Issue 19.5

Well, "a lot of stuff" is not the most quantifiable threshold, so I won't argue the point. Still, my guess of 128 shard-equivalents is enough to constitute 32 common components, which represents a nontrivial amount of activity for many players.

Now me...well, my empath has an Uncommon boost and enough components and shards stockpiled to reach the 128 shard target, though it may prove more efficient to spend some of his stash of V-merits on G'rai Matters once we see exactly what's required. My controller has a Common boost and, I think, enough stuff to upgrade it to Uncommon. The requirements obviously don't faze me.

Good point about the level shift making it easier to accumulate additional shards.

All five origins cover a lot of ground individually except for one really (mutation). My point was that these two are not contradictory when placed under the Science origin.

Science is a special case origin in another sense, and that is in some ways it is defined by what it is not. Really, there are only two explanations for all superpowers in CoH: the ones that can be explained by Science, and the ones that cannot (which we call Magic). Science, Technology, Mutation, and Natural are all fundamentally based on scientific principles.

The Science Origin, however, is essentially defined as any origin involving scientific principles that does not involve a genetic mutation as the source of those powers (Mutation), does not implement itself with high technology to effect those powers (Technology), and isn't something that requires no fundamental scientific inquiry to discover (Natural).

In other words, if its not magic, and its not technology, and its not a mutation, and its not something natural, then its science.

In terms of how the origins are typically used, there are two "Super-Origins" - Science and Magic. Technology, Natural, and Mutation are all subclasses of Science. Not in an "Origins of Power" lore sense, but in terms of how the origins seem to be chosen.

Also, the way the upgrade chart is drawn, it looks like you need ALL rare boosts to unlock the very rare boost, which would increase the costs further.

Well, some temp powers grant additional effect based on origin, and since some prigin powers have an energy component, they can be used to light oil slicks...

Personal opinion, I'd think there should be a dual origin option, but that would mess with single origin enhancements. Also note that all 5 origins had never always existed, and apparently, it's possible for an origin to change, if Dmitri Krylov is correct.

It's says any 2 Rare will be needed to craft the Very rare.

@Radmind - Justice Server
ClintarCOH - Twitter

A booster pack that includes content outside of costumes and powers? No thank you, please. We do not need to go down that path.

This brings up a good point. Discworld is cool.

I guess if they just want THAT game to take all their subs...

Catgirl in heat = slightly crazy person with claws = Pain and Terror.

Currently if you run a level 25-30 TF with a level 40 character, you are exemplared to level 30. I am going to assume that the non-Incarnate TFs that currently cap at level 50 will remain capped at level 50: even if you have 10 level shifts, you will still be 'exemplared' to level 50 for the STF, ITF, etc.

And I have no clue how the level shifts would interact with super sidekicking.

Three problems.
1) The chart differs from the in-game chart, which links all the rares together before splitting to the very rares.
2) If assuming it's not linked, why any two rares, as opposed to the rares underneath them?
3) Is that rare boost slot, OR rare components? It may very well mean any two rare components, along with ALL boost slots underneath them.

I remember when the incarnates were first talked about and it was said that Incarnates would make regular content trivial.

Common sense says that its probably unlikely that every Incarnate lvl will have a lvl shift. I could see maybe 1 shift every 2 lvls, but not a full 10 lvl shifts.

Also, why would the devs make the Incarnates exempt down to lvl 50 on the regular TFs? You aren't technically lvl 60, more like lvl 50 +++++.
The whole point of the incarnate system was to make your lvl 50's more powerful. Why get the incarnate lvls when you can't even use them on a lvl 50?

I'm sure in the future issues there will be content for the lvl shifted incarnates that will put them to the test.

But to be honest I'd have a lot of fun just going into a lgtf and soloing Hami, and the AVs. I would feel like an incarnate!

@Radmind - Justice Server
ClintarCOH - Twitter

To be a mutant, there has to be a genetic cause of your powers. Just being born able to do magic doesn't make you a mutant, even if it runs in families (i.e. Sourcery). The same thing is true even in CoH: the Mu have familial sources of magical ability, but they are not mutants.

Since even science is caused by magic on the discworld, I'd say that all powers there have a magical cause. None of them are science or mutation. Theoretically speaking technology can work on the discworld, but only under very special sets of circumstances: there isn't that much technology on the disc that isn't controlled ultimately by magic.

In CoH, even when magical ability is "natural" that is considered magic, not natural origin. Natural presumes no supernatural ability. What it actually presumes is something tricky: that in the world of City of Heroes its possible for normal people to do things that normal people cannot do in the real world.

In the movie Last Action Hero Jack Slater can survive wounds that would kill a normal person. But he doesn't have magical abilities to do so: that is what is "normal" in the Jack Slater world. Similarly, a person who is a "natural" energy blaster has somehow figured out how to unlock the natural potential of human beings to project kinetic energy. In the real world, no such ability exists, but it does in the fictional comic book world of City of Heroes.

Looking at the website I see your point... But I'll probably go with what you see in game.

@Radmind - Justice Server
ClintarCOH - Twitter

Actually according to some COH lore, it may have to be more than genetic. Dmitri Krylov and Sister Psyche speculates it to be atomic. In that sense, pure genetic mutations may very well be classified Natural instead.

Also note that the same speculation states that Origins can change over time. Which makes the whole thing more complicated... or more simple. In that sense, by doing the incarnate arcs, we're changing origin from whatever we were, to Incarnate.

(EDIT: Also because it's atomic, fixadine related mutations may potentially be considered Mutant origin despite not being genetic. And theoretically, it may also affect more than just biological beings. Just a thought.)

Since Susan inherited Death's handmark on her face from when he slapped her mother, I suppose that there are things in Discworld that you can be born with that are not Hereditary traits.

And yes, in Discworld, science deals heavily with magic. Which makes sense, because science is about exploring the world in which you live. Discworld is a world of magic, so there would be a lot of scientists researching magic, well... wizards doing science.

In City of Heroes... why aren't the Mu mutants? From what I've read, they improved their magic abilities by selective breeding.

I guess you missed my posts and/or edits. Either way, both are wrong, Mutants are NOT genetic based on CoH lore. See the post above yours.

(Also noting because it's atomic, fixadine-related mutations are also liable to fall under Mutant despite not being genetic.)

Maybe not this post, but I edited a previous post too. Still, I just want to correct this major misconception being thrown around here.

Sister Psyche implies in the Origin of Power arc that genetic mutation isn't the sole story behind people who have power that appears to come from genetic mutation: that there is some deeper thing at work. But that isn't really about whether our understanding of the mutant origin is invalid in the metagaming sense: Sister Psyche is doing what all the Origin of Power contacts seem to be intending to do, which is to imply that there is a root cause to all superpowers that transcends the five origins. Which is possibly a reference to the revelation that the Well of Furies is the source of all Incarnate power, and possibly ultimately the source of all power.

I disagree, in that I don't think that's all of it. Jack Emmert once said that if Superman existed in City of Heroes, he would be of the Natural origin, and Superman isn't human or "normal" under any definition of the word. A good example from our own universe is Kheldians, more specifically Peacebringers, who bring with them alien energy powers, yet are still considered and tagged Natural.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I kinda cheat in this case. Carnifax (Illusion/Storm) is a demon (well an imp), she's a creature of magic but where she comes from that's probably more of a Natural origin.

So I fudged it slightly and said because she got here due to a magical CoT portal (they're like the ferry for getting us Demon types into Paragon City, aren't they) coupled with the fact her weather control powers are a result of non-innate learnt magical rituals and spells I went with with Magic origin. Which is really nothing more than a self-justification excuse for the fact Magical felt more correct for her when I was rolling her.

But I think it acknowledges the real fact with Origins, it's the players choice. If they've an origin which suits how they see their character they should go with it, there's no real ingame impact and no real point in someone coming along and saying "Hey, that's wrong. Technically you're of Natural origin"

Slightly???

Catgirls are more than slightly crazy when they're not in heat!

Technically more than that though. Both sides imply that Mutant, as an origin, only came about after 1938, the splitting of the atom. Certainly genetic mutations existed before 1938. But as a discrete source of power, it apparently draws from a different source even if genetic, at least until that 1938 event. Also because it's from atomic structure, it also means that Mutant doesn't necessarily have to be from mutation whatsoever.

More importantly, Sister Psyche also implies that there may be more origins that the quaint 5 (or 6) categories we have.

I don't believe that contradicts what I said, unless you think I implied the rule only applies to Earth-native human beings when I said "people." Superman gets his powers because its natural for beings that happen to have his biology to have them, and more importantly Superman's backstory implies such abilities are even possible regardless of biology.

By my stated definition of the Natural Origin, Superman is natural as are the Peacebringers. Superman is not magic, which places him in the "non-magic umbrella." He's not a mutant, in that he is not a genetic abnormality. He does not derive his powers through technology. He does have powers that did not explicitly require scientific research or inquiry, but are said to be theoretically possible to exist in his reality naturally - without deliberate technological effort or the uncovering of scientific principles that would lead (deliberately or accidentally) to extraordinary ability. Therefore he is Natural origin.

^ QFT, is all I can add, really.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.