"But, What will it Cost, Man?"
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-11-18 13:35 in The Market and Inventions
another factor:
you can get nearly any generic IO for less than crafting price thanks to badgers.
=D
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Yeah, I just bought 3 level 10 accuracies for far less than I could craft them. The Luck charm alone would have cost 10 times that.
Some good deals out there!
Quote:
Funnily enough, I've listed a bunch of level 10 IOs this past week for 1 influence each. When I didn't just outright destroy them to get them out of my inventory.|
Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
Yeah, I just bought 3 level 10 accuracies for far less than I could craft them. The Luck charm alone would have cost 10 times that.
Some good deals out there! |
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
You could cut the SO price in half or more by buying them on the market.
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Quote:
My experience with SOs is that they are much, much, much, much less available on the market than IOs.
|
Originally Posted by StarGeek
You could cut the SO price in half or more by buying them on the market.
|
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
During Issue 9 Beta I worked up a similar set of data to compare the cost of keeping SO's in various stages of effectiveness vs. using common IO's in various ways, both to compare costs and to compare enhancement values. I'll have to see if I can dig that spreadsheet up... if I haven't lost it since I've gone through a few OS installs and one new computer since then. It will be interesting to compare my thoughts and numbers from way back then to these.
@Quasadu
"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick
Quote:
The key is that you have to adjust your timing. In the pre-IO days, when I leveled up and my SOs were all yellow, I bought a massive number of shiny +3 SOs. If you try that approach with crafted IOs you're likely to run into stiff "buy it nao" penalties. |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
you can get nearly any generic IO for less than crafting price thanks to badgers.
|
If on the other hand you place low-ish bids (which requires an understanding of what a reasonable bid is without being unrealistically low) and are willing to wait 24 hours, you can get great deals. But that means looking forward and doing some planning, something that many (most?) casual players don't do.
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Some good points here guys - I appreciate the feedback.
Even though 10-20M is pretty inexpensive in this economy (though most
"casual" gamers wouldn't know that), I agree that there are several things
that could be done to lower the costs more - that's part of what the
guide would be intended to address.
I agree with Goat on the point that SOs, by and large, aren't available on
the market at anywhere near the quantities you'd want if you were equipping
a toon with them. For the most part, you're really relying on vendors for
those, from a build perspective. IOs are much better in that regard, being
available in good quantities at the market, as well as fixed price at tables.
@Quasadu: I'd be curious to see your numbers if you can locate them -
I'd imagine them to be pretty similar (so it would be a good sanity check
on my math), and for IOs, I'd be curious on where you drew your arbitrary
cost for salvage (I think 30K is pretty generous actually, but it's volatile
enough that different viewpoints would be interesting)
@Sardan: Timing is, indeed, a very key issue if a player wants to keep costs
down - in a couple ways. First, as you mention, to avoid NAO pricing -
smart shopping (planned in advance) is by far the best way to lower IO
costs - no doubt at all (whether it means you buy from badgers, or simply
avoid the volatility swings).
The other key aspect where timing matters, is when to *start* accruing
significant funds (ie. start using the Market intelligently).
Note the costs at L22 and L37 - at L22, costs jump by a factor of 450+ percent,
and at L37 they've nearly tripled over that (we mitigated that somewhat with
the "Frugal" IO strategy). Still, looking at these numbers, I see now why
those were such crunch points back in the old pre-market days.
Between L17 and L37, level basically doubled, but SO enhancement costs
increased by a a factor of 13. Ouch.
The other part of that is this: If you got 1.5 million early - that gets you
all the way through the purchase of L22 SOs. Unfortunately, that only just
gets you the L15 set of IOs. Even with the "Frugal IO" approach, you'd need
nearly 4.5M by L22 - an early start is vital there.
We've repeatedly proved that just playing the game and selling drops will
get most players 100K or so, by L10, but 1.5M is a pretty big hurdle, that
early, for a non-marketeer, and 4.5M may well seem unreachable.
With TOs/DOs, that strategy is enough, but for IOs, I believe it's pretty
important to get the casual player over "Marketing Fear" early if they're
going to go that route. At least, to the point where they'll use beginner
market strategies (ie. sell drops, recipe vendoring, etc.)
Anyway, once again, I appreciate reading the thoughts you've all posted -
they're clarifying points I'd want to cover if I turn this into an actual guide.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Another option to help keep cost down is having access to someone with fieldcrafter. I know that many can't take advantage of that, but if you are in a largeish SG, you can save on crafting costs.
I try to have one toon in each SG with so that I can equip my lowbies with them via an enhancement table. You can use gleemail but mailing that many IO's can be a pain in the rear.
Everyone knows that any level 50 struggles to have anything close to 18 million inf. in this game.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
Quote:
@Dumpleberry: Agreed - it isn't a L50 issue per se. But, how many L20-22's | Everyone knows that any level 50 struggles to have anything close to 18 million inf. in this game. |
have 5M (unless they got a lucky drop, or participated in the market)?
Also, L50's can fall into the category #2 description below as well.
The thought behind what I'm writing is twofold really.
I think a lot of complaints we see in forum fit into 3 categories:
1> New / Inexperienced players that freak over the cost of a Luck Charm
2> Players trying to figure out how to buy decent sets for their toons
when they've only accrued 20-50 M (and want to progress beyond SO's)
3> Players trying to fund uber builds and whining that 2B only gets 1-3
premium IO's.
Categories 1 & 2, I believe are similar in that they've probably not quantifed
(or planned) for what they'll need, nor developed even the beginner level
marketing skills to achieve it. So, they (sort of) shoot themselves in the
foot by shopping only when they need to fill a slot, or decide they now
need sets, and get stuck with NAO pricing and associated sticker shock.
The second related part is that their "economic scale" isn't correct.
WE know that 20M is *one* decent (not even great) IO sale...
On the other hand, THEY have been selling TO's for 40-100 inf apiece - so 20M
"appears" astronomical. Additionally, there is a pretty pervasive perception
(however inaccurate, and ultimately self-debilitating) that market prices
are insane, and further, the prices are controlled and manipulated by
cabals of evil marketeers.
As a result, there is a clear attitude (visible in many of our forums if you
look closely) advocating avoidance of the market.
In other words, I think there is a pattern to the behavior that many (most?)
players don't even look at that stuff until higher levels (but in the case of
group #2 players, they're typically still underfunded, even so).
I'd like to attempt to alter that mindset a little by putting practical costs
into better perspective, and possibly providing some ideas to help them
start debunking those common market perceptions for themselves.
I know - probably whizzing in the wind, but, I'm silly that way...
Regards,
4
PS> For category 3 - stop whining ... if you can make 2 Billion, you can
make 10 - it's not any harder...
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
I'd add another category, or expand on #2. That is the people who don't understand the difference in price between Kinetic combat and Smashing Haymaker, or between Obliteration and Multistrike does not equate to a similar difference in performance. People with money pay huge amounts for a small gain. Too many people start to move from SOs to IOs and think they need the best, not realizing what an enormous difference getting the low-end sets will make.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Don't SO's expire every 3 levels? Not 5 as was mentioned by the OP. In that case, i dont think anyone would go 2 levels with red slots, so you may wanna alter the original figures a tad.
Quote:
Unless people want the better bonuses like the 3.75% melee from stuff like Oblits, compared to like a .9% fire/cold resist or crap from the "cheap" sets. I'd rather go for the bonuses that actually matter. Those other sets are only good in frankenslotting builds, imo.
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
I'd add another category, or expand on #2. That is the people who don't understand the difference in price between Kinetic combat and Smashing Haymaker, or between Obliteration and Multistrike does not equate to a similar difference in performance. People with money pay huge amounts for a small gain. Too many people start to move from SOs to IOs and think they need the best, not realizing what an enormous difference getting the low-end sets will make.
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if you are lvl 22 and buy lvl 25 SOs, they will last until you lvl past 28, which is actually 6 lvls, but you can buy lvl 30 SOs at 27 which is only 5 lvls
Easist way to to make said money? At level 20 start running alignment missions. By the time you hit 22 and can slot lvl 25 IOs you should be able to use hero/villian merits to buy a miracle unique recipe and sell it for 100M+.
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Quote:
Ah. Its been years since ive even bought a SO. lol. I didn't remember them lasting past the current level that they were. My bad.
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
if you are lvl 22 and buy lvl 25 SOs, they will last until you lvl past 28, which is actually 6 lvls, but you can buy lvl 30 SOs at 27 which is only 5 lvls
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Quote:
SOs work when you're their level +/-3. Since the stores sell levels that are multiples of five you can buy them every 5 levels and have overlap. Basically you buy them at the following levels (or the following levels +1 which is slightly better since you can combine your old enhancements):|
Originally Posted by eryq2
Don't SO's expire every 3 levels? Not 5 as was mentioned by the OP. In that case, i dont think anyone would go 2 levels with red slots, so you may wanna alter the original figures a tad.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
Unless people want the better bonuses like the 3.75% melee from stuff like Oblits, compared to like a .9% fire/cold resist or crap from the "cheap" sets. I'd rather go for the bonuses that actually matter. Those other sets are only good in frankenslotting builds, imo.
|
Eryq2 was quoted as saying
Quote:
...All my builds are frankenslotting builds until level 40-50. How bout yours?
| Unless people want the better bonuses like the 3.75% melee from stuff like Oblits, compared to like a .9% fire/cold resist or crap from the "cheap" sets. I'd rather go for the bonuses that actually matter. Those other sets are only good in frankenslotting builds, imo. |
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
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@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
This.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
I'd add another category, or expand on #2. That is the people who don't understand the difference in price between Kinetic combat and Smashing Haymaker, or between Obliteration and Multistrike does not equate to a similar difference in performance. People with money pay huge amounts for a small gain. Too many people start to move from SOs to IOs and think they need the best, not realizing what an enormous difference getting the low-end sets will make.
|
I have NO CLUE which sets to look for or why they may be good for one character but not so good for another. I think a lot of you take your knowledge of the game for granted.
Literally I don't know those names and I don't know what they would slot in. I know the mechanics but not specifics. I may be a step up from a lot of more casual players too. (well maybe... it's possible.. shut up!!)
Anyway, without that knowledge it is hard to make wise decisions when selling. All a lot of us have to go by is the last 5 list.
This may help.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
I didn't know either during the 1st month or so and only slotted my drops. I looked up a lot of stuff in paragon wiki and example builds in the forums. Then I took the time to learn Mids to figure out why so and so IO was in the example build. With Mids, you can try different slotting choices and see how it affects your powers. Despite all that, eight months later, I'm still learning, but know enough to deal with the market .
|
Originally Posted by Bloodminion
I have NO CLUE which sets to look for or why they may be good for one character but not so good for another. I think a lot of you take your knowledge of the game for granted.
Literally I don't know those names and I don't know what they would slot in. I know the mechanics but not specifics. I may be a step up from a lot of more casual players too. (well maybe... it's possible.. shut up!!) |
If any of my characters are low on funds, I just head them over to the AE and run some of the great player-made content there. Before I know it, I have enough tickets to fully DO or SO out my build, AND I've pocketed some inf. for later.
I just wish that they would fix some of the availability issues with certain DO flavor enhancements there...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by FourSpeed
Since L25 IOs are roughly equal to even level SOs, let's simply upgrade slots that we add past that level rather than replace everything each time.
<snip chart> Better? I think so too - it even shaves 3M+ off the SO build for the same relative performance. |
Just a question if you feel like adding it up.
What if you continued to use L25/L30 of the most frequently used recipes (acc,dmg,end,rchg) and got them memorized, instead of moving up to 35s/40s.
Would that save you enough money to go to level L45s in everything at 42+ and still be cost competitive with SOs?
I was mulling around an idea for a guide that looks at the minimum cost
picture for equipping a toon with a low-end SO build.
Since the devs maintain the game is balanced around SO's, I figured that
would be a good place to start trying to get a handle on minimum costs.
The guide idea is to conservatively quantify those costs, and discuss
some low-end strategies for earning that amount of inf.
In the meantime, I thought I'd share the current charts as a general info
source (particularly in light of the threads whining about Billions in cost for shinies)
The basic methodology is to slot TOs/DOs/SOs every 5 levels according to
the "old school" approach to enhancing toons. Full replacement costs are
calculated for those levels by taking (the most expensive) damage enh
price and multiplying that by the total number of slots needed.
That should give an approximate worst case cost.
So, Here ya go.
Simple SO Build
=============
Total Slot Total Level Enh Type Slots Cost Level Cost -------------------------------------------- 2 TO (L5) 6 500 3,000 7 " (L10) 14 1,000 14,000 12 DO (L15) 21 5,985 125,685 17 " (L20) 29 7,980 231,420 22 SO (L25) 36 30,000 1,080,000 27 " (L30) 44 36,000 1,584,000 32 " (L35) 52 42,000 2,184,000 37 " (L40) 65 48,000 3,120,000 42 " (L45) 76 54,000 4,104,000 47 " (L50) 87 60,000 5,220,000 50 " (L50) 94(+7) 60,000 420,000 ============================================ Total Character Cost: 18,086,105its entire career to fully slot up with standard TO/DO/SO enhancements.
I also looked at the similar case for common IOs with some simple assumptions...
L10 IO > All TOs
L15 IO > All DO's
L25, L30, L35, L40 IOs correspond to SOs (within 1.5% or less), at even,
+1, +2, +3 strength respectively (so we don't need to slot higher than L40
IOs in anything)
Salvage is all common, and primary IOs use 2 pieces. Of course, prices for
it can be all over the place, but with simple planning and patience you can
get them for under 15K a piece (and in my experience, for much less than
that, but again, I'm being conservative here). So, for each IO, I counted
30K in salvage costs, along with the table price for recipe and crafting.
Here's the resulting chart...
Simple IO Build
=============
Total Slot Cost Total Level Enh Type Slots Recipe Svg Craft Level Cost ------------------------------------------------------------ 2 TO (L5) 6 -- -- 500 3,000 7 IO (L10) 14 1,700 30K 3,400 491,400 12 " (L15) 21 3,550 " 7,100 853,650 22 " (L25) 36 17,750 " 35,550 2,997,000 27 " (L30) 44 30,975 " 41,300 4,500,100 32 " (L35) 52 47,025 " 62,700 7,265,700 37 " (L40) 65 74,475 " 99,300 13,245,375 38-50 " (L40) 94(+29) 74,475 " 99,300 5,909,475 ============================================================= Total Character Cost: 35,265,700Isn't the conventional wisdom that IO's are cheaper in the long run over SOs?
Confession Time...
It is... I've misled you a bit with that 2nd chart... My Bad
The key part I neglected (intentionally) is the simple fact that IOs never
expire. So, we don't actually need to replace them like we do with SOs.
Since L25 IOs are roughly equal to even level SOs, let's simply upgrade
slots that we add past that level rather than replace everything each time.
To be sure, the performance won't ramp up as quickly that way, but it will
still be on par with SOs, and since we're looking at "minimum cost" here,
that's good enough for what I'm trying to show.
Unsurprisingly, that approach has a huge effect on price.
Here's that chart.
Frugal IO Build
=============
Total Slot Cost Total Level Enh Type Slots Recipe Svg Craft Level Cost ------------------------------------------------------------ 2 TO (L5) 6 -- -- 500 3,000 7 IO (L10) 14 1,700 30K 3,400 491,400 12 " (L15) 21 3,550 " 7,100 853,650 22 " (L25) 36 17,750 " 35,550 2,997,000 27 " (L30) 44(+8) 30,975 " 41,300 818,200 32 " (L35) 52(+8) 47,025 " 62,700 1,117,800 37 " (L40) 65(+13) 74,475 " 99,300 2,649,075 38-50 " (L40) 94(+29) 74,475 " 99,300 5,909,475 ============================================================= 4.49M 3.87M 6.48M Total Character Cost: 14,839,600relative performance.
I also included a breakdown of recipe, salvage and crafting costs - I find it
somewhat amusing that salvage is actually the smallest number of the 3,
given all the kvetching we hear about it.
Finally, since you can get both the recipes and salvage on the market, I'd
wager that a savvy shopper could get the cost down to 10-12M or less
with some planning and patient bidding.
Anyway, I thought the numbers were interesting, so I decided to share
them here first before incorporating them into a guide (assuming I do).
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.