so little and it was the origin where I knew where the shops were, etc. I might get a little annoyed if every two minutes my characters were always getting ambushed through out the city.

I WOUDLN'T mind some missions where, say, NPCs that were rescued by me mentioned something like "don't think this changes my opinion of mutants, you freak" or if a contact gave me an enemy group that tended to focus on me, even over a taunting tank, during -that mission- or something. But this would need to be in very specific situations (specific missions against specific enemy groups, or specific areas of certain zones, etc.) or it could easily be overwhelming.

I COULD see this fitting more in line with certain zones offering unique things to certain origins (Croatoa or Dark Astoria having a scattered NPC mob that attacks magic origin toons, PI having a certain mob that focuses on Tech toons, IP having a mob that focuses on natural toons, Founders Falls with Science, etc. since those zones sort of have the "theme" of that origin going on, but again, it should be a rare occurence if they did this. Maybe even something more in line with a zone event.

hmm...there's an idea.




WHAT IF THE WAY THAT THEY BROUGHT ORIGINS MORE IN TO PLAY WAS WITH ORIGIN-SPECIFIC ZONES EVENTS?

For example (and these are just off the cusp, not actual suggested events)

Anti-mutant riot in Skyway
* An anti-mutant riot in Skyway where mutant/natural orign heroes work together to try to protect NPCS while rioting waves of enemies tried to attack them under the belief they were mutants.

Magical battle in Dark Astoria
*A "mystical battle" in Dark Astoria where magical heroes stop the spread of the darkness curse to all of Paragon and temporarily end the curse in DA for 1 day,

Techno-virus attack in PI
* A technological threat in PI where science and tech heroes work together to save the city from destruction by a living technology infesting the city.


Or come up with one event for each of the five origin instead of pairing them. You could even add one for epics, say an all out Void Stalker assault breaks out and only Khelds can act to stop it, etc.

You could have these events give special drops or rewards, maybe special costume pieces, maybe special merits to BUY costume pieces from a special tailor (that way ANY origin could get any of the pieces by getting merits from their zone events and spending them at that tailor) or maybe something as simple as special origin based inspirations (the same buffs from the insps regardless of their orign, but only usable by a given origin?) Unique, more powerful inspirations could actually be a simple, great motivator to participate, as could merits/access to special costume pieces, etc. Make these like Rikti and zombie Raids: all levels welcomed, and this could be a great!

Could be an interesting way to motivate people to "think about" their origin as if it had an effect every once in a while, yet in no way penalize ANYONE for ever having chosen an origin before or force anyone who doesn't care about orgins to participate.

If you linked it to origin-specific contacts, the events could be triggered when a team completes the final arc of an origin-specific contact.

Would that sort of origin-based content bother anyone?

I didn't mean all enemies.

I meant, let's make certain enemy groups (or have existing ones) that target spicific origins a little more readily.

I'm not saying all enemies hate mutants more. I'm saying have a group out there that targets mutants because they hate mutants, and have similar groups that hate the others.

Really sums up well how I feel about this.


This will do far, far more harm than it will do good. It's a bad way to make origins meaningful, and a good way to anger your customers.

Not being a jerk, jut mis-reading when I'm being upset Trust me, you'd KNOW if you'd upset me...

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Lol, fair enough. :-D
And great picture, by the way.






Ok, I really think that it's getting tough to tell what ideas people are responding to. Only one of the ideas thrown out about how this could work would effect Min/Maxing and that's been dropped from the suggestion, unless there are side effects of some other ideas I haven't considered, which is entirely possible. So can we do this from here on out? Place a
"re: ______" right at the start of your post, so we know what method of bringing in origin content you're referring to.

For example...


RE: ORIGIN SPECIFIC CONTACTS AND ZONE EVENTS

I thought about this more last night, and I -REALLY- believe this could address everyone's problems, fears, and desires fairly. If you had five contacts that ran similar, perhaps even an intertwined arcs, but with each one focusing on one "origin" and an appropriate new enemy group in their storyline, culminating at the completion of the arc with the triggering of an "origin specific" zone event, I think you'd nail this. No one would have to participate that didn't want to in either the arc or the event (anymore than you have to participate in, say, a Superadine raid) and yet the game would be "acknowledging" origins with more than lip service every once in a while. A simple message would go out that a "____zone event is happening in _____" just like they do for Rikti Raids, zombie raids, superadine raids, etc. For ease, you could "combine" two similar origins for some of the in-zone events, so natural and mutant, tech and science, leaving magic on its own. The zone events shouldn't be "zone-wide" so people could ignore it, just like a Superadine raid or a Miner's Strike. The raid could be a "culmination" of the arc, perhaps even after completing the NEXT to the last mission of the arc, setting you up for the climax. Something similar to the spawning of Babbage. So if the science/tech arcs were about an alien enemy group trying to "absorb" all of our techology maybe the zone event would be fighting "techno-infected" citizens in PI before they get ahold of Portal Corp technology, or if the mutant/natural arcs were about a "humans only/mutant supremacy" storyline, the zone event could be a riot in one area against "suspected" mutants that you have to protect for the duration.


If you WANTED you could give a special "reward" for participation in the event, but it would have to be the SAME reward for every event, to keep things balanced and prevent penalization for any previous origin choices. My ideas were either a special type of inspiration that was rarer and more powerful or unique, or a type of merit/ticket that could be spent at a single unique store called "Genesis" that specializes in "unique costumes and weaponry" selling unique origin themed costume pieces (though all its pieces would be useable/purchasable by any origin, perhaps with slightly different names.) These costume pieces would just be another form of unlockable costume pieces then, which already exist in the game. Maybe it would even be an alternate way to unlock some of the -existing- pieces earlier in the game like rulaaru blades etc.

So, can anyone see any problems with this approach? It would remove the feeling that origins mean nothing to those of us who are bothered, but in no way affect min/maxing or penalize previous choices we've made or restrict costumes/buffs to any specific origin.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Don't confuse "origin locked" with "unlockable," though. The way I'm reading it (and I agree about the unlockables - I end up forgetting about some of them, haven't done Virdian ever, etc. though I seem to do more of them than you) the Origin locked contacts are, essentially, "everyone" versions of Kheld and VEAT arcs. You get to run the Kheld arcs if you're a Kheld. You get to (for instance) fight Crey to keep them from capturing and using your mutation in a new batch of Paragon Protector clones, or keep the Sky Raiders from stealing and using the tech you came up with and putting it on the international black market and so forth.

Even for 7 year old character, these would be available (through Ouroboros and/or the last few arcs.)

See my Guides and Tutorials

Well, I can actually comment on this part, as there is a 'problem' I have with the game and origins.

The way I see it is, we have enemies that are magic. We have enemies that are science. We have enemies that are natural. And a lot of this is reflected in their content, their powers and their stats. But there's a gap that seems to limit the full effect of origins. We, as characters, have no impact or feel any difference from a mystic energy blast or a tech energy blast. That my character is natural doesn't mean squat when meta powers should be suppressed yet I somehow lose my ability to swing a sword.

What I'd like is for origins to actually *do* something in that respect, not so much that you're getting a buff or that you can't choose what it is, but that you should be doing stuff that makes sense for the origin itself. Maybe that Circle of Thorn's hold doesn't last as long or is reduced in effect because I'm a mutant. Or that the mutations of the Devouring Earth can be suppressed by the powers of science so they can't pull up their little pet buffs right off. Or *something*!

Of course, since this is 'new', this should be optional to turn on. So if your character is tech but don't think he should have the effects he does against the Crey and Rikti, you can simply choose not to turn it on.

Of course, I think there should be other 'stuff' you can manipulate to get various effects with the use of origin.

So if you just choose your origin at random or for buying enhancements at stores, just don't use it. If you choose the origin for concept, then you might actually find your technology doing technological stuff. If your complaint is you couldn't min/max from the get go and have your mutant Elec/Elec Brute do what someone else's natural Elec/Elec Brute can do vs Rikti, then tough. Reroll and get over it.

I'm sorry but I have a problem with your definition of "sizable". At most all I have seen is one or two dozen people talking about this out of tens of thousands of players. A "minute fraction" is a more accurate description of the number of people concerned about how origins work.

Yes we can. If origins was that important to the devs they wouldn't have scrapped it in the first place.

So you've talked to tens of thousands of players about origins?

More likely, you havent even TEAMED with tens of thousands of players, and of the minority of players whom you've interacted with whether in game or in the boards, a minority of them have expressed a desire for origins to matter more. Probably not many MORE of the minority in those conversations expressed disagreement.

Meaning at best, most players are silent on the issue, in your experience.

Now, in a smaller, more targeted sampling size, ie. this discussion, where people who are participating are more likely to have an opinion on it (and are STILL only a vast minority of even -that- group) you have several for, and several with concerns about, origins playing a more important role. So if this discussion specifically about origins were somehow taken as a sample of what you might find across the board in the game, a large number of people would desire, if not just be supportive of such a feature, and a larger number may have valid concerns about it and how it could be implemented.


That doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever.

I decided it wasn't worth my time add in a pool at the time I built my house. It was known, however, that my intial plans for a pool were included in the blueprints and in my hiring. Meaning I clearly originally wanted a pool. There were several concerns including time, money, and safety of my young children that kept me from putting it in at the time.

It is now three years later and I still haven't built my pool.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't -LIKE- a pool, if I thought my family and kids actually wanted it badly, and I could see a way that it could be done cheap enough and safe enough to ease my concerns.

Your statement makes zero logical sense in the same regard when it comes to origins and the devs.

Epic failure on your part.

1. I never claimed to have talked to nor teamed with tens of thousands of players. What I actually said is

and that 1 or 2 dozen people I did see talking about this idea is over 7 years of playing the game.

2. You are the one that is claiming there are a sizable number of people debating this issue when there is no evidence to support that statement.


Yeah that argument gets used a lot when someone is miffed that people don't agree their idea is the best thing since sliced bread.

1. "-out of- tens of thousands of players" implies that youve interacted with them. If you haven't, then of COURSE you haven't seen anyone talking about it. That's like me saying
"I've only heard 100 people express that they need more money out of all the people in the world!" Well, If you've only really interacted with 1000 people, then 100 of them feeling a given way is pretty much the only ratio you can go on, since you havent any idea how the other billions feel about it. Absence of data isn't data. Even more so, you REALLY only have an accurate ratio of the percentage of people who felt that way out of all the people you've actually heard discussing it, an even smaller number than those whom you've interacted with. Your statement is a useless statement since it's comparing something you have a rough statistic on (x number of people have talked about this in my presence) to a statistic that has no direct relationship(there are thousands of players.)


Except there is evidence. In just three days of being posted, we've had quite a few people in just one thread voice their desire that they wish to see origins matter more. Not all agree on how, but the desire has been expressed by more than a few. Now, if you assume even 1% of the player base has read this thread, then you're looking at a rather large number of players, arguably at -least- in the multiple hundreds, who agree enough to actually make a written statement. Since there would likely be many more who would like it but NOT care enough to make a statement, that number, at its lowest, would probably be even higher. We aren't talking a dozen people here.


Unless my thread just got REALLY lucky and all four people in the game who felt this way stumbled upon it. And since most of the players I know (and I know quite a few, since Im a very active member of the Justice community) don't even read the forums on a semi-regular basis, I'm betting that's not the case. Even then, this is just anecdotal evidence since neither of us have actual statistical data to base it on. I'll agree that, from here on out, I'llbe speaking only in terms of participants in this discussion when I make claims about ratios. Why don't you do the same.


That, my friend, is even WORSE logic. It's called Ad hominen and, possibly, some Bifurcation. Tell you what, if you feel like actually discussing in a logical way, get back to me. Otherwise, I'll pass on the personal attacks and anecdotal evidence thrown out as refutation.

Oh, and if you haven't noticed, not only have I, more than once in this thread, said that other people had excellent points about problems with my initial idea, I've ammended my initial suggestion and actually encouraged those who disagreed with it to continue to discuss so we can find a workable suggestion for all. Ive also called others brilliant for coming up with alternative approaches to my suggestion. That's right. I used the word "brilliant."

I'd hardly say that those are the traits of someone "miffed" cause their idea wasn't lauded as golden.