What is considered "ebil" anymore?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-01-14 17:27 in The Market and Inventions
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Nope. I wrote what I meant and I meant what I wrote. I mean X's price relative to the average of stuff I want to buy. I already have plenty and can easily get more of most IOs except for purples and PvPs so my sales are mindful of savings towards those.|
Originally Posted by Berzerker_NA
Unless you're after sales badges.
Really, I think what you mean is that you only sell when the price is temporarily higher than usual. If absolute price were the issue, you'd probably think those IO's were worth keeping even if the price tripled. If you sell at a temporarily high price, then you know you can always buy the item back later, and have both the item, and the money. |
I would rather have them rotting in my SG bin than throw yet another 25M on these characters just in case I roll a new character later who can use them. But if their price was a greater percentage of the purples I will be looking for later, then I would sell them.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
My "philosophy on economy", so to say, has evolved into something quite funny. I have so much inf there is no point in selling high-end stuff because the only things I'd use sums of that kind for are, well, the same high-end stuff. This is why I store most purples, LotG +Rechs and the like, and only use influence to buy uncommon IOs and less expensive items. I do sell everything else, though, because I don't want to clog my inventory and it doesn't hurt me to turn back the next day and buy the thing I just sold if we're talking about figures under 50mil.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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It could also be argued that European gas taxes properly place the cost of large-scale government support of oil and gas development, not to mention highway projects, back onto the end users. A different way of looking at it.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Actually you have that reversed. Its expensive in Europe because its taxed to discourage use.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Yeah. The US prices are heavily subsidized. Which is a reasonable economic choice to make, or at least a conceivable one, as it's generally good for the economy for power and transport to be cheap. But they are, nonetheless, subsidized.
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Actually, I had nothing reversed. I made no statement at all about WHY gas is more expensive in Europe.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Actually you have that reversed. Its expensive in Europe because its taxed to discourage use.
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The Mentor Project
I think AF's point was that it's "taxed in Europe, thus more expensive" as opposed to "subsidized in the US, thus less expensive". In fact, I'm pretty sure it's both, but that the taxes in Europe are really just covering otherwise-hidden costs, and thus economically sane rather than punitive.
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E.U. $2.50/gal taxes|
Originally Posted by seebs
I think AF's point was that it's "taxed in Europe, thus more expensive" as opposed to "subsidized in the US, thus less expensive". In fact, I'm pretty sure it's both, but that the taxes in Europe are really just covering otherwise-hidden costs, and thus economically sane rather than punitive.
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U.S. $0.50/gal taxes
Bottom line the U.S. taxes gas at 50 cents a gallon give or take state to state. Its in a small select club of products with defacto federal sales tax. Europe taxes gas at about 2 euros a gallon or $2.50 per gallon. On the production side we have tax breaks for producing oil which are more or less inline with every other type of mining that we do.
The E.U. in general usually hits imported fuels with an additional set of taxes.
What people usually refer to as subsidies in the us are tax deductions for asset depreciation and resource depletion.
A) No i didnt have a clunker. I had a 2003 yamaha r1 and a 2007 gsxr 750. They both got 93 octane. And an occasional 107 gallon.
B) Everything in RL revolves around money just as with this games market. Everyone wants the most they can get regardless of who needs what.
Like i continue to say, it's the devs fault. Small minded people will continue to do what they see others do. Hence the increasing sell prices. You can blame buyers but if they aren't posted at certain heights, they can't be bought for that price.
The drop rates need to be adjusted on recipe drops. I don't know of anyone that farms more than i do. The amount of recipes in normal missions flat out suck. Other than common recipes and temp powers. Im not even referring to purples. Heck, i get more purples than orange recipes and 90% of the yellow recipes are air burst or something i can't even sell at the market so it gets deleted or vendored.
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"Prices are not driven by naturally high demand and low supply, but by greedy sellers and market manipulation."|
Originally Posted by eryq2
Like i continue to say, it's the devs fault. Small minded people will continue to do what they see others do. Hence the increasing sell prices. You can blame buyers but if they aren't posted at certain heights, they can't be bought for that price.
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| The drop rates need to be adjusted on recipe drops. I don't know of anyone that farms more than i do. The amount of recipes in normal missions flat out suck. Other than common recipes and temp powers. Im not even referring to purples. |
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| Heck, i get more purples than orange recipes and 90% of the yellow recipes are air burst or something i can't even sell at the market so it gets deleted or vendored. |
But, if greedy sellers and market manipulation drive prices, can't you get good prices on your common drops by selling them for more and manipulating people into buying them? And if greedy sellers and market manipulation drive prices, won't an increase in supply produce no benefit?
I have a hard time understanding how you can believe all the things you say at the same time.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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Its amazing the disconnect that happens here.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
"Prices are not driven by naturally high demand and low supply, but by greedy sellers and market manipulation."
"The solution to high prices is an increase in supply." "Supply of common items is too high. The price is too low to be worth selling at." But, if greedy sellers and market manipulation drive prices, can't you get good prices on your common drops by selling them for more and manipulating people into buying them? And if greedy sellers and market manipulation drive prices, won't an increase in supply produce no benefit? I have a hard time understanding how you can believe all the things you say at the same time. |
We have a set of rebuttals that only apply to efficient markets , the game's markets are such that they can't even begin to approach efficiency. The primary commodity needed for efficient markets is information and our markets hide what they don't outright destroy.
Its always good to see someone nitpick a poor description of an obvious problem while turning a blind eye to giant elephant of the problem.
Never underestimate the power of beliefs held as dogmas with no semantic content.
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Oh indeed !!|
Originally Posted by seebs
Never underestimate the power of beliefs held as dogmas with no semantic content.
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Lets go over the dogmas the market forum has put forth over the years.
You couldn't raise the price of an item and make a profit off of it. That was a great one. You even had Smurphy's empty challenge of raising above the equilibrium price and making a profit. He defined the equilibrium price as the highest price you could sell at and still make a profit. I still chuckle over that.
Nethergoat's endless bit on flipping not raising prices. We got the lovely bit of spin from that trying to differentiate flipping from monopolizing. Finally ending with him holding the positions that "Flipping is not monopolization" and "Flippers can't coexist in a niche" simultaneously.
Flippers Stabilize prices. This seems to be a tenet of faith and one that is provably wrong. Just start to play with common salvage to make a profit.
I don' even want to think about the horrible reaction one poster had when people pointed out his "Anti Flipping Experiment" wasn't much of an experiment and didn't show much of anything.
If you want to understand just how inefficient our market is, just the watch the amount of inf you can make by simply shifting the price of items to odd numbers.
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http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/cons...tos/aut12.shtm|
Originally Posted by eryq2
A) No i didnt have a clunker. I had a 2003 yamaha r1 and a 2007 gsxr 750. They both got 93 octane. And an occasional 107 gallon.
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...the recommended gasoline for most cars is regular octane. In fact, in most cases, using a higher octane gasoline than your owner's manual recommends offers absolutely no benefit. It won't make your car perform better, go faster, get better mileage or run cleaner. Your best bet: listen to your owner's manual.http://www.cartalk.com/content/colum...August/03.html
The only time you might need to switch to a higher octane level is if your car engine knocks when you use the recommended fuel. This happens to a small percentage of cars.
Unless your engine is knocking, buying higher octane gasoline is a waste of money...
Ray: And remember, all the octane rating tells you is how much knock protection you get. A higher-than-necessary octane rating doesn't keep your engine cleaner, make the car go any faster, make your engine last longer or keep your hairline from receding. It just costs more. So use only the octane required by your manufacturer to prevent knock, and no more.Usually, it's older cars that start to knock. That's why I wondered.
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This is not true unless by 'heights' you mean low prices instead of high ones.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
You can blame buyers but if they aren't posted at certain heights, they can't be bought for that price.
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They can't be bought right away for that price. Fact is, though, people continue to dump stuff on the market for <100 inf, or for half the going rate, or whatever, so if you place a reasonable bid and wait a bit you might get what you want.
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One can always pay the flipper's price+1. Flippers buy as cheaply as they can get away with. What's one more inf?
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Originally Posted by seebs
They can't be bought right away for that price. Fact is, though, people continue to dump stuff on the market for <100 inf, or for half the going rate, or whatever, so if you place a reasonable bid and wait a bit you might get what you want.
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Yeah, let's.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Oh indeed !!
Lets go over the dogmas the market forum has put forth over the years. |
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| You couldn't raise the price of an item and make a profit off of it. That was a great one. You even had Smurphy's empty challenge of raising above the equilibrium price and making a profit. He defined the equilibrium price as the highest price you could sell at and still make a profit. I still chuckle over that. |
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| Nethergoat's endless bit on flipping not raising prices. We got the lovely bit of spin from that trying to differentiate flipping from monopolizing. Finally ending with him holding the positions that "Flipping is not monopolization" and "Flippers can't coexist in a niche" simultaneously. |
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| Flippers Stabilize prices. This seems to be a tenet of faith and one that is provably wrong. Just start to play with common salvage to make a profit. |
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| If you want to understand just how inefficient our market is, just the watch the amount of inf you can make by simply shifting the price of items to odd numbers. |
It really does irk me when people let their own "tenets of faith" get in the way of logic. I don't think our market is perfect, I don't necessarily like paying a lot for some of the stuff that I buy, but at least I realize why this happens and that whenever I pay that price I support the system. Oh yes, I'm a lazy marketeer and I only use the market to get influence for the stuff I want to have. If it's at the "expense of others", it's not my problem because I'm not forcing them to pay me, if they decide in their very own head that they want STUF NAO and then pay the price to get it RITE NAO, they don't really have any right to complain. What's the thing they say again - patience is a virtue?
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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I depend on this.|
Originally Posted by DSorrow
Uh, you mean if you want to understand how lazy people are? Often if I put stuff up for sale at 5.1xx million inf, people try bidding 5mil, it doesn't work and they jump straight up to 7.5mil or something else that's nice and round. Even better, if the last five all say 20mil, I can confidently put my stuff up at 15.xxx mil, and pretty much every single one of them goes for 20mil because people don't bother to try lower prices.
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Just to assure that I am the one getting the sale, when I set things for sale, I list them at prices that might well cost me money if they were actually bought at that price. But, almost always, they sell for the next bump up and then I profit--almost always. Sometimes someone will bid creep in small enough increments that I lose a little here and there.
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The funny thing is, if people didn't have to have everything RITE DIS MOMENT flipping would be impossible. Marketeering altogether would be pretty much impossible, you might just be able to make small profits for crafting, and even then those would be very small.|
Originally Posted by all_hell
I depend on this.
Just to assure that I am the one getting the sale, when I set things for sale, I list them at prices that might well cost me money if they were actually bought at that price. But, almost always, they sell for the next bump up and then I profit--almost always. Sometimes someone will bid creep in small enough increments that I lose a little here and there. |
Thus, my proposal to "fix" the market is to find a cure for gottahaveitnowitis.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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People will continue to see what others do as wrong because it isn't what they want them to do.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I have a hard time understanding how you can believe all the things you say at the same time.
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Originally Posted by DSorrow
At least get your facts straight. You can raise the price of an item and make profit off of it, but the point is you can't go on doing it forever. Very soon people will catch onto your scheme, either lowering the maximum sale value (other flippers) or increasing supply to a level where you can no longer control it (everyone else). |
If you are going to tell someone to have their facts straight you should have yours somewhere close to straight first. We have had posters state quite simply they were able to raise prices and make a profit at it as long as they wanted and make sizable sums doing so. Hell I have been doing it for the last 3 weeks. I do it every time I need to get sales badges on an alt.
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I believe this bit was about flipping not causing price spikes, because that's what it prevents. When flipping stuff, the bottom price rises some, but the overall price is stabilized preventing wild spikes from happening. Why does this happen? In order to get the stuff, you need to have the highest bid around (setting the minimum price), but in order to sell the price has to be low enough that people still buy everything and everything is sold by you (setting the maximum price). If another flipper comes along, the maximum price drops because they have to compete on the lowest sale price. Please, show me how flippers do not stabilize prices in the long run. Logic dictates something completely else, but if you can prove otherwise, go on. |
You have no proof of this. Its an article of faith for you. I doubt you could even define what constitutes a more stable price or the long run let alone that flipping makes it happen.
You have managed to go from flipping be able to create short term price spikes to it preventing them. Well done. What are you going for next ? Defining anything that causes prices to be more volatile as not being flipping ?
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| Uh, you mean if you want to understand how lazy people are? Often if I put stuff up for sale at 5.1xx million inf, people try bidding 5mil, it doesn't work and they jump straight up to 7.5mil or something else that's nice and round. Even better, if the last five all say 20mil, I can confidently put my stuff up at 15.xxx mil, and pretty much every single one of them goes for 20mil because people don't bother to try lower prices. |
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| It really does irk me when people let their own "tenets of faith" get in the way of logic. |
Its pretty obvious that what irks you is when people challenge your tenets of faith.
So, Another Fan, is it you contention that many or most market prices are being driven by a cabal of people intent on driving up prices?
Or are you just arguing that it's possible to drive up prices in some cases?
Ever since you started posting here, I've been trying to figure out what your position is, but since almost all of your posts are basically assertions that the prevailing wisdom in the market forum is wrong, or that individual posters are wrong, I've rarely heard you speak to what you actually believe.
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Where do you come up with this cabal of people stuff ? |
Originally Posted by Camper
So, Another Fan, is it you contention that many or most market prices are being driven by a cabal of people intent on driving up prices?
Or are you just arguing that it's possible to drive up prices in some cases? Ever since you started posting here, I've been trying to figure out what your position is, but since almost all of your posts are basically assertions that the prevailing wisdom in the market forum is wrong, or that individual posters are wrong, I've rarely heard you speak to what you actually believe. |
If there is a cabal and I frequently drive prices higher why wasn't I invited ?
Does this cabal argue about who gets to wear the fez as well ?
Kidding aside, we have a market that is pitifully easy to manipulate. People come along, look, say hey I can do that and then they do it.
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And exactly what does that prove? Yep, people are lazy. If they bothered to take a look at the prices, saw there was a flipper at work, they could've got their stuff for whatever the flipper paid + 1 inf. If everyone was not lazy this wouldn't be possible. Already two marketeers competing on an item lowers prices.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
If you are going to tell someone to have their facts straight you should have yours somewhere close to straight first. We have had posters state quite simply they were able to raise prices and make a profit at it as long as they wanted and make sizable sums doing so. Hell I have been doing it for the last 3 weeks. I do it every time I need to get sales badges on an alt.
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| Seeing as we are talking about faith here, where is your proof that flipping stabilizes prices ? |
This goes on and on for a while. Buy price approaches sell price. If continued ad infinitum, buy price = sell price making profit flipping impossible. Because flippers A and B have both set their minimum bet at close to their sell price, people always make at least that much when selling their item. Because flippers A and B produce demand, supply is increased: people no longer delete that stuff because it's worth something. Because flippers A and B compete for the lowest listing price, people never have to pay more than that much to get it.
Understand or do I need to make it even more simple?
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| Just how much does it stabilize prices ? |
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| You have no proof of this. Its an article of faith for you. I doubt you could even define what constitutes a more stable price or the long run let alone that flipping makes it happen. |
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| You have managed to go from flipping be able to create short term price spikes to it preventing them. Well done. What are you going for next ? Defining anything that causes prices to be more volatile as not being flipping ? |
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| Its pretty obvious that what irks you is when people challenge your tenets of faith. |
P.S. I'm not impervious to logic, if you can convince me with logic that flippers do not stabilize prices, I'll admit to being wrong.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
If you sell at a temporarily high price, then you know you can always buy the item back later, and have both the item, and the money.