I am enjoying my /Nin stalker, although I probly use caltrops a good deal less than other people who use the set, it is very nice in certain situations. You have a heal that can also help at times, plus the overall defense and resistances for the set are good. The only problem with it is that it requires a -KB proc or you will keep cursing yourself for taking it.
/DA is also a great set, and will be even better once i19 hits. And I haven't even hit the cloaks...
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I dunno, maybe I'm weird, but I kinda like finding time for Divine avalanche. For one it's got a neat animation that goes well with all the def "dodge" animations. For two, I dunno, I like the thrill of living or dying based on my ability to keep up its buff. This is mostly due to him relying almost exclusively on his two big hitters and the AOE for damage, and the rest being used as utility.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I love my Kat/SR scrapper to death, but were it not for dual-procing his attacks (and he is my main character/concept character) and that I love his costume, I'd probably say it's a tad boring hitting Divine Avalanche every other attack.
Granted, he's already soft-capped to melee ranged and AoE, he still uses it as a filler when foes only have a sliver of health. The most funnest stalkers I've played so far are my Spines/DA and my DM/WP. Now that I stopped trying to squeeze in caltrops in my tactics all the time, my DB/Nin is getting fun too. |
I guess the "fun" comes in to play because depending on what I'm fighting I end up having to make a bunch of really quick decisions in the chain, as firing the wrong attack at the wrong time can often be fatal. Feels pretty ninja-fied to me
Though I will say that my stalker is the most "work" to play out of any of my toons because of his build, I think that "work" Might be why he's still my only 50, and still my favorite toon to play (Though I gotta admit, my new Dual Pistols/Kinetics corruptor is a blast.)
Been gone for a while and not up to date on all the changes but I played two stalkers, a Spines/Nin and EM/Regen and EM/Regen worked best for me as far as survivability goes.
My reasoning is that EM does so much damage and also allows for a bit of control with the stuns. Also, the having fast healing and two different heals helps.
If I was caught in a bind with one npc, I'd placate and heal and strike when ready.
Just to throw in my experience here: I started leveling up a Ninja Blade/Dark Armor stalker and I am impressed with how well he survives.
It was rough until I got Divine Avalanche and Dark Regen, but now... I feel pretty unstoppable. I haven't even picked up the control auras yet.
He's level 29 right now, no Cloak of Fear and no Stamina. The only set IOs I have are the Theft of Essence proc and a KB protection. Last night I was running on a full team doing +2 missions. I was sidekicked, so I saw nothing but purple and red enemies, many times fighting +4s to me. I found that I can open with AS, which fears the enemies long enough to stack up my Divine Avalanches. If fit hits the shan, there's always Dark Regeneration.
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You must have been gone a VERY long time....but EM has undergone some bad nerfs...|
Originally Posted by Ninja_Zero
Been gone for a while and not up to date on all the changes but I played two stalkers, a Spines/Nin and EM/Regen and EM/Regen worked best for me as far as survivability goes.
My reasoning is that EM does so much damage and also allows for a bit of control with the stuns. Also, the having fast healing and two different heals helps. If I was caught in a bind with one npc, I'd placate and heal and strike when ready. |
EM isn't what it used to be, and I feel as though it may be pretty much garbage when compared to other sets in ST damage. Maybe massive IO slotting changes that? I dunno, haven't tried it yet.
My DB/DA is 30 and pretty solid. The build I have set up for him once he hits 50 is positionally softcapped, with pretty solid resistance and 1580hp. Won't be taking any alpha's, but should be damn useful on teams.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
For most durable, well, so far I sorta feel as though my DM/Nin is definitely up there for massive durability. If things get too ugly in melee, there's always Caltrops to buy me some breathing space
Oh, and when IH+DP, Shadow Meld, or MoG is up Regen feels pretty durable too lol, but only under those conditions 
I have multiple stalkers sitting at level 50 (MA/regen, NB/WP, KM/DA, elec/elec, DM/nin) plus several others in the 30-40 range. In my opinion a fully IOed elec or DA > any other secondary. This has just been my experience anyway.
The reason why is both sets offer a full array of resists (to include psionics and end drains) and decent heals in which a player can stack defense. On my elec/elec, when hide is supressed (its lesser value: 2.65%) I have 46% S/L defense, 36% melee defense and between 20-24% everything else. When I hit shadow meld, which has recharge of 30 seconds since the build is permahasten (110% global + 3 slotted hasten) all defenses -both typed and positional- are over 46%.
Combined with the knockdowns in TS and LR (which recharges in 24 seconds) there is enough mitigation to survive most encounters. The only downside to all of this awesomeness is in order to make it all work I have to run 8 toggles -without- stamina. I've had to rely on power sink up until this point to keep the build going, so as you can imagine I'm estatic over the news of i19 getting an inherent fitness pool.
All of the secondaries can be durable, but this has been the most rugged I have used. GL with whatever ya end up picking.
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So... less than a 10% drop of HP from a Scrapper, and some lower mods on the mez secondaries... that's enough to make "durable" not possible for Stalkers, but possible for Scrappers?|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Durable and stalker shouldnt be used in the same sentence. Its just not possible by the way the AT is created. You will have less hit points and in some cases inferior defensive powers compared to the other ATs with the same powerset. What you want to do is create a stalker that wont get hit much so you wont have to worry about being durable. Just create anything with ninjutsu and softcap it.
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Their resist and defense values are the same. Stalkers get hide (a small defense bonus) in place of powers that, for most sets, don't add to survivability. Sure there's some more variety than that, but there not always in the Scrapper/Brutes' favor, unless you're trying to hold aggro of course (because there's no taunt auras). However, on SOs, you'd have to maintain 7 enemies with RttC all the time to match the HP you'd get back from the same-slotted Reconstruction, if you had /WP.
I would also vote /Ninjitsu. You can softcap defense and it has a self heal, as well as some misc utilities.
For your primary, Ninja Blade (or I suppose BS) for Divine Avalanche (or Parry), OR Dark Melee. The -tohit stacks nicely with Defense, and has some more heal.
/Dark is pretty solid too, though, for the same reason it's solid on Scrappers and Brutes.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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Having played a WP Scrapper and a WP Stalker (and a WP Tanker...maybe I should make a WP Brute), YES! That 10% difference in HP makes a HUGE difference.|
Originally Posted by Gilia
So... less than a 10% drop of HP from a Scrapper, and some lower mods on the mez secondaries... that's enough to make "durable" not possible for Stalkers, but possible for Scrappers?
Their resist and defense values are the same. Stalkers get hide (a small defense bonus) in place of powers that, for most sets, don't add to survivability. Sure there's some more variety than that, but there not always in the Scrapper/Brutes' favor, unless you're trying to hold aggro of course (because there's no taunt auras). However, on SOs, you'd have to maintain 7 enemies with RttC all the time to match the HP you'd get back from the same-slotted Reconstruction, if you had /WP. I would also vote /Ninjitsu. You can softcap defense and it has a self heal, as well as some misc utilities. For your primary, Ninja Blade (or I suppose BS) for Divine Avalanche (or Parry), OR Dark Melee. The -tohit stacks nicely with Defense, and has some more heal. /Dark is pretty solid too, though, for the same reason it's solid on Scrappers and Brutes. |
Don't get me wrong, Stalker is going to be more durable than a Blaster, as the Stalker has native defenses. But I notice a big difference in survivability purely based on Hit Points.
This is versus multiple enemies and versus one single target enemy.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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It makes sense that WP would have a noticeable difference. While Reconstruction might be better than RttC in some cases, it doesn't have the -ToHit, and if your HP hit 0 before (or between) using Recon, then it didn't do any good. Also, the dependency on regen means increased hit points are worth more.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Having played a WP Scrapper and a WP Stalker (and a WP Tanker...maybe I should make a WP Brute), YES! That 10% difference in HP makes a HUGE difference.
Don't get me wrong, Stalker is going to be more durable than a Blaster, as the Stalker has native defenses. But I notice a big difference in survivability purely based on Hit Points. This is versus multiple enemies and versus one single target enemy. |
However, I doubt for most "durable Scrappers" that they finish their fights at 1/13th of their hit points very often. Also, the other secondaries are not going to have a drastic difference in survivability because they don't lean so heavily on regen. /Regen might though... of course :-P.
Now, the lack of a damage aura/taunt aura means it can be harder to keep guys together, also the lack of AoE means they might not die as fast. Not being able to manage mobs w/o that could result in face planting more often.
The difference in survivability doesn't come from a difference in defense/resists though.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
I have 3 very durable stalkers:
Most durable -- BS/Elec.......Broadsword has parry...with 1 parry up I'm softcapped to Melee and always softcapped to Ranged. Generally I'm running around with like 50% s/l resist and solid resists to non-toxic as well. This toon survives the defense debuffing in a pack of cimeroans....pretty rare for a stalker.
2nd most durable -- Spines/Dark........good balanced resists....an insanely good self-heal......I soft-capped her to s/l as well. She dies sometimes where the bs/elec doesn't because sometimes the self-heal takes a little too long to animate.
3rd most durable -- Elec/Dark.....same deal with the spines/dark except elec's animations seem longer so I die a little more often waiting before I do the self-heal.
If you want a cheaply built and very survivable stalker ninjitsu is awesome for that.....just make sure to use caltrops liberally.
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Well, assuming the same defense and resistance, the Scrapper can take more hits, before falling, due to more health.|
Originally Posted by Gilia
It makes sense that WP would have a noticeable difference. While Reconstruction might be better than RttC in some cases, it doesn't have the -ToHit, and if your HP hit 0 before (or between) using Recon, then it didn't do any good. Also, the dependency on regen means increased hit points are worth more.
However, I doubt for most "durable Scrappers" that they finish their fights at 1/13th of their hit points very often. Also, the other secondaries are not going to have a drastic difference in survivability because they don't lean so heavily on regen. /Regen might though... of course :-P. Now, the lack of a damage aura/taunt aura means it can be harder to keep guys together, also the lack of AoE means they might not die as fast. Not being able to manage mobs w/o that could result in face planting more often. The difference in survivability doesn't come from a difference in defense/resists though. |
Heals will also heal for big chunks, due to more health.
I know I feel the difference. But then I feel the difference between a Stalkers secondary, and a blasters lack of one.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Also any regen mods will count for more on the scrapper for the same reason as the heals. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Well, assuming the same defense and resistance, the Scrapper can take more hits, before falling, due to more health.
Heals will also heal for big chunks, due to more health. I know I feel the difference. But then I feel the difference between a Stalkers secondary, and a blasters lack of one. |
But in my experience, that 10% hp works out to the scrapper being able to take 2 or more hits past the point where the stalker is down. That is very significant. I'm with BrandX on this one, yes it is "only" 10% but it is very critical. Just like that last 5% between 40 and 45% defense halves your incoming damage, the 10% difference in HP between a stalker and a scrapper makes a huge difference in actual performance.
I won't go as far as Ryu and say stalkers "cant" be durable. But they are far softer than an equivalent scrapper.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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That's why I said most durable Scrappers don't finish a fight with 1/13th of their health. That's where they'd have to be... for the comparable to Stalker to drop, even though the Scrapper still stood.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Well, assuming the same defense and resistance, the Scrapper can take more hits, before falling, due to more health.
Heals will also heal for big chunks, due to more health. I know I feel the difference. But then I feel the difference between a Stalkers secondary, and a blasters lack of one. |
Teaming with both, unless the Stalker runs off a lot, you should find that the Stalker dies less because they have a lower threat modifier and no taunts.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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No, it comes from differences in hit points. You will get more mileage from resists, though. Defense functions on both AT's, but the lower health of the Stalker means that (assuming equal damage intake and equal resists), hits take off more of the character's health bar. Equal resists may equate to equal mitigation in terms of numbers, but a Stalker will feel the hits more.
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Originally Posted by Gilia
The difference in survivability doesn't come from a difference in defense/resists though.
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Actually, the discrepancy starts at 10% without any hp bonuses and then exceeds 30% if capped. So, if a capped Stalker and Scrapper were to receive the same incoming damage after mitigation, the Scrapper would still have a third of their bar when the Stalker faceplants. Of course, I would have placated and taken a moment to recover as the Stalker, but in terms of raw survivability, I'm not sure I could count that as a win or even a draw.
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Not true, the end of the fight is 100% irrelevant. What counts is if any any point the scrapper got down to 10% or lower.
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Originally Posted by Gilia
That's why I said most durable Scrappers don't finish a fight with 1/13th of their health. That's where they'd have to be... for the comparable to Stalker to drop, even though the Scrapper still stood.
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"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Quote:
That is a good point. I was boldly rounding the difference in base hitpoints at 50, which was silly. Of course it's 10%.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Not true, the end of the fight is 100% irrelevant. What counts is if any any point the scrapper got down to 10% or lower.
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Originally Posted by JustBling
Actually, the discrepancy starts at 10% without any hp bonuses and then exceeds 30% if capped. So, if a capped Stalker and Scrapper were to receive the same incoming damage after mitigation, the Scrapper would still have a third of their bar when the Stalker faceplants. Of course, I would have placated and taken a moment to recover as the Stalker, but in terms of raw survivability, I'm not sure I could count that as a win or even a draw.
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So, /Regen is even more solidly in the Scrapper's favor.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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Dull Pain is mostly wasted on a stalker. I f you have the +HP accolades the +HP component from DP goes over the cap. And that's before any +HP sets.
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Originally Posted by Gilia
That is a good point. I was boldly rounding the difference in base hitpoints at 50, which was silly. Of course it's 10%.
Also a very good point about max HP. Doesn't this mean that dull pain is not as good on a Stalker as it is a Scrapper? Not just because of the lower base HP, but because it would max out their HP unenhanced... So, /Regen is even more solidly in the Scrapper's favor. |
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
It's not difficult to HP cap a Stalker with the +HP accolades and a handful of set bonuses. At that point Dull Pain is just a big heal. Yes it makes a very large difference in the overall mitigation levels available to Regeneration Stalkers vs. Scrappers.
So in terms of survivability on large teams, which would you guys pick between WP and Nin... I was planning on doing Elec/ with either one of them if that helps... I ran the builds and they are both softcapped (Nin to positional, WP to S/L and 40 to all others), both have self heals, emergency buttons in hibernate... The biggest differences I saw were that while Nin has some bells and whistles (Caltrops, Blinding Powder) WP has actual resistances under that defense (54% to S/L with Strength of Will on backup)... On large teams wouldn't that Res be better?
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Personally, I'd go with the WP, if you're looking for more durability.|
Originally Posted by Brenodyja
So in terms of survivability on large teams, which would you guys pick between WP and Nin... I was planning on doing Elec/ with either one of them if that helps... I ran the builds and they are both softcapped (Nin to positional, WP to S/L and 40 to all others), both have self heals, emergency buttons in hibernate... The biggest differences I saw were that while Nin has some bells and whistles (Caltrops, Blinding Powder) WP has actual resistances under that defense (54% to S/L with Strength of Will on backup)... On large teams wouldn't that Res be better?
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Also, are both at the health cap?
Caltrops wouldnt make one more durable, but it may stop the attacks from coming as much. But I wouldn't call that durability.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
A well played and built Dark Armor stalker is probably as bulky as you're going to get.
DM/Nin is also way up there.