City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

What is considered "ebil" anymore?

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-01-14 17:27 in The Market and Inventions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Gale View Post
Yes, how dare they notice opportunity when other people are impatient. Just because someone got a common IO recipe that sells for 75k at an NPC store and offered it up for sale for 100 inf doesn't mean you should buy it for that much.
Impatient doesn't have anything to do with 0 items for sale and the cost of decent recipes skyrocketing. If someone wants a purple recipe then they have to bid as high as they can and hope it's enough for the greedy seller. Or, by chance, do you still sell yours for 100mil or less? Doubt it. Thank you have a great day....

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
Impatient doesn't have anything to do with 0 items for sale and the cost of decent recipes skyrocketing. If someone wants a purple recipe
Purple recipes are just "decent" now? I thought they were the highest-bonus IOs in the game that only dropped rarely and could only be reliably created after about a month of running Tip missions.

Quote:
If someone wants a purple recipe then they have to bid as high as they can and hope it's more than everyone else who wants one has bid.
Fix'd

Quote:
Or, by chance, do you still sell yours for 100mil or less? Doubt it.
If the highest bid on a purple IO I want to sell is 450mil, I am literally unable to sell it for less than that on the market. If I stand around and offer it for 100 mil, I would not blame a person who buys it off of me and immediately turns around and sells it on the market.



Character index

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Gale View Post
Purple recipes are just "decent" now? I thought they were the highest-bonus IOs in the game that only dropped rarely and could only be reliably created after about a month of running Tip missions.



Fix'd



If the highest bid on a purple IO I want to sell is 450mil, I am literally unable to sell it for less than that on the market. If I stand around and offer it for 100 mil, I would not blame a person who buys it off of me and immediately turns around and sells it on the market.
My point. Why does it matter what the market says? You are not compelled by the market to sell yours for the highest amount on the market. You are literally unable to? Wow, weak minded people 'round here. Monkey see, monkey do i think the saying goes....

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
My point. Why does it matter what the market says? You are not compelled by the market to sell yours for the highest amount on the market. You are literally unable to? Wow, weak minded people 'round here. Monkey see, monkey do i think the saying goes....
Do you know how the market interface works?

If I stick something down for 5 Inf the highest bid still gets it. So in the case of purples they'll still sell for whatever crazy, whacked-out price the buyers are willing to pay for them.

I sell nearly everything at 5 inf (including the only 2 purples I ever earned, one of which was a crap sleep one) and they still went for way more than that. One for around 50 million (this was back in i11 or so) and the crap one recently for 100,000 or so (it was the chance for placate )

So unless you're talking about setting up some form of off-market charity shop channel I cannot see your point (in fact I'm willing to bet that if you did try and sell a desirable Purple on a channel a bidding war would break out and you'd still end up with about the same price as via the Markets interface).

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA View Post
Do you know how the market interface works?

If I stick something down for 5 Inf the highest bid still gets it. So in the case of purples they'll still sell for whatever crazy, whacked-out price the buyers are willing to pay for them.

I sell nearly everything at 5 inf (including the only 2 purples I ever earned, one of which was a crap sleep one) and they still went for way more than that. One for around 50 million (this was back in i11 or so) and the crap one recently for 100,000 or so (it was the chance for placate )

So unless you're talking about setting up some form of off-market charity shop channel I cannot see your point (in fact I'm willing to bet that if you did try and sell a desirable Purple on a channel a bidding war would break out and you'd still end up with about the same price as via the Markets interface).
You probably see how the progression of the market hating will spiral off into odd never going to happen imaginary scenarios as people continue to try to shine light into the dark recesses of market hate "thought". The replies will get sillier and sillier as it follows its old patterns.

total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

I think at this point the only reasonable course of action is to throw my hands up and stop arguing and just enjoy the delicious tears.

@Quasadu

"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick

 

Posted

If I wasn't such a lazy marketeer and had the billions that the Crazy 88s burn, I think I'd catch the "you guys are ruining the market!" posters and offer them 100 mill and a link to a good coupla guides if they'd promise to go away and make use of the inf and knowledge I just pointed them to.

I had originally thought I'd offer a billion, but that might encourage them to not bother.

Maybe anther SG could start up under that theme.

Edit: had to add this too. Last week I put down some low bids on the Kinetic Combat triple, level 30, for my stalker. All previous sales were at something like 110,000,000 and there were currently none available. I got one for about 45 mill yesterday.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5 View Post
If I wasn't such a lazy marketeer and had the billions that the Crazy 88s burn, I think I'd catch the "you guys are ruining the market!" posters and offer them 100 mill and a link to a good coupla guides if they'd promise to go away and make use of the inf and knowledge I just pointed them to.

I had originally thought I'd offer a billion, but that might encourage them to not bother.

Maybe anther SG could start up under that theme.

Edit: had to add this too. Last week I put down some low bids on the Kinetic Combat triple, level 30, for my stalker. All previous sales were at something like 110,000,000 and there were currently none available. I got one for about 45 mill yesterday.
Guides.... Play and sell. Kinda simple. If everyone needed guides, niches, tricks or anything like that then how do i have the stuff i have? I don't use anything other than selling drops.... Hard, huh?

 

Posted

I don't think seeing an opportunity and taking advantage of it is wrong. People do it in real life, too. In the CoX universe marketeering is pretty much providing a service no matter how you do it:

1) "Flipping": You buy huge numbers of certain items at a low price and relist them higher to make profit. How does this differ from real life stock merchants? They buy the stuff, put all of them for sale at one place and refuse to sell at a price that doesn't make them profit. Why aren't they evil while marketeers are?
ETA: For those who didn't bother to think through this themselves, the flippers are being patient so that their customer doesn't have to. They bid low and wait, you pay them because they waited for you. Simple enough?


2) Crafting: You craft stuff so that lazy people don't have to. Again, you provide a service for which you are paid.

The whole point of this is (something anti-marketeers can not grasp for some reason) that people in this game have absurd amounts of influence. If 100mil is chump change for them, they won't hesitate to throw a bid of 50mil on something that is going for 30-40mil if a bid around those figures doesn't get one instantly. And as was pointed out earlier, it is flat out impossible to sell certain items at low prices. For example, I'd wager a billion inf on a Gladiator's Armor (lvl 50) unique selling for two billion even if you listed it at 1 inf. Most purples would also go for more than a couple of hundred million even if listed at 1 inf. Flat out impossible to sell them under the "going rate" unless you have piles of them to crash the price with.

I think it is funny when people complain about the sellers when it's actually the buyers who are to blame. If the seller's price is too much (i.e. no one is willing to pay that much) he has to lower the price because there is nothing compelling you to buy that except your own entitlement. IOs are not like food, we don't need them to survive, so if people are willing to pay that much, the price is fair no matter which way you put it.

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
Guides.... Play and sell. Kinda simple. If everyone needed guides, niches, tricks or anything like that then how do i have the stuff i have? I don't use anything other than selling drops.... Hard, huh?
Obviously "play and sell" doesn't work for most people, or we wouldn't get the constant whining that things are too expensive. The "play and sell" method is based on luck and luck only, while actually getting your hands dirty and doing flipping/crafting/arbitrage only takes a bit of extra work but ends up paying out quite a bit more than simply selling drops could ever do.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
What's wrong with just selling drops obtained? Like i said, i have 2 accounts of purpled toons, soft capd defenses, high valued enh in storage, several purples recipes and about 11 7.5 lotg level 25s recipes on a toon. I have used not 1 scheme, niche, flipped or done anything but sell items. So, what's the point of all the other BS?
I play the market because the market is playable. The inefficiencies built into its design make it the best reward system in the game for me in terms of time and effort. The fact that the best loot in the game can be traded provides my incentive to marketeer. If you want players like me to stop, then one of those things has to change.

FWIW though, my intentions aren't malicious. I don't delete stuff or try to corner markets or anything like that. It isn't necessary.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2
What's wrong with just selling drops obtained? Like i said, i have 2 accounts of purpled toons, soft capd defenses, high valued enh in storage, several purples recipes and about 11 7.5 lotg level 25s recipes on a toon. I have used not 1 scheme, niche, flipped or done anything but sell items. So, what's the point of all the other BS?
I used to be fine based on drops only, but then my standards for "good" IO builds became higher while available time for playing diminished. It just is no longer feasible for me to get these good builds in a reasonable amount of time (for me) based on just drops, and believe me, I'm patient. So, I choose marketeering.

This choice has helped me make my gaming experience into what I want it to be: no more grinding TFs or farms in order to get the stuff I want, but rather I can do a TF every now and then if I happen to have time or do missions without having to worry about their rewards. It just makes the game more enjoyable for me, and believe it or not, I'm not doing marketeer to "crap on someone else's gaming experience". I can't even remember the last time I did flipping, most of the time I just craft stuff because it's easy and fast (I'm lazy) and that way I provide a service for which I'm paid. Fair game, in my opinion.

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
Absurdly to whom? You? 4k is still over what the DEVS and the NPC values it at. Now, if people wanna jack up the rates of it, well, that's a totally different story. Greed runs the market just as much as impatient people.
So if someone's government has a standing offer to buy all metals regardless of type or quality at ten cents a pound no one should be allowed to buy or sell any type of metal for more?

Yeah, good luck with that.

Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
So if someone's government has a standing offer to buy all metals regardless of type or quality at ten cents a pound no one should be allowed to buy or sell any type of metal for more?

Yeah, good luck with that.
True. I guess you also like paying 3-4 per gallon of gas,too. But if you would rather pay more then go ahead and offer them 10$ per gallon the next time you fill up. 200$ for a tank of gas should be fine, too, huh?

It's not that someone goes to WW saying, hmm, i WANT to pay 50mil for a numina recipe. They HAVE to in order to obtain it. The rates have gone up in stupid %'s in teh past year. And people think its because someone just wants to go to WW and pay the going rates. Yea, someone may throw up an extra million or 10, but that doesnt mean EVERYONE wants to or can. But, the market can't see that part of the equation. All it can see is an ever increasing rate due to people placing the sells for the "going rate" or the last couple sold and assuming everyone wants to pay that.

Dont get it, you say. Well, that argument is just a lazy one. People play this game to make their toons cool and fun to play. BUT, in order to get certain things then they HAVE to rely on the market and whatever is going on in it. Not all players are the same and can afford the same things. Think about someone other than yourselves every now and then.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
True. I guess you also like paying 3-4 per gallon of gas,too. But if you would rather pay more then go ahead and offer them 10$ per gallon the next time you fill up. 200$ for a tank of gas should be fine, too, huh?
This is really a non-sequitur.

Here's the thing. Imagine, if you will, that gas stations were required to sell gas for, say, $0.99, because that's a Fair Price in the estimation of eryq2, Lord Of Fair Pricing.

You know what would happen? People would buy ALL the gas at $0.99, and resell it at higher prices. Because gas is worth more than that.

Quote:
It's not that someone goes to WW saying, hmm, i WANT to pay 50mil for a numina recipe. They HAVE to in order to obtain it.
Riiiight.

Okay, let's try this from the top.

There is supply. There is demand. Some people HAVE numina recipes. Some people WANT numina recipes. If at price X, more people WANT the recipes than HAVE the recipes, then the price will increase. If at price X, more people HAVE the recipes than WANT the recipes, then the price will decrease.

This is not some purely arbitrary thing people make up.

Quote:
The rates have gone up in stupid %'s in teh past year.
Yes, yes they have. When you add a huge amount of money to a system, prices inflate. AE exploits have added trillions of inf to the market.

Quote:
And people think its because someone just wants to go to WW and pay the going rates.
"Going rates" are what they are because there's at least as many people willing to pay them as there are people willing to sell at them.

Quote:
Yea, someone may throw up an extra million or 10, but that doesnt mean EVERYONE wants to or can.
Right. That is because there are not as many numina's recipes as there are people who would like to have one. If there are as many of something as there are people who would like to have it, it sells for 1-1000 or so; look at, say, computer viruses, or polycarbon.

Quote:
But, the market can't see that part of the equation. All it can see is an ever increasing rate due to people placing the sells for the "going rate" or the last couple sold and assuming everyone wants to pay that.
Not really.

I have a lowbie who does very little but sell Karma -KB procs, in the level 10-20 or so range. I leave stacks of bids up on a large range of them, and I list them all for 12,345,678. People come along and bid 15-25M. Out of the last 40-50 I've sold, I've sold I think two for under 13M.

I am not raising my listing prices to match the "going rate". I list at the same price, every time.

Perhaps more importantly, let's look more closely at:

Quote:
assuming everyone wants to pay that.
(emphasis mine)

No, merely assuming enough people want to pay that -- meaning, it'll sell at that price. Because there are more people who are willing to pay that much than there are available items.

Quote:
Dont get it, you say. Well, that argument is just a lazy one. People play this game to make their toons cool and fun to play. BUT, in order to get certain things then they HAVE to rely on the market and whatever is going on in it.
There are no IO recipes or salvage on the market you can't get without going to the market.

Quote:
Not all players are the same and can afford the same things.
Right.

Quote:
Think about someone other than yourselves every now and then.
I do. But instead of merely empathizing with them and assuming reality should mold itself for their convenience, or thinking about exactly one person at a time, I think about many people.

And all of them want that numina's proc, and there are a lot more of them than there are procs.

The marketplace resolves this by letting the price rise until the number of people who want procs at the price they sell for roughly matches supply. And if the price is too high, it does go down. I found a really lucrative-looking niche, stuff was selling for 25-40M. I listed a bunch at 25M, sold about half of them... and then the price dropped to about 8-10M. Whoops. Because it turns out, there was more supply than demand, and the price adapted to this.

If there really were enough supply of numina's procs, the prices would drop.

 

Posted

Ebil? No idea, I rarely sit on more then 5b at a time.

I spend what I make, IOing new 50s or upgrading existing ones to better sets. My networth of my toons would take to long to count, maket pvp is something done between taskforces and during dead time.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post

It's not that someone goes to WW saying, hmm, i WANT to pay 50mil for a numina recipe. They HAVE to in order to obtain it. The rates have gone up in stupid %'s in teh past year. And people think its because someone just wants to go to WW and pay the going rates. Yea, someone may throw up an extra million or 10, but that doesnt mean EVERYONE wants to or can. But, the market can't see that part of the equation. All it can see is an ever increasing rate due to people placing the sells for the "going rate" or the last couple sold and assuming everyone wants to pay that.
Duh, does anyone actually *want* to pay any sum of [insert currency] for anything? Some people might know it's better for their own interest in the game / real life economy / whatever if people actually do transaction with currency, but I'd wager most people still don't *want* to pay. It's a whole other thing to think "hey, I want that Numina and I'm *willing* to pay this much for it". Yes, I'd rather pay less for that piece of Numina, but if I do really want it, I'm going to pay enough that I'll get it so I'm not complaining about the prices.

Perceived worth = going rate. It's not made up stuff, really. If the perceived worth of an item for many people is higher than what the perceived worth is for you, it doesn't mean people are doing it only to make you pay. If it costs too much, don't buy it. Simple. For as long as you refuse to pay the "going rate" there are people who value the item higher than you and thus are willing to pay more and should get it first.

Besides, it's silly to argue about stuff being expensive. It takes 22 missions over four days to get a LotG +rech which you can sell for at least 100mil and then fund a decent IO build. Do that a few times and you can get a really good IO build. If you complain about purples, that's another kettle of fish because they're supposed to be very rare = demand >>>>>>> supply = high prices.

Quote:
Think about someone other than yourselves every now and then.
I do every day. I think often and warmly of those people who make marketeering so easy.

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
This is really a non-sequitur.

Here's the thing. Imagine, if you will, that gas stations were required to sell gas for, say, $0.99, because that's a Fair Price in the estimation of eryq2, Lord Of Fair Pricing.

You know what would happen? People would buy ALL the gas at $0.99, and resell it at higher prices. Because gas is worth more than that.



Riiiight.

Okay, let's try this from the top.

There is supply. There is demand. Some people HAVE numina recipes. Some people WANT numina recipes. If at price X, more people WANT the recipes than HAVE the recipes, then the price will increase. If at price X, more people HAVE the recipes than WANT the recipes, then the price will decrease.

This is not some purely arbitrary thing people make up.



Yes, yes they have. When you add a huge amount of money to a system, prices inflate. AE exploits have added trillions of inf to the market.



"Going rates" are what they are because there's at least as many people willing to pay them as there are people willing to sell at them.



Right. That is because there are not as many numina's recipes as there are people who would like to have one. If there are as many of something as there are people who would like to have it, it sells for 1-1000 or so; look at, say, computer viruses, or polycarbon.



Not really.

I have a lowbie who does very little but sell Karma -KB procs, in the level 10-20 or so range. I leave stacks of bids up on a large range of them, and I list them all for 12,345,678. People come along and bid 15-25M. Out of the last 40-50 I've sold, I've sold I think two for under 13M.

I am not raising my listing prices to match the "going rate". I list at the same price, every time.

Perhaps more importantly, let's look more closely at:



(emphasis mine)

No, merely assuming enough people want to pay that -- meaning, it'll sell at that price. Because there are more people who are willing to pay that much than there are available items.



There are no IO recipes or salvage on the market you can't get without going to the market.



Right.



I do. But instead of merely empathizing with them and assuming reality should mold itself for their convenience, or thinking about exactly one person at a time, I think about many people.

And all of them want that numina's proc, and there are a lot more of them than there are procs.

The marketplace resolves this by letting the price rise until the number of people who want procs at the price they sell for roughly matches supply. And if the price is too high, it does go down. I found a really lucrative-looking niche, stuff was selling for 25-40M. I listed a bunch at 25M, sold about half of them... and then the price dropped to about 8-10M. Whoops. Because it turns out, there was more supply than demand, and the price adapted to this.

If there really were enough supply of numina's procs, the prices would drop.
1) It's ok to call me what you wish. .99 cent gas would help this country's economy for far more than it helping oil companys at the going rates of 3-5 dollars a gallon.

2) When gas was .99 cents per gallon, i don't ever remember anyone i knew or ever seen at the pumps hoarding it and reselling at the flea markets. I don't use any more gas now than i ever did so i don't see teh demand for it to increase every year to the point that working people can't even go shopping once and a while due to gas having to be treated like a regular househould bill now. For the exec of one oil company to say, "it's only an annual increase of 700$ a year", is ignorant on his part. Given that insurance companys and power companys are thinking the same thing.

3) I said numina recipes. Not the proc. I sold one a few minutes ago for 75mil. Last 5 were 3 in the 70s and 2 in the 50s. I listed mine for far lass than either one.

4) It's getting to the point to where i dont even want to sell good recipes on the market just in case i need one later. Unless its stuff i dont use on toons. I can get 400mil for one now to just turn around and have to pay 700-1 bill in a couple months from now the way things are going. Dont make sense. And if other people think that way, its killing the availability in the market only hurting the rates more.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
1) It's ok to call me what you wish. .99 cent gas would help this country's economy for far more than it helping oil companys at the going rates of 3-5 dollars a gallon.
No, it wouldn't. It would just mean people would use more until there wasn't any.

Quote:
2) When gas was .99 cents per gallon, i don't ever remember anyone i knew or ever seen at the pumps hoarding it and reselling at the flea markets.
That is because, when gas was 99 cents per gallon, everything was cheaper, and 99 cents was actually a pretty decent price. Now, $2-4 is a pretty decent price -- in that, if you set the price any lower, people would try to buy more gas than there is to buy, and there wouldn't be any supply because people would have to lose money to sell at that lower price.

Quote:
I don't use any more gas now than i ever did so i don't see teh demand for it to increase every year to the point that working people can't even go shopping once and a while due to gas having to be treated like a regular househould bill now. For the exec of one oil company to say, "it's only an annual increase of 700$ a year", is ignorant on his part. Given that insurance companys and power companys are thinking the same thing.
...

Okay, just a quick sanity check. You do know that gasoline is not created by magical fairies, who will create as much as you ask for and all you have to do is clap your hands and believe, right?

There are costs to obtaining gas. The prices we see in the US are not merely not-high, they're artificially low because we spend a huge amount of money subsidizing it. The costs of obtaining gas have increased since ten or twenty years ago -- both because the real difficulty of obtaining it has increased, and because inflation has made dollars worth less.

Quote:
3) I said numina recipes. Not the proc. I sold one a few minutes ago for 75mil. Last 5 were 3 in the 70s and 2 in the 50s. I listed mine for far lass than either one.
Doesn't matter; you could be talking about apples, horseshoes, or kittens. Same basic reality check applies. If you set the price too low, everything sells out. Lots of people want the numina set. Therefore, it's valuable.

Quote:
4) It's getting to the point to where i dont even want to sell good recipes on the market just in case i need one later. Unless its stuff i dont use on toons. I can get 400mil for one now to just turn around and have to pay 700-1 bill in a couple months from now the way things are going. Dont make sense. And if other people think that way, its killing the availability in the market only hurting the rates more.
Again, yes, this is what happens when you print up huge amounts of money with no change in underlying availability of items.

This is just supply and demand. I think the component you're missing is that money, too, is a thing subject to supply and demand. If there's a ton of inf, inf becomes less valuable with respect to other things. When monkey farmers brought in trillions of inf, of course prices increased. There was a lot more inf chasing a lot fewer items.

Thing is, none of this has anything to do with sellers pricing things "too high". It has to do with markets doing what they always do -- gravitating towards a price at which supply meets demand. When prices are going up, it is because supply was lower than demand. When prices go down, it is because supply was higher than demand.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
1) It's ok to call me what you wish. .99 cent gas would help this country's economy for far more than it helping oil companys at the going rates of 3-5 dollars a gallon.
If you think that's bad you should see the price of gas here.

Quote:
2) When gas was .99 cents per gallon, i don't ever remember anyone i knew or ever seen at the pumps hoarding it and reselling at the flea markets.
That's because back then a gallon of gas was worth a dollar. See:

Quote:
I don't use any more gas now than i ever did so i don't see teh demand for it to increase every year to the point that working people can't even go shopping once and a while due to gas having to be treated like a regular househould bill now.
Who was it that said we should think about other people than ourselves? Oh, it was you. Maybe you don't use any more gas than before, but what about the number of people increasing? Surely that can't mean more people using cars, and consequently, more people using gas. Also keep in mind that there is not an infinite supply of gas on earth: this means that supply is constantly diminishing. Combine that with increasing supply and it's not hard to come to the conclusion that gas is now worth more.

An easy way to think about it. There are 100 pieces of currency total that people use for gas and 100 pieces of gas. Logically, their worth has to be equal so 1 piece of currency equals 1 piece of gas. What happens when the supply of gas has diminished to 50 pieces? Well, people still have 100 pieces of currency so a piece of gas is now worth 2 pieces of currency.

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
No, it wouldn't. It would just mean people would use more until there wasn't any.



That is because, when gas was 99 cents per gallon, everything was cheaper, and 99 cents was actually a pretty decent price. Now, $2-4 is a pretty decent price -- in that, if you set the price any lower, people would try to buy more gas than there is to buy, and there wouldn't be any supply because people would have to lose money to sell at that lower price.



...

Okay, just a quick sanity check. You do know that gasoline is not created by magical fairies, who will create as much as you ask for and all you have to do is clap your hands and believe, right?

There are costs to obtaining gas. The prices we see in the US are not merely not-high, they're artificially low because we spend a huge amount of money subsidizing it. The costs of obtaining gas have increased since ten or twenty years ago -- both because the real difficulty of obtaining it has increased, and because inflation has made dollars worth less.



Doesn't matter; you could be talking about apples, horseshoes, or kittens. Same basic reality check applies. If you set the price too low, everything sells out. Lots of people want the numina set. Therefore, it's valuable.



Again, yes, this is what happens when you print up huge amounts of money with no change in underlying availability of items.

This is just supply and demand. I think the component you're missing is that money, too, is a thing subject to supply and demand. If there's a ton of inf, inf becomes less valuable with respect to other things. When monkey farmers brought in trillions of inf, of course prices increased. There was a lot more inf chasing a lot fewer items.

Thing is, none of this has anything to do with sellers pricing things "too high". It has to do with markets doing what they always do -- gravitating towards a price at which supply meets demand. When prices are going up, it is because supply was lower than demand. When prices go down, it is because supply was higher than demand.
Gas isnt made by fairies? You dont say? WOW! Your intellegence astounds me. You apparently don't have a clue what increasing gas rates means for average people, either. Let me school you.

How do you figure people would use more because it's cheaper? That wasn't the case 10 years ago. People didn't just use up all the worlds gas and we had more money in our pockets, too. If the gas is cheaper, EVERYTHING is cheaper. Groceries and everything due to lower costs to get it to the stores. Also, people would be out spending more on other things helping the countries economy. Thats what happened when gas hit 4-5 dollars per gallon. It about crippled the US. People that dont make 100k per year (like myself) can't, with a sane mind, go out to the mall or movies and waste 50-100 bucks due to having to add an addition 200 dollars a month or better just for gas costs. Watch this summer what it does to the US again when it hits 4 bux per gallon....

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
Gas isnt made by fairies? You dont say? WOW! Your intellegence astounds me. You apparently don't have a clue what increasing gas rates means for average people, either. Let me school you.
Good luck.

I am totally aware of what increasing gas rates mean. However, they increase because of inflation and increased costs. It's not mean people magically increasing prices because they are mean.

Quote:
How do you figure people would use more because it's cheaper?
Basic economics. People are pretty good at figuring out what something costs, and whether they feel they can afford it. Cheaper gas means people drive more, take fewer buses, and so on.

Quote:
That wasn't the case 10 years ago.
Gas consumption was higher when gas was cheaper. A guy I know runs a bus company. You know what? When gas prices go up, his ticket sales go up with them. When gas prices go down, so do ticket sales.

Quote:
People that dont make 100k per year (like myself) can't, with a sane mind, go out to the mall or movies and waste 50-100 bucks due to having to add an addition 200 dollars a month or better just for gas costs.
EXACTLY. MY. POINT.

More expensive gas => less use of gas.
Less expensive gas => more use of gas.

If gas is cheap enough that use of gas exceeds available gas, we run out. Then there is no gas left. If gas is expensive enough that available gas exceeds use of gas, we run surplusses. Then people lower prices so they can sell their gas.

Seriously, this stuff works.

Gas prices do not come out of nowhere. Gas doesn't go to $4 a gallon because someone is mean to you. It goes to $4 a gallon because people want more gas than is available, so prices are raised so that demand drops. Then there's enough gas for the people who want it at that price.

This is really, really, consistent. This has happened in every economy in the entire world in the history of writing. If you set prices too high, you get surpluses. If you set them too low, you get shortages. If you let prices adapt to available supply and demand, supply tends to match demand, but prices fluctuate.

None of this is really debatable. Heck, in the middle of trying to argue against it, you proved the point by observing that you were less likely to do something recreational if gas prices were relatively high. That's exactly how it works.

Same thing happens in-game. Prices of IOs stabilize at a price where supply and demand roughly match at that price. If the price is too low for that, demand will be large, and people will start bidding more in the hopes of being the first person to get the next IO up on the market. If the price is too high for that, supply will be large, and people will start listing for less in the hopes of being the first person to sell an IO.

Obviously, everyone is aware that high gas prices make life hard for people who can't afford them. But gas stations which don't have any gas make life hard for people too, so we put up with supply-and-demand because it's more flexible and adaptible than rationing.

 

Posted

After reading the first couple of posts in this thread all I can say is

WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

Its a game drama queens, get over it!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by eryq2 View Post
I don't use any more gas now than i ever did so i don't see teh demand for it to increase every year to the point that working people can't even go shopping once and a while due to gas having to be treated like a regular househould bill now.
HAHAHAHAHA Priceless!
*YOU* don't use any more gas than you used to, therefore there has obviously been no increase in worldwide demand. Is your understanding of the CoH market this keen also?

Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
Good luck.

I am totally aware of what increasing gas rates mean. However, they increase because of inflation and increased costs. It's not mean people magically increasing prices because they are mean.



Basic economics. People are pretty good at figuring out what something costs, and whether they feel they can afford it. Cheaper gas means people drive more, take fewer buses, and so on.



Gas consumption was higher when gas was cheaper. A guy I know runs a bus company. You know what? When gas prices go up, his ticket sales go up with them. When gas prices go down, so do ticket sales.



EXACTLY. MY. POINT.

More expensive gas => less use of gas.
Less expensive gas => more use of gas.

If gas is cheap enough that use of gas exceeds available gas, we run out. Then there is no gas left. If gas is expensive enough that available gas exceeds use of gas, we run surplusses. Then people lower prices so they can sell their gas.

Seriously, this stuff works.

Gas prices do not come out of nowhere. Gas doesn't go to $4 a gallon because someone is mean to you. It goes to $4 a gallon because people want more gas than is available, so prices are raised so that demand drops. Then there's enough gas for the people who want it at that price.

This is really, really, consistent. This has happened in every economy in the entire world in the history of writing. If you set prices too high, you get surpluses. If you set them too low, you get shortages. If you let prices adapt to available supply and demand, supply tends to match demand, but prices fluctuate.

None of this is really debatable. Heck, in the middle of trying to argue against it, you proved the point by observing that you were less likely to do something recreational if gas prices were relatively high. That's exactly how it works.

Same thing happens in-game. Prices of IOs stabilize at a price where supply and demand roughly match at that price. If the price is too low for that, demand will be large, and people will start bidding more in the hopes of being the first person to get the next IO up on the market. If the price is too high for that, supply will be large, and people will start listing for less in the hopes of being the first person to sell an IO.

Obviously, everyone is aware that high gas prices make life hard for people who can't afford them. But gas stations which don't have any gas make life hard for people too, so we put up with supply-and-demand because it's more flexible and adaptible than rationing.
Was this country out of gas in the 90s when i was using 93 octane? And people overseas are still filling up their cars for 39 cents per tank in 2011. 39 cent sounds pretty good compared to 38 dollars or more....