Issue 19.5

So a human hero who learned magic spells is Natural, because the ability to learn magic is natural to humans?

Except it's not. If it was, EVERYONE would be using it. It would feature a lot more in the game world. By the game worlds own canon, magical ability is NOT natural for ALL humans.
Every human has the potential to be, say, an MA/WP Scrapper or some such. Not all of them are, sure, but every single human has the capability to do so. That makes it a Natural ability.

The Turtles, were it not for the goop, would have grown up to be just normal turtles/tortoises (since yanks use a different word). They wouldn't have been able to do anything super. They wouldn't have been able to hold their weapons, let alone train how to use them. Ergo, they cannot be considered Natural origin, because they are not natural turtles. They are turtles + toxic goop = Humanoid Turtles.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Depends. Did they learn the spells from studying manuscripts or are their powers a gift from a object or person?

Studying = Natural

Object or personal influence = Magic

If you're soloing all the way, yeah it is. If you're running task forces, actually not really. I'm splitting time roughly between a scrapper, a blaster, and a controller (at least at level 50: I'm also trying to level two other alts here and there). My scrapper is in the lead having run like only three ITFs and spent the rest of the time running tip missions at 0x8. She has crafted spiritual radial and Nerve Radial (two uncommons) and still has three components and something like 16 shards. I'm pretty sure I'll be slotting at least a rare the day its released. Very rare, maybe, maybe not, but its also clear to me that the jump from uncommon to rare is much more important than the jump from rare to very rare, due primarily to level shift.

My guess is that all three will have rares slotted within 30 days of release, and I'm going to be a slow poke relative to the more aggressive players.

For a 100% soloer, very rare is a long way away, but rare is within striking distance in a reasonable amount of play, factoring in the fact that everything is slower for a dedicated soloing non-damage dealer. And rare is the more important target than very rare. Very rare is icing on the cake for most players I think. Rare is one that matters.

Although what I'm also finding out is that contrary to what many people assumed - that Alpha (minus level shift) was going to have only a minimal effect on well-built invention slotted characters - that I notice the difference of Alpha in *every* character I slot it in. If nothing else, almost everything can notice the benefit of Spiritual Radial's essentially +14% or better global recharge. That's almost two LotG's buff for what is probably a lot less effort than it takes to get two LotGs, and no slotting cost.

Gonna be interesting when my MA/SR has the equivalent of over 130% global recharge without hasten in the build and aid self is healing for almost 600 a pop, before talking about level shift. And my En/En blaster is spending a lot of time flirting with the recharge cap while solo: she's actually beginning to scratch the surface of Infinite Freem (which is intentional: its actually my goal with that build to reproduce the activity level of infinite freem. Not because its optimal, but just because I can, and its ludicrously fun. Also, because at that level of speed you can almost ignore the effects of mez).


One more thing: if you can make it to rare, the level shift will make it a whole lot easier for a soloer to earn the shards necessary to make very rare. No one who actually builds to solo should be having problems taking out -1s regardless of powerset combination. Or, run at minus one and essentially fight -2s.

Can't get shards off 49s.

Kryptonians only have powers when exposed to cosmic rays from a yellow sun. On their home planet under normal conditions they have no special abilities. Parallel: All humans gain super strength and invulnerability when exposed to the radioactive gas of the planet Spectron 9. Therefore, it's natural for humans to have superhuman strength (that makes sense right?). Sounds sciency to me.

Like I said, feel free to start a thread, though it's already been discussed excruciatingly. There won't be any single resolution. Fact is there's no guide or right answer to origin. It's all up to the player's interpretation. Even if the creator had something else in mind, it's the player's interpretation that matters, because it's their character and ultimately it doesn't matter anyway. There's no penalty for getting an origin "wrong," and in a lot of cases your character could be more than one origin (AR/Devices can be natural AND tech), but the game only allows for one.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

One level shift per slot for the "level 60" that the devs have mentioned would mean that running the current high level TFs would give you gray AVs capped at 54 - so those MO badges might need tweaking

Sorry, you're wrong. If all humans have super strength on Spectron 9, a super strength human on Spectron 9 is Natural. There was no experiment or accident that caused the human to have super strength - the human has super strength simply because that's how humans work on Spectron 9.

Now, if you're talking about a human on Earth who has super strength because of some exposure due to Spectron 9, that's another issue. Could be Technology (a pressure suit or breather with the gas of Spectron 9), Science (some experiment making the exposure to Spectron 9's gas permanent), possibly even Mutation (child of a human and a Spectronian who has mutated the Spectronian gas as part of her human physiology) or Magic (an artefact that exudes the gas of Spectron 9 or an incantation that engulfs the caster in the gas and empowers them for a time.)

You are right that people are perfectly free to have the wrong or multiple origins, though.

Opinions can't be wrong; that's why they're opinions. And origins are opinion-based. If I asked two people what an AR/Dev should be, they'd give me different answers. Same as we're giving different answers for Superman and the TMNT.

My line of reasoning is that it's impossible for Kryptonians to have superpowers without the interference of a yellow sun (an outside force that has nothing to do with the person who ends up gaining the powers). Your line of reasoning is that since ALL Kryptonians would go through the same change given the same circumstances, that makes it "natural." I see your viewpoint; it makes sense; but I don't personally agree. That doesn't mean my opinion is wrong. No more than yours, anyway.

If you want, you can consider Superman a combination of both Kryptonian DNA (natural) and yellow sun radiation exposure (science), making him both natural AND science, and once again leaving it open to the interpretation of which one of the two they pick in the character editor.

But that's off-topic. Was just trying to prove a point. I'll avoid derailing concerning origins now.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Okay, in Discworld, a person can be born with a talent for, or an affinity to, magic. This makes a wizard or witch a mutant (because not everyone has it). They do have to study to refine what they can do with it though.

A person in Discworld can also get magical powers from Faustian pacts or the like. That's clearly magic.

Tiffany Aching was not born with a talent for magic, but through sheer bloodymindedness, she is able to be a witch. She is natural.

They are all doing magic, though.

I dunno, but I think my next character just might be a Spectronian now.

The question of how a player should pick an origin given a circumstance is a matter of opinion. The question of how the game itself treats the science origin for story purposes is not. Where the two can collide is when a player picks a particular origin for reasons contradictory to the game lore, and they get funneled into a storyline that presumes things about the player's origin that are false. In that case, the player needs to decide if overriding the game lore to pick an origin of their own definition is worth it.

I agree. I think the core issue is that if you think about it logically every character actually has two origins. The first is "where did they come from" the second is "where did their powers come from". Depending on the character either can realistically be used as their in-game origin, which one makes more sense can differ from person to person and from character to character.

For example consider Tin Mage, under this system he's Tech/Magic (i.e. he himself is an artifact of technology but his powers are magical). Which Origin should be used for him in game? Personally I'd say Magic since I'd say that is the defining aspect of who he is.

The TMNT on the other hand are Science/Natural but I would say their in game origin is "Science" because being mutated turtles is the defining aspect of who they are.

Do you know what they look like?

Outside of the first arc you can do blueside, is there anything else based on origin? Out of curiosity.

The game is pretty flip-floppy about origins anyway. For instance, it treats Science like The Flash -- "You received your powers either through purposeful scientific inquiry or some accident gone awry." Even though the game has a perfectly good example of a science origin gang that didn't result from exploding lab experiments: Trolls gain their powers from drugs (although I half expect someone to tell me Trolls are natural now).

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

The origin of powers has different text depending upon your origin.

Nope, and neither will anyone else. Spectronians on Earth need breathers full of the radioactive gas of Spectron 9, after all.

The drugs are the result of exploding lab experiments, so I don't see how those that derive power from them wouldn't be Science. Makes perfect sense to me.

Quite so; I shouldn't have said that. Scratch that part.

Performance enhancing drugs would be an example of purposeful scientific inquiry unless those drugs triggered a genuine genetic mutation in the individual.

Right, but that's my point. If you made a Troll character who got their powers from doing drugs, CoH would send you to work with a scientist in a lab coat. It's a bit of disconnect to me. "My character does drugs they got on the street" and "my character got their powers in a lab while experimenting with chemicals" are pretty far apart.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

I dunno, is it any more of a disconnect than sending any big bruiser of any other origin to work with any of the other origin branches? Big bruisers don't really mesh with the Hero ideal written by those arcs to begin with.

Not so much. All the heroes have government paid health care, so when that drug gave you super powers, you were sent to a woman in a lab coat to see what was wrong with you, and when it turned out "Oh, well, you've got super powers." She set you up with G.I.F.T. (If I remember correctly)

Do remember that at some point before you even enter the tutorial, you were fitted with a medical transporter.