What keeps you away from AE arcs?
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2010-12-11 19:09 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Hey, PW. I wasn't trying to say that your hard work was worthless, and the mere fact that you filtered at all makes a big difference. Of course, tastes vary. As far as comedy goes, there are definitely comedy arcs I enjoyed. One example for me was @Ascendant's arc, The Saul Rubenstein Discount Taskforce. Everything about it was perfect. Another one was The Footsteps Initiative, by @Muu, because it was spot on accurate to the PuG experience that so many of us have. I played those arcs when they first came out, and it gave me high hopes for the AE system. Sadly,no other comedy arcs come to mind as being even passable to me, although some arcs are unintentionally funny. Some arcs, like OMG It's the LOLbat or whatever it's called, are diametrically opposed to actual humour.
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Originally Posted by PoliceWoman
That's cool, I just wasn't quite sure whether people were saying "I hate all comedy arcs" or just "I hate the particular comedy arcs you picked". If it's the former, not much I can do but recommend you avoid any arc I tag "comedy". If it's the latter, I thought I'd ask which ones people like more.
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Too many of the current comedic DC arcs are from "celebrity" guest authors whose humor does not necessarily transfer well to the medium of AE. And there are some who've never found Scott Kurtz' LOLBAT or Rooster Teeth's Captain Awesome, to name two examples, particularly funny.
(With regard to the latter, I remember when the first of those videos came out, the consensus in my circle was "NCSoft actually paid for this?")
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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Humor is something that is very subjective. I liked LOLBAT but never found Captain Awesome/The Great Face to be funny at all. There's plenty of other arcs where I can tell the author intended for something to be funny, but I don't think it's actually funny.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
Too many of the current comedic DC arcs are from "celebrity" guest authors whose humor does not necessarily transfer well to the medium of AE. And there are some who've never found Scott Kurtz' LOLBAT or Rooster Teeth's Captain Awesome, to name two examples, particularly funny.
(With regard to the latter, I remember when the first of those videos came out, the consensus in my circle was "NCSoft actually paid for this?") |
This isn't limited to AE, though; comedy movies or TV shows have the same problem. Some are really funny (to me), some are not funny at all (to me). Strangely, some of the ones that aren't funny (to me) are incredibly popular.
So, yeah...it's subjective.
That said, I still find it nearly irresistable to inject humor into lighthearted superhero adventures that I, personally, write. Comic books are meant to be fun, after all.
Your mileage may vary.
@PW - Police Woman (50 AR/dev blaster on Liberty)
TALOS - PW war journal - alternate contact tree using MA story arcs
=VICE= "Give me Liberty, or give me debt!"
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I don't have a problem with it.
The only thing I don't like is that it's stickied when Venture's or Coulomb2's are not. Whatever the reason is, wether it's your amazing formatting skills  or anything else, I still find it a bit unfair to the others.
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| Sadly,no other comedy arcs come to mind as being even passable to me, although some arcs are unintentionally funny. |
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| That said, I still find it nearly irresistable to inject humor into lighthearted superhero adventures that I, personally, write. Comic books are meant to be fun, after all. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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For me I just don't think it's worth it.|
Originally Posted by Bubbawheat
But for the many that either don't, or have stopped. What is the biggest reason that keeps you away from the AE building?
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I'd LIKE to give feedback and recognize the efforts made by the writers but the rewards gained compared to time involved is a poor deal to me.
1) Time required to find an arc which I want to play and is suitable to my level/AT
2) No rewards except tickets on most arcs (tickets are usually the only time I will use AE now)
To expand on these:
1) Finding an arc
- Poorly labelled arcs (and the AE system has improved but is still at fault)
- Not an exploitative farm (I don't care if someone has a ticket farm but at least label it so I don't bother looking for a story)
- Not broken due to 'AE fixes'
- Isn't full of mobs which are exceptionally annoying for the level/AT I'm playing (I'm sure someone enjoys Knives, I generally don't)
- I'd like to see more low level content but most arcs seem to be aimed at 50s who cheefully solo +4 x8
- Generally improve the clarity about the arc's content
- I don't expect every clue or every dialogue box but at least make a bash at grammar/spelling
- Attention to detail including costumes
I do understand that a lot of the difficulty here is the AE mission editor/kb limit. Not all, though.
2) Tickets are usually the only reward
- I will play AE only if I need tickets and then I'm looking for fast ticket drops (not exploits just good number of tickets so no I'm not leading your hostage to the door
)- Dev Choice and Hall of Fame aren't necessarily the best; giving an arc Dev's Choice because the Devs are IN it doesn't qualify as a quality arc to me
I understand the writer's frustrations with the requirements for DC and HoF and I can only say that if DC and HoF are going to stay they need a revamp on requirements. I'd rather see 'most highly rated this month' which takes out the necessity of dodging broken arcs as time goes on. Yes that might get a lot of farms rated. This is from a fairly non-AE-player perspective. I'm sure there are better ideas out there. I'd certainly be happy with a total wipe. There has been so many changes since AE started it wouldn't hurt to remove the stuff which no longer works or is just someone's (fixed) farm.
I have played some decent arcs. There was one which was fighting nazi's and the costumes was so good I was wondering how they managed a swastika on the chest (of course it wasn't the jacket gave the illusion but it was superb). I know there is good stuff there. However, so often I think I've found something then discover it's a farm or you are level 30 then level 50 then level 12. Or get to the last mission and find the 'custom' AV is just far far too hard because someone went crazy on the custom power selection.
It is hard to write an arc and those that do deserve credit. They deserve their arcs to be played. However, I'm not going to do that if I can run an ITF in the time it takes me to find a decent arc and get better drops doing so.
Would I use AE more if it had 'normal' drops. Maybe. However, unless it had a wipe of arcs which are broken and an improvement in the information about arcs, probably not.
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I don't touch AE, because I'm satisfied with the game's own content. I'm big into the lore, and I try my best to figure out what's coming next.
In addition, AE doesn't yield the rewards that I strive after in the game. I've gotten all the AE badges, and I'm always after reward merits and purple recipes.
I've got an arc still published that's mainly full of allusion. It gets played and rated occasionally, and never ceases to surprise me that players were willing to break from regular content to participate in my story-telling adventure. I just can't find myself breaking from my regular scheme of things, because I enjoy what I'm already doing.
I stopped doing AE arcs because of the difficulty of finding arcs that I enjoy, that did not make me feel like I could have done something else. Outside of farms, your generic AE arcs tend to give lesser game rewards so I expect my emotional compensation to be equal to the tangible game rewards I give up to do those arcs. Now you can say, play the ones that certain reviewers rated as good or posted on the forums. But good is subjective and I have philosophical objections to which there's no need to go into here.
"Honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty." -- Plato
Playing Gods (51106) - Heroic Lvl 5-20
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I'm interested in hearing them, if they're different from what's already been articulated.
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Originally Posted by Freem
I stopped doing AE arcs because of the difficulty of finding arcs that I enjoy, that did not make me feel like I could have done something else. Outside of farms, your generic AE arcs tend to give lesser game rewards so I expect my emotional compensation to be equal to the tangible game rewards I give up to do those arcs. Now you can say, play the ones that certain reviewers rated as good or posted on the forums. But good is subjective and I have philosophical objections to which there's no need to go into here.
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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I love when people do this. I do it too. That's the best place for humor in AE, IMO, and those are the kind of "comedy" arcs I like: the ones that focus on a story, and add humor around it.|
Originally Posted by PoliceWoman
That said, I still find it nearly irresistable to inject humor into lighthearted superhero adventures that I, personally, write. Comic books are meant to be fun, after all. |
What I'm tired of is "LOL" comedy arcs; some arcs just scream "look at me, I'm funny, now laugh!" No, they're usually not. They're mostly one-note jokes stretched out into an entire mission, or worse, a multi-mission arc. And if you filtered out all the ones that are based around customs wearing silly costumes, meta-jokes about bad players, Nemesis plots, or making fun of Twilight, there aren't that many comedy arcs left.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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That one is rather specific. You're now on the list. |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
or making fun of Twilight
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My affectations of egomania aside, the main issues with AE have been expounded quite a lot in this thread, and I mainly agree with these main ones that have been said quite often.
1) Broken arcs, arcs that were published by players just to try out the new system, and arcs that have just generally been left to languish by both the author and players need to be swept clean from the interface. Whether by unpublishing automatically after no plays or edits after a certain time period or a clean sweep of all arcs (except Dev Choice and Hall of Fame arcs, since those arcs confer extra arc slots) to have them all republished fresh, this would go a long way toward making it easier for a player just wanting to find a freaking arc and PLAY the damn thing.
The sweep is easier to implement, but messier. Any arcs by players with inactive accounts would be erased, with no guarantee of them having an up-to-date copy saved on their computer. The former would be the better option, but would take more time to implement. With this method, arcs by inactive players that are liked by people in the playerbase could be saved by them simply going and playing the arc. Sure, there will probably be some gems that no one found lost, but you have to keep in mind: nobody is finding them now anyway.
2) Replace the star ratings with a like/dislike. The star ratings are functionally useless. People generally won't want to search for anything less than what is rated the highest, because common sense says that if something is rated higher, it is better. However, the star ratings are not being handed out only by people who are trying to suggest to other players whether this is a good arc or not. They're being handed out by people who are just playing an arc for entertainment. When they beat the arc, the window will pop up and say "Rate this arc!" and they might say "Hey I had fun. This guy should get some tickets." and rate it a 5. They might have quit the arc out of frustration at a boss they couldn't defeat, or an enemy group they hate. The window pops up. They rate it a 1, because they're angry at the arc and, by extension, the author.
I used to be of the opinion that I should just rate things however I felt like, because my stance was that the concept of a 5-point scale wasn't broken, but that the fact that the interface so greatly emphasizes 5 star arcs over everything else by virtue of them being listed first was broken. However, rating things less than a 5 makes authors upset, and they put a lot of work into their arcs, so I now generally rate 5 or nothing. It's not like the sorting will sort itself out due to my actions or anything. What WILL sort it out, however, is by not using the stars as the default sorting mechanism, and the quickest way to accomplish that is to remove stars altogether and use another method of sorting the arcs, with the like/dislike numbers listed as an indicator of how many people enjoyed it.
3) The search interface is garbage. The last two were longwinded, but this one needs little else added. Honestly, guys, just look at YouTube, and do that. It's the most successful big ol' pile of user created content in the world. They're doing something right. Rip them off.
Those are the big 3, in my opinion. 2 and 3 seem to be common points that people bring up. 1 seems controversial, but I say there's nowhere to go but up, and it's the quickest option to take to give some immediate benefit to the ease of using MA. And honestly, if they implement a like/dislike rating system, the ratings will have to be wiped anyway.
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Convert 4 and 5 stars to like votes.
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Originally Posted by LaserJesus
And honestly, if they implement a like/dislike rating system, the ratings will have to be wiped anyway.
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Honestly, I won't even *touch* LOLBAT because of the title. it screams of juvenalia. Also reminds me of the "wacky" Champions Online signature character Foxbat, and CO left a terrible, terrible taste in my mouth.|
Originally Posted by PoliceWoman
Humor is something that is very subjective. I liked LOLBAT but never found Captain Awesome/The Great Face to be funny at all. There's plenty of other arcs where I can tell the author intended for something to be funny, but I don't think it's actually funny.
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This isn't limited to AE, though; comedy movies or TV shows have the same problem. Some are really funny (to me), some are not funny at all (to me). Strangely, some of the ones that aren't funny (to me) are incredibly popular. So, yeah...it's subjective. |
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| That said, I still find it nearly irresistable to inject humor into lighthearted superhero adventures that I, personally, write. Comic books are meant to be fun, after all. |
I haven't read your reviews, but if you have such a dismissive, exclusionary attitude toward things which don't fit into your worldview, I can say sight unseen that I will disagree with them. "I watched The Killing Fields and didn't laugh once! Zero stars!"
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Oh right, like you're the only one who does it.|
Originally Posted by LaserJesus
That one is rather specific. You're now on the list.
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*Looks at Venture*
*Looks even harder at everyone who thinks adding in a Dark Melee critter with a sparkle aura and a bio that describes what a sweet, romantic, harmless vampire he is automatically translates to funny.*
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Originally Posted by Ironik
I haven't read your reviews, but if you have such a dismissive, exclusionary attitude toward things which don't fit into your worldview, I can say sight unseen that I will disagree with them. "I watched The Killing Fields and didn't laugh once! Zero stars!"
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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I said "if." She can offer counter-evidence if she wants.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Well maybe you should read her reviews before making such broad assumptions based on your own lack of reading comprehension.
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Answer: I got all the badges from AE on my main badge hunter. Continuing in AE won't earn me any progress on my other badges (well...maybe damage taken? Does that count in AE?)
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Well, it's probably a mistake for me to attempt a reply to such an adversarial comment, but hey, it's the Internet.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
I disagree. Go read Maus or Ghost World or even selected issues of regular Marvel and DC comics where they take on serious subjects like drug addiction, child abuse, illness and the like. Those aren't "lighthearted" by any stretch of the imagination. There's plenty of room for serious stories using superheroes as metaphor -- the proverbial spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down, as it were. Saying that "comics are meant to be fun" is akin to saying "music is just meant for dancing." It completely ignores other valid forms of expression within the medium.
I haven't read your reviews, but if you have such a dismissive, exclusionary attitude toward things which don't fit into your worldview, I can say sight unseen that I will disagree with them. "I watched The Killing Fields and didn't laugh once! Zero stars!" |
To explain, my comment:
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| I still find it nearly irresistable to inject humor into lighthearted superhero adventures that I, personally, write. |
When reviewing a story arc and deciding how many stars I want to give it, I make an effort to judge it based on its technical merits and how well it represents a story of its genre. I can't claim that my rating is completely devoid of personal opinion, but I will say that I have given arcs I really liked a 3 star rating, because I thought they deserved it...and also given arcs I really didn't like a 5 star rating, because I thought they deserved it.
You are welcome to continue to disparage and disagree with my reviews "sight unseen", as you say, but as you have specifically called me out in this thread, it seemed appropriate to respond. Perhaps this will help you be slightly more informed as you disagree with my writing without even reading it.
Regarding how serious comic books should be, I'll agree that there are "serious" comic books that are worth reading. Hard Traveling Heroes is my favorite of this bunch. As a personal preference, however, I like comics that are more lighthearted and fun.
@PW - Police Woman (50 AR/dev blaster on Liberty)
TALOS - PW war journal - alternate contact tree using MA story arcs
=VICE= "Give me Liberty, or give me debt!"
I didn't "call you out." I responded to a post you made. Misunderstanding something that simple is... bah, forget it. No one seems to have their brains switched to "On" today.
"Call you out." As if.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Highly rated or reviewed arcs are a self-fufilling prophecy that don't really seem to be correlated with how much I personally enjoy the arc. This is similar to Youtube viral videos, popular songs on internet. I believe all authors deserve a fair chance at play, regardless of how the initial play/rating is biased. This impels me to try to play AE arcs in a as statistically fair manner as I can...if I play.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
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I generally don't go around publicizing on the boards what I'm doing in-game, but I've actually levelled up 2 50's purely on AE arcs (not farms), so I think I'm qualified to say I have a fair idea of what kind of arcs are out there. I don't think the problem of AE is something a better search can solve. What are we searching for in the first place? What will removing old. arcs solve, either? There are enjoyable un-updated old arcs, and unenjoyable new ones. Removing unplayed/unrated arcs is the same. You can have a perfectly good arc sitting around with 0 plays waiting to be played, written by a global called @l337z0rl0xx who has never heard of posting on the boards -- why should his arc be deleted? A dominator player may enjoy x8 easily-held mobs that spam freezing rain that a brute hates, brute likes x8 brawling mobs that have status protection that the dom hates. Etc. Etc.
I think that when you have a system that allows anyone to publish, you will have a wide range of outputs. You will always have selected group(s) of people who want to change the system in a way that best suits their criteria. Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular or saying that it's bad. But it's not really 'good' or 'improvement' for everyone, only the group(s) involved. How will that draw more players to play AE, outside of the already present group(s) playing?
IMHO, YMMV, etc.
"Honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty." -- Plato
Playing Gods (51106) - Heroic Lvl 5-20
What Rough Beast (255143) - Villainous Lvl 40-50
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Originally Posted by Korith
Answer: I got all the badges from AE on my main badge hunter. Continuing in AE won't earn me any progress on my other badges (well...maybe damage taken? Does that count in AE?)
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Nope, no credit for inf, damage, healing, debt paid off, sk ing, immobilized, etc.
That blue thing running around saying "Cookies are sometimes food" is Praetorian Cookie Monster!
Shoot on sight, please.
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I'm not? Sad face.
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I don't understand why people can't add story to their ticket farms. I will make no secret about it. I've always tried to edit my arcs to the extent possible, to make sure that players were gaining the maximum number of XP, tickets, inf, and every other game reward they could expect to get from easy-normal play. I've mixed and matched easy standard mobs, renamed and recolored, with easy custom mobs to comply with the three tier rule. |
Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
- Not an exploitative farm (I don't care if someone has a ticket farm but at least label it so I don't bother looking for a story)
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The only time I deviated from this design philosophy was when I left my Lesbian Hellion II mission up, despite its liberal use of forbidden friendly NPCs. I'd fought too hard for the Lesbian Hellions to take that down. I suspect that today I could put up the original Lesbian Hellion mission and nobody would notice it.
Even some missions considered exploits could be, and were, presented with a hint of story: "Disrupt Rikti Communications....." Make it fun! I also remember seeing some good, funny writing for Lord Recluse when he was being farmed in AE.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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I actually have some notes for a "farm story" mission... I figured if I ever posted it in the game no one would play it and I'd get flamed here on the forums because it's a comedy (full of puns like my ol' BUNNYGIRLS! arc) but it seems that everyone here now thinks comedy arcs kill kittens. Plus, people hate farms and farmers as well. Seeing how I'm running out of slots anyways, I'll probably never get around to making it, so FEAR NOT. (FLAME NOT too plz)|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
I don't understand why people can't add story to their ticket farms.
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And not in cotext of Heraclea's post: I liked a lot of what Freem had to say - although a search feature as strong as YouTube's (or Google's) would be better than what we have now, which is just using simpler terms like "Comedy", "Drama", etc. For example, I can search for "Dr. Who fanmade trailer 2010" on YouTube; in AE I just get to click "Science Fiction" and hope for the best. I'm guessing such a robust search would be too resource-heavy though.
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I'll be perfectly honest; almost all of my arcs have comedy elements. My sense of humor is somewhat surrealistic and odd in any case. I make missions based on forum memes and funny character descriptions, and to the extent I have a specialty it is that: Jerk Hackers, Lesbian Hellions, Deth Kicks, and purpled warshades all figure in my arcs. These themes are generally not the ones liked best by the arbiters of taste here, it seems. |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
What I'm tired of is "LOL" comedy arcs; some arcs just scream "look at me, I'm funny, now laugh!" No, they're usually not. They're mostly one-note jokes stretched out into an entire mission, or worse, a multi-mission arc. And if you filtered out all the ones that are based around customs wearing silly costumes, meta-jokes about bad players, Nemesis plots, or making fun of Twilight, there aren't that many comedy arcs left.
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I've never submitted any of mine to Venture for review; I know that they're not the sort of thing he tends to favor. I'm heavily influenced by the Firesign Theatre and other surrealistic comedy acts. My main interest is not drama or RP but strangeness for strangeness' sake.
Because of that, I write short ones. Like a comic book arc that's more than three issues is too long in my opinion, a MA arc, at least one not intended to be a quasi task force, that lasts longer than three missions may be pushing it.
I make them to please nobody but myself, and I have to admit I've been on something of a hiatus for most of the year. I have some new ideas and plan on heading back there shortly.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
I'd like more space, too. Custom critters are the single best thing about the AE because it's a break from the usual. Same old maps, same exact spawn points... might as well have interesting enemies to fight. I don't know how many times I've had to completely revamp my ideas because the custom creatures made me hit the data limit. Another reason why I've just given up.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Have to agree with most of what is said here. No incentive, no reward for enduring a mixed bag of story arcs to say the least. Both the difficulty and storytelling vary considerably:
- Many think a mission with 8 AVs in each mission as Soloable/Easy or
- There is so little storytelling that one assumes they were created to take advantage of an exploit then left on the system or maybe they are there to trick people into giving the creator tickets without requiring any effort from the creator. No idea.
- Rating system has never worked correctly. Have all your SG friends give you a 5 or the first time you get a 4 or lower you drop into the hell of 4 stars where your arc will never be played again. And of course many take great joy in slamming missions without actually reading the text.
The real issue is how do you correct all these issues? First of all they need to jump on AE exploits faster. Shut it down temporarily if they have to (wouldn't be the first business to close due to technical issues for a week or 2). Sad to say Sony Online had the right idea with Everquest. Use an exploit? Get you character deleted (don't tell me you ran the same mission 20 times in a row not knowing it was an exploit, once maybe after that...).
Once it is safe to PLAY AE they can offer shard/Purple reward/turn-ins and possibly expand the number of arcs that give normal rewards. If a Dev has played it, liked it and it isn't an exploit why not turn it over to normal rewards? This would also help you find good arcs since at least someone other than the other and his best friend would have to like it. lol
IF THERE WERE DOZENS OF ARCS WITH NORMAL REWARDS WOULD YOU USE AE THEN?
I think that is the key. Maybe they would have to take the creator's ability to edit the arcs away to prevent people doing stupid things like exploits, but I would think that would be pretty dumb to cook the goose that laid your golden egg.
Dr Aeon plays a LOT of arcs for his competitions. Devs play arcs normally (I assume they use exploits like everyone else LOL) no really hopefully they do. This doesn't have to be a big deal special thing, its just when we hit one we like we make it a Dev Choice. The way it works now it comes off like the Devs are saying the bulk of AE is garbage because out of all that they can find 5 or 6 arcs worth playing.
It isn't perfect but I think it is a better plan than what we have now.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.