"But, What will it Cost, Man?"
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-11-18 13:35 in The Market and Inventions
one could absolutely get to 50 slotting drops....but then, one could get to 50 totally unslotted, so.....
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Speaking for myself, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be particularly pleased with |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
one could absolutely get to 50 slotting drops....but then, one could get to 50 totally unslotted, so.....
|
either of those builds, but then again, I'm Ebil...
Cheers,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Quote:
I can barely stand it with subpar IOs any more. |
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
Speaking for myself, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be particularly pleased with
either of those builds, but then again, I'm Ebil... Cheers, 4 |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Since I seem to generate some sort of negativity when I point out basic fundamentals like you can slot for free with drops and then am instructed on how we are trying to educate the newbs on how to play the market I will once again point out this scenario:
You are not everyone else. What is "good enough" for you is different from everyone else.
I have a 6 year old. Yes.. 6... years... old.
He has a level 29 or 30 blaster. He does all of the power picks. He picks all of the slots. He slots enhancements about once a week - when he remembers - and generally they are outdated when slotted (-3 level SO's for example).
He has a blast.
No where is it required for everyone in this game to have the ultimate build. No where in this game does an ultimate build have to cost billions of inf. If those are your goals, great. But seriously people, this game is so mind numbingly easy that a 6 year old can do it and have fun.
There is no challenge to this game. None. When some sort of challenge is implemented into this game, people complain that its "too hard" and eventually it gets a nerf.
You can play unslotted. You can play with horrible power picks and you can play by blindly picking slots. And you can do all of this and still have fun.
The fun part is for you to make up. Your fun does not dictate everyone else's fun.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Misaligned
Since I seem to generate some sort of negativity when I point out basic fundamentals like you can slot for free with drops and then am instructed on how we are trying to educate the newbs on how to play the market I will once again point out this scenario:
You are not everyone else. What is "good enough" for you is different from everyone else. I have a 6 year old. Yes.. 6... years... old. He has a level 29 or 30 blaster. He does all of the power picks. He picks all of the slots. He slots enhancements about once a week - when he remembers - and generally they are outdated when slotted (-3 level SO's for example). He has a blast. No where is it required for everyone in this game to have the ultimate build. No where in this game does an ultimate build have to cost billions of inf. If those are your goals, great. But seriously people, this game is so mind numbingly easy that a 6 year old can do it and have fun. There is no challenge to this game. None. When some sort of challenge is implemented into this game, people complain that its "too hard" and eventually it gets a nerf. You can play unslotted. You can play with horrible power picks and you can play by blindly picking slots. And you can do all of this and still have fun. The fun part is for you to make up. Your fun does not dictate everyone else's fun. |
I see - gotcha...
So, your advice to newbies is forget about inf and/or the market...
Play the game, slot what drops, and sell what you don't use -- and be happy with those results, because it works for your 6 year old.
Ok, thanks for your input.
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Quote:
I think, big picture, the point is that COX isn't terribly difficult. You can have a lot of fun and complete content w/o the best, most effective stuff. If you don't want to learn about the market, you can still enjoy the game.|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
I see - gotcha...
So, your advice to newbies is forget about inf and/or the market... Play the game, slot what drops, and sell what you don't use -- and be happy with those results, because it works for your 6 year old. Ok, thanks for your input. 4 |
If you *do* want to learn about the market, there's a bunch of extra stuff that you can do. But if you *don't*, then no big deal. Its still a fun game. But if you care about being the best, about having the most effective stuff, then yes you do need to stop being casual and figure out the most complicated, complex systems the game has. If you don't worry about that sort of thing, you can play the game, but if you *do* worry about it then you need to . . . worry about it.
Quote:
Actually, I agree with this - and yet, if it is so easy, why is it that there are|
Originally Posted by Young_Tutor
I think, big picture, the point is that COX isn't terribly difficult.
|
so many forum complaints from people who can't seem to figure out they'll
need 10-20M to slot SO's or Common IO's, (as the charts show), probably
~50M-200M or so to Frankenslot nicely, and a few Billion if they want the
premium purple goodies?
I further think that advocating an unslotted build, or just slotting drops like
somebody's 6 year old, is a cop-out, quite frankly. Additionally, this post
was never about "fun", it was about quantifying the costs for a minimum
build.
The devs say game balance revolves around SO's, like it has from day 1,
and I'd agree, and expect that the minimum helpful point would be to
advocate reaching that level, while hopefully, laying the groundwork skills
for players to achieve more than that through premium sets and purples if
they wish to carry their effort forward.
Regards,
4
PS> On a positive note, nobody appears to have issues with the math so,
I'll take that as encouraging, good news
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Quote:
I don't think there are too many just a vocal few and it's not that it's difficult to figure out it's that they are so smitten with the idea that they shouldn't have to make any effort to have the elite gear of our game but that they also deserve to have it because it is there.|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
Actually, I agree with this - and yet, if it is so easy, why is it that there are
so many forum complaints from people who can't seem to figure out they'll need 10-20M to slot SO's or Common IO's, (as the charts show), probably ~50M-200M or so to Frankenslot nicely, and a few Billion if they want the premium purple goodies? |
Left to choose between making a small effort to get the goodies or whine over the unfairness of the evil flippers in the market they choose the easier path of whining.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
Small effort to afford the goodies? Get real. If someone isn't playing the market hard or farming their tail off, it's not doable. Period. Fourspeed is spot on. If you want to IO a toon, it's not going to happen from drops. So, people are forced to use WW, which is manipulated by everyone looking for a "niche", instead of playing the "game", running missions for drops or TFs or anything that isn't involved with buying stuff off the market. |
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
I don't think there are too many just a vocal few and it's not that it's difficult to figure out it's that they are so smitten with the idea that they shouldn't have to make any effort to have the elite gear of our game but that they also deserve to have it because it is there.
Left to choose between making a small effort to get the goodies or whine over the unfairness of the evil flippers in the market they choose the easier path of whining. |
And Misaligned is right, the fun term varies. But if my definition of fun is to IO 50's, then why should i resort to drastic measures to achieve the goodies in this game? You're not going to purple or even fully IO a toon with drops recieved from missions. Unless it's AE where you can actually get recipes via tickets because they don't drop by the handful in missions. You have people buying inf with real money to afford the game pieces. If you think it doesn't happen, you're just wrong. Ive been told to hold on by a plyer before so he could go meet someone to get some inf. that he had just bought.
Just thought i'd join in the fun. But, really, if you think its more about "whining" just go run some missions and leave WW alone and purple you a build from drops or buy from the inf gained in missions..... tell me how long it takes.
Quote:
Then they don't get them. Period.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
Small effort to afford the goodies? Get real. If someone isn't playing the market hard or farming their tail off, it's not doable. Period.
|
If you want the rarest items, you have to put in the effort. It's like that in every MMO.
Quote:
| Fourspeed is spot on. If you want to IO a toon, it's not going to happen from drops. So, people are forced to use WW, which is manipulated by everyone looking for a "niche", |
Firstly, IO'ing a toon is CHEAP. CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP.
Now, if you want purple sets and PvP IO's, that's different. But you can IO a toon, for an incredible performance improvement, cheap. My scale of "cheap" is "under 50 million inf" (sometimes WAY under, depending on the powers).
Secondly, WW as a whole is not manipulated. Will someone, on occasion, be messing with an item? Sure. At any given time, there might be a dozen or more items where price/supply is aberrant. Out of THOUSANDS. If something is being 'messed with', go buy the other 39 out of 40 things you need and come back to that one in a few days.
Quote:
| You have people buying inf with real money to afford the game pieces. If you think it doesn't happen, you're just wrong. Ive been told to hold on by a plyer before so he could go meet someone to get some inf. that he had just bought. |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
because of the purple prices lately i usually only slot what i get from drops, i never sell any purp recipe, and i ask among friends if they could keep an eye out on something for me and then we negotiate a trade
i do have to agree that excluding purps and pvp IOs, majority of builds are fairly cheap (as in less than 200 mil if you get some of the more expensive stuff or buy it nao price)
The term "cheap" varies like the shapes of clouds on any given day.
I just IO'd an Ice tank. I paid for all the IOs at the "nao" price. I got it soft capped SnL, Melee and both NRG's. It cost me roughly 400mil. To me, that's pretty cheap whereas someone else would say it was alot.
After her, i also IO'd my first brute. (which im not happy with atm) It cost me about 800mil at "nao" prices. Still, fairly cheap, imo.
Neither set has any purples, though. Way overpriced atm.
@ Ironblade. You say i lie about building a toon from IOs that are dropped? Please, create a build, play it to 50. ONLY slot what falls. Whether it be TO, DO, SO or IOs. Please, please, please do it and post you build in 10 level increments. I'd be VERY interested in seeing what drops you get that AREN'T from WW. GL with that, sir.
Quote:
This is really simple. The idea that your fun is tied to swiftly completing purpled builds builds is whack. It doesn't really matter if you agree. Almost no one behind the wheels of a modern MMO will agree to that for whatever the equivalent is in their game. It doesn't matter what the market is like there, or what the acquisition methods. If the goods in question are "uber", it's pretty universally going to take you time to buy them.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
And Misaligned is right, the fun term varies. But if my definition of fun is to IO 50's, then why should i resort to drastic measures to achieve the goodies in this game? You're not going to purple or even fully IO a toon with drops recieved from missions.
|
Quote:
| You have people buying inf with real money to afford the game pieces. If you think it doesn't happen, you're just wrong. Ive been told to hold on by a plyer before so he could go meet someone to get some inf. that he had just bought. |
I have never done anything like use RMT. I hardly ever farm, because it bores me. I haven't "played" the market since I11. I punch stuff, use my brain, and I have 11B inf in liquidity, and I have 7 richly IO'd characters, most with 1-3 purple sets and one with a PvP+3% defense.
I'm sorry, but I am proof your claims are wrong. I'm not even trying that hard. I'm just patient. If your definition of fun requires maximal builds with little or no patience then you're out of luck.
What's patient? I have made, on a Dark Melee/Regen Scrapper, right now looking at my Inf display, 450M inf since the evening of Nov. 16th. I've earned that doing nothing but playing Tip and Paper missions <edit> a set of patron arcs</edit> and a couple of TFs. I have not "played" the market at all - no flipping, no niches, nothing. I have not sold any single drop that's netted me more than 10M inf - I have only sold uncommons and "crappy" rares like LotG: Def/Rech. (The pool B, not the +7.5% global.). I've crafted recipes and sold them.
That's net. I've spent about 50 million inf on stuff I needed after a respec and various crafting fees.
Nine days. At this rate I'd earn 20B inf in 44.4 days.
And you know what's the best part? I've gotten other stuff that I can use. I have "earned" more than that inf suggests, because I've hoarded good stuff I plan to use and thus don't have to buy, or could sell later for more money.
Now imagine I was spending my merits. Imagine I was playing something with more AoEs who could kill faster. Imagine I was running more TFs, and earning more merits. It'd all be better, faster, stronger.
Everyone is not me. Everyone will not be able to match my numbers. But frankly, I'm not convinced I'm all that good. I just think I have a pretty good idea what I'm doing. Anyone who has a good idea what they're doing at least has the potential to match or exceed me. People like me tell others in this forum what we do. Where's it going wrong?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
That's not what I consider as building "from drops".|
Originally Posted by eryq2
@ Ironblade. You say i lie about building a toon from IOs that are dropped? Please, create a build, play it to 50. ONLY slot what falls. Whether it be TO, DO, SO or IOs. Please, please, please do it and post you build in 10 level increments. I'd be VERY interested in seeing what drops you get that AREN'T from WW. GL with that, sir.
|
I include SELLING stuff that drops (at WW or vendors) so I can BUY stuff from WW. Seriously, what do you do when you get a drop you can't use? Throw it away? Only a fool would do what you're suggesting, when there are so many resources available.
I contend that crafting for inf is not necessary. Flipping is not necessary. Farming is not necessary. You can IO a toon using only the VALUE of the stuff that drops. Sell what you can't use so that you can afford stuff you want.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
That's hard to believe. I have the front page full of "richly IO'd" 50s. With purples, and very expensive buy it nao builds. I know what i have to do to afford them. That doesn't include running some paper missions. You must be getting some very lucky drops to sell. I farm mobs of x8 for hours per day. I don't use WW, other than just to sell the drops or keep the ones i want. I have about 30bil liquid across 2 accounts and its not from just doing papers. Congrats on your luck err skillz.
|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
This is really simple. The idea that your fun is tied to swiftly completing purpled builds builds is whack. It doesn't really matter if you agree. Almost no one behind the wheels of a modern MMO will agree to that for whatever the equivalent is in their game. It doesn't matter what the market is like there, or what the acquisition methods. If the goods in question are "uber", it's pretty universally going to take you time to buy them.
Those people are (a) stupid or (b) terminally impatient. Honestly, given the reputation of RMT providers, I think they're both. I have never done anything like use RMT. I hardly ever farm, because it bores me. I haven't "played" the market since I11. I punch stuff, use my brain, and I have 11B inf in liquidity, and I have 7 richly IO'd characters, most with 1-3 purple sets and one with a PvP+3% defense. I'm sorry, but I am proof your claims are wrong. I'm not even trying that hard. I'm just patient. If your definition of fun requires maximal builds with little or no patience then you're out of luck. What's patient? I have made, on a Dark Melee/Regen Scrapper, right now looking at my Inf display, 450M inf since the evening of Nov. 16th. I've earned that doing nothing but playing Tip and Paper missions <edit> a set of patron arcs</edit> and a couple of TFs. I have not "played" the market at all - no flipping, no niches, nothing. I have not sold any single drop that's netted me more than 10M inf - I have only sold uncommons and "crappy" rares like LotG: Def/Rech. (The pool B, not the +7.5% global.). I've crafted recipes and sold them. That's net. I've spent about 50 million inf on stuff I needed after a respec and various crafting fees. Nine days. At this rate I'd earn 20B inf in 44.4 days. And you know what's the best part? I've gotten other stuff that I can use. I have "earned" more than that inf suggests, because I've hoarded good stuff I plan to use and thus don't have to buy, or could sell later for more money. Now imagine I was spending my merits. Imagine I was playing something with more AoEs who could kill faster. Imagine I was running more TFs, and earning more merits. It'd all be better, faster, stronger. Everyone is not me. Everyone will not be able to match my numbers. But frankly, I'm not convinced I'm all that good. I just think I have a pretty good idea what I'm doing. Anyone who has a good idea what they're doing at least has the potential to match or exceed me. People like me tell others in this forum what we do. Where's it going wrong? |
Alright, I went back and did a careful accounting based on my chat logs. Turning on chat logging records drops, too. After reviewing it, I do have extra inf in there from a trade with a SG mate. So let me add this up here and redo my "patience" calculation.
So here's an exact accounting of my non-common drops.
Code:
There are two purples in there. I haven't sold them. The LotG 7.5% in the list is a level 25 direct merit purchase that I bought and slotted. The Impervious Skin Mez Resist was a mob drop on a TF. It's still for sale, and if it sells it probably won't be for more than 10M inf.11-16-2010 16:27:41 You received Calibrated Accuracy: Acc/Dam/Rech (Recipe). 11-16-2010 17:38:10 You received Lethargic Repose: Acc/End (Recipe). 11-16-2010 18:02:49 You received Detonation: Dam/End/Range (Recipe). 11-16-2010 18:06:57 You received Blood Mandate: Acc/Dam (Recipe). 11-16-2010 19:27:14 You received Nightmare: Acc/Rech (Recipe). 11-16-2010 19:33:31 You received Blood Mandate: Damage (Recipe). 11-17-2010 19:13:07 You received Air Burst: Dam/Range (Recipe). 11-17-2010 19:20:30 You received Cleaving Blow: Acc/Dam (Recipe). 11-17-2010 19:27:00 You received Hecatomb : Dam/Rech/Acc (Superior) (Recipe). 11-17-2010 21:16:58 You received Pacing of the Turtle: Acc/End (Recipe). 11-17-2010 21:45:26 You received Force Feedback : Knockback/Rech (Recipe). 11-17-2010 22:04:12 You received Multi-strike: Dam/End (Recipe). 11-17-2010 22:26:15 You received Cleaving Blow: Acc/Rech (Recipe). 11-18-2010 20:48:03 You received Crushing Impact: Acc/Dam (Recipe). 11-18-2010 20:48:26 You received Essence of Curare: Acc/Rech (Recipe). 11-18-2010 21:16:23 You received Exploit Weakness: Acc/Dam (Recipe). 11-18-2010 21:22:04 You received Tempered Readiness: Dam/Slow (Recipe). 11-18-2010 21:22:54 You received Mocking Beratement: Taunt/Rech (Recipe). 11-18-2010 21:29:37 You received Enfeebled Operation: Acc/End (Recipe). 11-18-2010 21:34:08 You received Crushing Impact: Dam/End (Recipe). 11-18-2010 22:43:03 You received Soulbound Allegiance : Rech/Acc (Superior) (Recipe). 11-19-2010 00:08:02 You received Detonation: Acc/Dam (Recipe). 11-19-2010 00:25:28 You received Exploit Weakness: Dam/Rech (Recipe). 11-19-2010 17:52:23 You received Mocking Beratement: Taunt/Range (Recipe). 11-19-2010 18:08:04 You received Glimpse of the Abyss: Fear/Range (Recipe). 11-19-2010 18:13:48 You received Cleaving Blow: Dam/Rech (Recipe). 11-20-2010 01:41:23 You received Doctored Wounds: Heal (Recipe). 11-20-2010 01:42:01 You received Kinetic Crash : Knockback/Dam/Endurance (Recipe). 11-20-2010 01:47:11 You received Analyze Weakness: Defense Debuff (Recipe). 11-20-2010 02:25:15 You received Efficacy Adaptor : Rech/Acc (Recipe). 11-20-2010 03:02:16 You received Doctored Wounds: End/Heal (Recipe). 11-20-2010 11:11:24 You received Enfeebled Operation: End/Immob (Recipe). 11-20-2010 16:03:54 You received Exploit Weakness: Acc/Dam (Recipe). 11-21-2010 07:28:31 You received Enfeebled Operation: End/Immob (Recipe). 11-21-2010 07:29:09 You received Calibrated Accuracy: Acc/Dam/Rech (Recipe). 11-21-2010 13:28:33 You received Luck of the Gambler: +7.5% Recharge Speed (Recipe). 11-21-2010 14:58:35 You received Tempered Readiness: Dam/Slow (Recipe). 11-21-2010 15:09:14 You received Thunderstrike: Acc/Dam/Rech (Recipe). 11-21-2010 15:10:50 You received Perplex: Confuse/Rech (Recipe). 11-21-2010 15:13:22 You received Dampened Spirits : To Hit DeBuff/End Reduction (Recipe). 11-21-2010 16:24:46 You received Pulverizing Fisticuffs: Acc/Dam (Recipe). 11-22-2010 10:12:53 You received Siphon Insight: To Hit Debuff/End/Rech (Recipe). 11-22-2010 11:08:16 You received Enfeebled Operation: Acc/Immob (Recipe). 11-22-2010 11:15:46 You received Cleaving Blow: Acc/Rech (Recipe). 11-22-2010 11:24:08 You received Enfeebled Operation: Acc/Immob (Recipe). 11-22-2010 12:41:01 You received Red Fortune: Def/Rech (Recipe). 11-22-2010 18:55:22 You received Red Fortune: Endurance (Recipe). 11-22-2010 19:36:08 You received Mako's Bite: Dam/End (Recipe). 11-22-2010 20:38:13 You received Rope-a-dope: End/Stun (Recipe). 11-23-2010 22:59:16 You received Luck of the Gambler: Def/Rech (Recipe). 11-23-2010 23:03:54 You received Kinetic Crash : Knockback/Dam/Endurance (Recipe). 11-24-2010 20:58:10 You received Multi-strike: Dam/Rech (Recipe). 11-24-2010 21:53:36 You received Impervious Skin: +Mez Resist (Recipe). 11-24-2010 23:05:04 You received Enfeebled Operation: Immob/Range (Recipe). 11-24-2010 23:47:07 You received Undermined Defenses: Defense Debuff/Recharge/Endurance Reduction (Recipe). 11-24-2010 23:59:02 You received Multi-strike: Acc/End (Recipe). 11-25-2010 11:44:43 You received Perplex: Confuse/Range (Recipe). 11-25-2010 12:40:43 You received Air Burst: Dam/End (Recipe). 11-25-2010 12:45:34 You received Nightmare: Acc/Rech (Recipe). 11-25-2010 20:34:38 You received Trap of the Hunter: Acc/End (Recipe). 11-25-2010 21:27:01 You received Trap of the Hunter: Immob/Acc (Recipe). 11-25-2010 21:37:57 You received Blood Mandate: Acc/End (Recipe). 11-25-2010 22:05:35 You received Calibrated Accuracy: Acc/Int (Recipe). 11-25-2010 22:48:36 You received Rope-a-dope: Acc/Stun/Rech (Recipe).
Most of the rest is junk, and it was either deleted outright or sold to an NPC. I crafted and sold the Crushing Impacts, Red Fortunes, Doctored Wounds, Efficacy Adaptors and the LotG Def/Rech all sold for 5M to 10M inf apiece once crafted. I usually but not always had the salvage I needed to craft them, meaning that my costs were only crafting and listing fees. (I had to buy the rare salvage for the Impervious Skin, but it was all dirt cheap.)
All my market sales added up to 134,284,335 inf
I also got as drops 178 common recipes, not shown above. I'm going to call that roughly 17,800,000 inf. (I could get an exact number, but I'm too lazy for this exercise.)
Everything else was inf from kills. Between the end of 11/16 and the end of 11/25 I defeated 8302 enemies, and received inf from kills 10867 times. (The extra times were where teammates defeated enemies, mission completes and oddball things like glowies.) This totaled 128,247,487 inf.
That's roughly 280,331,822 in earnings, either from combat creation or market sales, with a fudge factor thrown in for common recipes (the smallest contribution).
Of course, that's ignoring the value of my two purples (one mediocre and one very pricey), and my 182 reward merits. (I forgot to include merits from my story arcs and an extra TF. I netted -18 merits for the nine days after the LotG purchase.) Edit: I also attended a Hami raid and picked up a Nucleous Hamidon Enhancer which I gave away, because I have huge stash of them in my base.
But anyway, at that rate, 20B inf would take about 70 days of play.
So, now that we've got a more accurate number, do we really think it's unreasonable for it to take a bit over two months to make 20B inf playing the way I was, bearing in mind that's almost certainly still an over-estimate? That's one really tricked out character, or a pretty decent number of less richly decked out ones.
Do you think the devs think that's an unreasonable number?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I have to say, your numbers are impressive. I can't know how much time you spent playing in that span (unless I missed your saying it), but your results are certainly credible. Playing about an hour a day just running tip missions on a 50 prolly nets me about 50 million per day on average. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
But anyway, at that rate, 20B inf would take about 70 days of play.
So, now that we've got a more accurate number, do we really think it's unreasonable for it to take a bit over two months to make 20B inf playing the way I was, bearing in mind that's almost certainly still an over-estimate? That's one really tricked out character, or a pretty decent number of less richly decked out ones. Do you think the devs think that's an unreasonable number? |
Which is about 40 days to get to the per-character influence cap at a pretty darn casual pace.
Leaving that aside, and just to reinforce a point you made -- the 20 billion you quote far exceeds what I would consider to be any reasonable or even practically useful goal for any one character build. By my count, you need about 12-13 billion to make a character about as tricked out as anyone should expect to be. That's four purple sets @ 400 billion per piece (in other words, the more expensive purples), a Gladiator's Armor proc @ 2-3 billion, and an extra 2-3 billion for whatever's leftover.
Anything much beyond that, and you'd basically have to go to the Blue_Centurion school of spending money for its own sake. In other words, paying no attention to what your influence is actually doing for you.
What would that sort of build even compare with, in that giant fantasy MMO everyone always talks about? How much hardcore raiding would it take to get there? Why is it that so many people complain about not having enough long-term goals for high-level characters (the elusive end-game content) when apparently they're not interested in spending some time to reach them?
In any case, the price of purples should fall at least appreciably when I-19 comes out, encouraging people to play outside of the AE with their 50s.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
|
Quote:
fix'd. | That's four purple sets @ 400 million per piece (in other words, the more expensive purples) |
@UberGuy:
Excellent - I truly appreciate seeing some hard numbers from actual play.
Given what you posted, I'm assuming this is on an L50 toon (you got purple
drops after all).
I, like Obitus, would love to know the relative number of hours this entailed,
and also how well (loosely speaking), the toon is built, slotted and enhanced.
In any case, it is definitely strong supporting evidence for income amounts that
can be consistently made on high level characters.
That should be very encouraging news for folks that fall into the cash-strapped
category my cost analysis was covering - clearly, once they get past the
minimum cost builds, and play at high level awhile, they should be rolling in
enough dough to start working towards enhancement upgrades for their
characters.
Nice Work - I appreciate you sharing those results here.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Let me poke the logs a bit, and see what I can come up with. It took me an hour and change to dig up and post that info above, and I would rather play right now. (I have the day off.) But rough guestimate, if you pick out the seemingly contiguous time spans out of the timestamps in the uncommon/rare drop table, above and add 30 minutes to each one, that should give you a rough idea of how long I was playing. Most days I probably get between 2-4 hours of play time in. I have a hard time guessing how much of my play time is spent fighting. I chat, poke the market, wait for teams and raids to form, etc., so I'm obviously not producing drops or inf full time.
Maybe I can work up a histogram of defeats per hour plotted vs date/time. That might give a good sense of it.
Edit: Here's my build, exported directly from the game using the ridulously kick-*** feature to do so in Titan Sentinel. It's unquestionably an expensive build, but (a) it's DM/Regen - it's not going to be in the high-end of kill rates just because DM is so limited in AoE capability and (b) the fact I had a "complete" build is one the reason I picked such a large target number of 20B. A cheaper but more AoE capable build would probably compare very favorably.
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1469;758;1516;HEX;| |78DA9D535B535251145E070E2270B82821E21515511110AA07B3667A482B0B14457| |DC80B73A41D3232C000CEE85B3FA0275F7CEA8734FD93FA01FD856652695D0E4C3D| |D619F8BE7DF9D6DA6BADBD76FE72DD00F8F81C34DF8B9AD96E978AE596D96CAA962| |36F56AA65A3689ED654B45833AF54CB090091DE7E29AF6A4AA5D7CDD6B90C27FB3B| |EBEA83AAB7557A5755545DB5CC4EB5511FDAAC9FA996AA77D2BD815168346AE99C3| |29BD57A45262FAB9DBA6AB7DD3C2936957AEFB5D62B671D5445369AD572BAD8316B| |E7784CB171512BE5CD7647B5AE4631B487F8E718F9EB3AE01DD23CD80E9162603B4| |28A837E8CB400FA09D3408925EB64A5B1950D76709081817DA42C0CC67031096DA7| |B58F6EB55F36DEB9454A83FBDE4672F71D2F1A5D21B003246003ADEC62A5DBDFB23| |F5F9EBDFBB69802DB482908143472F512E50E2B0A4714483E7CCDFE866FF8AC0B14| |38AD289CCF9006ECF0A0C7ABC8BA1D467A7C8ABC02A3793EF6159AB9AC485C1209E| |FA4606C8B6763DB1CC284443282728F44A279EE806C2742381F8530EE78C591E6FD| |C6A94F7DB7D149AF71C76F05E7DF61A753BBEC6DAAC8B3E89ED03EA71E3DE09903A| |D86C40A86529CB3139782B2640BEE70903362331363C1200A42962024759AB9E602| |CDDD70B9665110B604E16516CCFD45972888F085761D11BACE14C46ED93476C739C| |5EE39A7B85C679C6E310B6FD06ADC2AE2788E538B4B1117B684E43A170A4C1ACA27| |ADD426BBF8C115AE4C5B259A96E65C3AE43E5C3A1292E64C4873264ADCB176B49AB| |5DA6236C3554B3C624A3E66CA39C99308E625C1A44572693A0A162D0F8B01B64905| |8544F003F35BB6325B4E72CEA934D3CA8A504628CBF4D3A0DCC55F7A4DFA2FDB63F| |1B8894766AC0ECA84352A77966B30A1F71F28FE6825F7E78AB44041EF3F37D05834| |ADF75F68D715602988FD7F7D5F8C9E3BD7AE1B718FA080A01DD0E888E098A627343| |269744A50A669F7ABD18BD8BF4A713D215823784A10C2F8E013299D1E040F8141E0| |25F011F809020441823182CF9E7FCEE837DDB628A4| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
nbd. Basically, I'm just trying to (loosely) quantify your earnings/hour. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Let me poke the logs a bit, and see what I can come up with. It took me an hour and change to dig up and post that info above, and I would rather play right now. (I have the day off.)
|
Prior research in our Forum has shown a lower limit around 1M/hr and anywhere
from 10-25M/hr or so (iirc) as an upper limit for an L50's base earning potential.
So, I'll throw together a really loose estimate from what I see here (just
for unscientific giggles
) to see how/where it fits on that curve.Looking over your logs, and making some simple assumptions, here's what
I come up with...
Approximate time from your logs: ~24.5 hours.
Assuming you were active when those drops occurred, and probably some
time both before and after the drops, I basically added a (PFA - Plucked
From Air
) fudge factor of 1 hour when the session was 3 or higher, and1/2 hr when it was less than that, totalling about 7 hours.
So, I'll count total time at 31.5 hours. Since I didn't add a lot of extra
time there for chitter chatter and whatnot, I'll further assume 90% of that
was actual combat time given that all we can see here are the drop times.
So, for total combat playtime, I get a figure of 28.35 hours.
You posted sales of: ~152 M
You posted combat earnings of: 128M
You posted kills at: 8302
So, Kills/Minute is ~4.88 on a DM/Regen, which seems pretty reasonable
and combat earnings are ~4.5M per hour.
Again, that looks pretty reasonable and right in the same range as previous
research has been.
Even without the drop sales, it seems pretty clear that a couple weeks of
standard play under similar conditions should get the basic player enough
funds to decently Frankenslot (assuming ~200M cost to do that).
So, the gist of it for me comes down to covering the market skills needed
for that first 10-20M in a timely way (to slot the minimum goodies at the
levels you first need them), and then carrying those skills forward to
the point where you can earn the billions needed for the premium stuff.
In between those two points, standard L50 play should cover decent IOs
and Frankenslotted sets.
Once again, interesting information, thanks for providing it.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
This raises an interesting point.
You could, just by looking at chat logs, figure out total inf gained at each level, total drops acquired, and so on. It would in theory be possible to log a complete 1-50 run that way.
None of UberGuy's numbers sound implausible to me, though. The people I know who play 50s a lot never have to worry about money. I think the key there is that they play a fair bit and aren't expecting to be fully purpled out within a week of making 50.
Quote:
One reason I've never done this before is that your logs record all your characters. I've almost exclusively played this one character for the last week and change, because (a) I'm badging on her kind of hardcore (b) I just rebuilt her and am getting a feel for the new build (it rocks!), and (c) I hadn't played her much for a long time before this.|
Originally Posted by seebs
You could, just by looking at chat logs, figure out total inf gained at each level, total drops acquired, and so on. It would in theory be possible to log a complete 1-50 run that way.
|
That gives me an unusually clean stretch of logs unpolluted by switches to other characters, or, for that matter, where I logged in two characters at the same time on my two accounts (which logs both characters' info into the same log file).
That made it unusually easy to look at this last 9-10 days of logs and say "here's what I can do on one character."
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
You could, but it really wouldn't tell you much by itself. No one player is 'representative' of how people play. If it was accompanied by a log of what activities they did each login, that would be useful. And interesting, I think. I'd read it.
|
Originally Posted by seebs
You could, just by looking at chat logs, figure out total inf gained at each level, total drops acquired, and so on. It would in theory be possible to log a complete 1-50 run that way.
|
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
It raises another interesting question (to me) in the context of minimum cost|
Originally Posted by seebs
This raises an interesting point.
You could, just by looking at chat logs, figure out total inf gained at each level, total drops acquired, and so on. It would in theory be possible to log a complete 1-50 run that way. None of UberGuy's numbers sound implausible to me, though. The people I know who play 50s a lot never have to worry about money. I think the key there is that they play a fair bit and aren't expecting to be fully purpled out within a week of making 50. |
picture.
I think it's clear that once you hit L50, you're pretty much set if you put
some additional playtime into the toon at that level. That was also true
in the "Old Days" once you got over the L32-L37 "hump".
The question it raises for me (and any potential guide I'd write) is, can you
acquire sufficient funds, during the levelling process (ie. pre-L50) to move
up to decent Frankenslotting (ie. that 50M-200M range) without having
any marketting savvy or strategy?
Prior to A-Merits, or very good luck with drops, or external help, I'd be
inclined to say "probably not".
We looked at L50 earning potential several times, and UberGuy's toon adds
another anecdotal piece to support that, but I'm not sure anyone has put
much analysis into the results for mid-range characters using the simple
"play the game, sell your drops at the market" approach.
I'm getting curious what the L25-L35 hourly income potential looks like.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
up off the ground...
It's definitely clear that a player who struggles to fund a 15M minimal IO
build, or an 18M SO build has zero understanding or practical experience
with either of our guides -- which is basically the point of where I'm
heading with this thread, how do you get them to START using those
guides to solve the funding problem?
There were some rough spots but I managed to defeat Lord Recluse with a friend. My dominator was slotted with only stuff I picked up and I had 20 mil cash.
As for teaching newbies, Stalemate runs the mentor project. I also teach my VG mates and new friends about the market, show an example of frankenslotting and give a link to the forums if they have a particular build.
There's so many ways of playing the game, we just have to show them the way of ebil *ahem* the way to use the market to their advantage.
And for those who argue that the market is sooo not part of the 'super power' theme, I point out cases of many multi-millionaire villains and heroes in comic books where wealth funds their bases and/or powers.