How will the Incarnate system work for the "Undesirables?"
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-10-06 11:17 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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No you're not, I don't care how good a player is there are certain challenges where even with an infinite amount of time you will fail without the right team. Like a MoSTF I would NEVER do with a Fire Tanker. I don't care how well built or how many billions of influence or how well that player can play his character there is still a huge inherent weakness compared to all of the other tanker secondaries.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
The "playerbase" that does that is consisted of idiots. No AT/powerset, AFAIC, is "undesirable." Give me a halfway competent player - or at least one willing to listen and go with the rest of the team - and we're good.
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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What's so wrong with Fire Melee Tanks?|
Originally Posted by Santorican
No you're not, I don't care how good a player is there are certain challenges where even with an infinite amount of time you will fail without the right team. Like a MoSTF I would NEVER do with a Fire Tanker. I don't care how well built or how many billions of influence or how well that player can play his character there is still a huge inherent weakness compared to all of the other tanker secondaries.
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Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
I find it funny that people are raging about how easy the game is and how *CURRENT* content is doable with all archetypes/combinations... when the question is being asked about what happens if the *FUTURE* content is extremely difficult, will the "Undesirables" be forced out of teaming?
No-one is questioning how easy the game is right now, but what is being posed is something entirely different.
Having played quite a number of MMOs, I'm very happy to see it stay casual friendly. I hate watching how specific certain builds/class needs are for doing content in other MMOs.
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Inherent weakness relative to other tankers, yes. Inability to successfully do a MoSTF, no.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
No you're not, I don't care how good a player is there are certain challenges where even with an infinite amount of time you will fail without the right team. Like a MoSTF I would NEVER do with a Fire Tanker. I don't care how well built or how many billions of influence or how well that player can play his character there is still a huge inherent weakness compared to all of the other tanker secondaries.
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When I did it on mine, we had an Emp and a bubbler (a Rad too, but they aren't much help on the tanking LR part, outside of keeping him from summoning). I used orange inspires and a few purples to get through Recluse.
You could, of course, make it easier and bring along a sonic or thermal, so the oranges are unnecessary and with a Cold you can crank up the tanker's HP so they are as tough as any other tanker.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I wouldn't prefer one, but I would not say I would never do one.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
No you're not, I don't care how good a player is there are certain challenges where even with an infinite amount of time you will fail without the right team. Like a MoSTF I would NEVER do with a Fire Tanker.
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Honestly, I buy the argument that if they truly know what they're doing, have decent support or at least a tray full of insps, they'll be fine. I've just seen it work too many times to not believe it.
Riskier than going with a tougher tank? Sure. Serious risk of failure if you know and trust the player? Not in my experience. In my experience the unknown player with the "right" build was actually a worse risk.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
My Fiery Aura Tank can do just fine on an MoSTF run. First time he ran the STF he never dropped. Other times didn't work out, but that was mostly with a lack of support: one time he didn't have any buffs cast on him, and only had a rad hanging out with him. We finished, but that last fight was a little rough and convinced me that I would need more support on an Mo run (that first time I had a good Empath boosting my defense and able to heal me when Recluse got lucky shots in... which was sometimes enough to warrant using Healing Flames as well).
I'm forgetting the exact resist and defense numbers you want when Recluse is fully buffed, but to get that high, any Tanker needs inspirations (it's about 80% defense, and 90% resist to S/L and Energy, if I remember right... I got that from some experts on the encounter). So Fiery Aura doesn't really need anything more than someone else in the same position does, and actually needs less, since it has some resists to build on.
I've heard some people say "my stoner didn't need support," but I'm not sure how that worked out, as I know how much Stone gets in Granite, and how far that can go with IOs. Even if they're at the percentages you need for Recluse, you're still going to get hit, and need to be healed. Earth's Embrace will cover some of that, of course, but I've always been hit by Recluse multiple times, even at the defense cap against him when he's buffed.
Of course, I've had some people say I've been incredibly unlucky in that respect, so who knows? 
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Depends on the stalker. My main is quite capable of taking +3 EBs solo, although I haven't bothered trying an AV yet. Many times I've stayed up after a brute/scrapper etc have gone down. |
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Stalkers are somewhat innefective against Av's compared to a brute or scrapper.
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This is why I and others are more interested in the player on a char whose capabilities they know. You don't want me Emping a MoLR. Trust me, you don't no matter how desperate you are for an Emp. I won't react quick enough and I'll die. But stick me on my main on that SF and I will (have) live(d) through it. Yes even if you get multiple AVs at the end.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
What I really, really, really hate is the Gear-treadmill...
COH should allow all rewards to be obtainable solo, but at the cost of speed... This is why I love this game, and what will keep me here for a long time. As soon as the game becomes end-game, raid-centric advancement, I may not leave right away, but the writing will be on the wall at that point. |
If I want to grind, I'll go play Witless Of Wonderland. I don't. I would love to see the option of soloing ALL the TFs and the GMs. "Why, Capa it's a MMO?" True but ..
TF:
1) I'm sick of joining TFs for xp and a member deciding they're going to speed no matter what the leader says.
Even telling people it's for xp doesn't go in. Did that the other day, one went speeding off despite being told it was for xp. She did the same on the final AV mission. She rage quit because we refused the tp to the final AV. If you don't have the patience to run a non-speed TF I don't know how you cope in the world.
Let them go solo in Oro for less merits. Get them out of my face when I'm trying to level because it ruins my gaming experience. I don't enjoy being tp'd from boss to boss like some type of useless parcel.
2) Sometimes I'd like try and solo a TF.
Even if the minimum size was set to the starting level EG x7 for Manticore. Could be a giggle and wouldn't tie up anyone else to stay in team.
GMs:
Was quite cheerfully duo'ing GMs with a friend. We'd already duo'd a Granite in PI and Adamaster and were working on Lusca. We'd killed all the tentacles and had about 20% left on the head. We didn't need or want help.
A group of people who clearly couldn't have done what the two of us did decided to 'help'. Those leeches spend 30 sec for two merits and ruined our achievement of duo'ing that guy. Yes we both know we could have handled the rest of him on our own because we'd done everything else but we didn't get the chance to say "we duo'd Lusca" thanks to the leeches.
If I was watching us I'd have offered help but respected a "no thanks" or even chucked a thowing dart to get the merits. But that group just ruined our achievement.
I should probably mention that my part of the GM duo'ing duo was my main ... a quite "undesirable" DB/WP stalker. Just sayin'.
I'm at the stage now where I am min/maxing a little more. So I'm likely to want to do some Incarnate stuff but if it is like the CoP then that pretty much rules it out for me. That TF is a gigantic pain and I can live without herding 24 cats for it. And again if I want to grind, I'll go elsewhere.
SAVE CoX info:
Titan Network efforts
Saving CoX events/FB info
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Hmm. I wonder if that toggle-less concept Invuln Tank my SG got the MoSTF badge would be considered better or worse than a Fire Tank.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
No you're not, I don't care how good a player is there are certain challenges where even with an infinite amount of time you will fail without the right team. Like a MoSTF I would NEVER do with a Fire Tanker. I don't care how well built or how many billions of influence or how well that player can play his character there is still a huge inherent weakness compared to all of the other tanker secondaries.
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Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
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And yet, I have been on multiple successful MoSTF runs where we had a Fire/Fire tank leading...
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Originally Posted by Santorican
No you're not, I don't care how good a player is there are certain challenges where even with an infinite amount of time you will fail without the right team. Like a MoSTF I would NEVER do with a Fire Tanker. I don't care how well built or how many billions of influence or how well that player can play his character there is still a huge inherent weakness compared to all of the other tanker secondaries.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
My Fiery Aura Tank can do just fine on an MoSTF run. First time he ran the STF he never dropped. Other times didn't work out, but that was mostly with a lack of support: one time he didn't have any buffs cast on him, and only had a rad hanging out with him. We finished, but that last fight was a little rough and convinced me that I would need more support on an Mo run (that first time I had a good Empath boosting my defense and able to heal me when Recluse got lucky shots in... which was sometimes enough to warrant using Healing Flames as well).
I'm forgetting the exact resist and defense numbers you want when Recluse is fully buffed, but to get that high, any Tanker needs inspirations (it's about 80% defense, and 90% resist to S/L and Energy, if I remember right... I got that from some experts on the encounter). So Fiery Aura doesn't really need anything more than someone else in the same position does, and actually needs less, since it has some resists to build on. I've heard some people say "my stoner didn't need support," but I'm not sure how that worked out, as I know how much Stone gets in Granite, and how far that can go with IOs. Even if they're at the percentages you need for Recluse, you're still going to get hit, and need to be healed. Earth's Embrace will cover some of that, of course, but I've always been hit by Recluse multiple times, even at the defense cap against him when he's buffed. Of course, I've had some people say I've been incredibly unlucky in that respect, so who knows? |
On a side note GP the new Vig -Rogue system makes for some all new Fire/Fire scares!
I just did LRSF on Scorchy my MoSTF Fire/Fire , now that was scary
we should have made it a master as there was just one silly death near the beginning ( we could have restarted ). When I jumped into the middle of all those Hero's and ate an alpha by BaB's I thought "oh crap" but thankfully I got Healing Flames off followed by a large green, then when the debuffs kicked in I was fine after.Ok back to your regularly scheduled thread
Has anyone done any of the high-end content with a Petless Mastermind superteam (for the bragging rights)?
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Not fire melee, fire armor.
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
What's so wrong with Fire Melee Tanks?
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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I thought that's what you meant, but you did say "tanker secondaries."
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Originally Posted by Santorican
Not fire melee, fire armor.
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Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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Statistically speaking if it's mathematically possible someone has done it. I would imagine a team of 8 petless MMs could handle STF/LRSF if they really wanted to. To defeat AVs you need two things, the ability to survive their attacks and the ability to damage them faster than they can heal. Take a bunch of Trappers for Defense and -regen, some Thermals or Sonics for Resistance and some Poison for more -regen and -heal (to help with Numina, GW is less of an issue since you can immobilize her and keep her at bay). It would be slow due to their poor damage output but I see no reason for it to be impossible.
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Originally Posted by Ang_Rui_Shen
Has anyone done any of the high-end content with a Petless Mastermind superteam (for the bragging rights)?
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*blank look*
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Statistically speaking if it's mathematically possible someone has done it.
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Already been covered by multiple posts. We knew what you meant. |
Originally Posted by Santorican
Not fire melee, fire armor.
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Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Just noticed this.....|
Originally Posted by Santorican
No you're not, I don't care how good a player is there are certain challenges where even with an infinite amount of time you will fail without the right team. Like a MoSTF I would NEVER do with a Fire Tanker. I don't care how well built or how many billions of influence or how well that player can play his character there is still a huge inherent weakness compared to all of the other tanker secondaries.
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And what would my huge inherent weakness be? Says the fire tank with all Masters TF's except LRSF. Says the Fire tank who saw a Elec, Dark, WP, Shield and Ice Tank die to LR and he didn't. We even had a avergae IO'd Invuln die so much we thought we would have to restart. ( We also did a MoSTF on my Fire/Fire without an Emp )
My fire has 71% resist , 40% def. 1 large orange every 60 seconds during the LR fight and I am exactly the same as an Invuln or stone. Take a Cold shielder, Bubbler or Sonic and any master TF becomes trivial, its called def/res capping. Add to that debuffs like RI and DN and I can AFK the whole fight.....
This i why I am so glad I took my tanker red side, I don't have to put up with idiot elitest pricks anymore. Red side has been doing SF's including MLRSF with less that capped brutes for years. Its called skill and using the most of your teams powersets.
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I could have worded that better. What I meant is that given the number of people who enjoy doing insane things, unless something is impossible within the limits of the powers system chances are someone has done it.
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Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
*blank look*
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That would not be a correct assumption.|
Originally Posted by tanstaafl
So the issue for you is actually about redside on your server, not ATs.
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I get team invites for my brutes and MMs all the time. The problem is getting team invites for my stalker. Dominator has some issues getting teams but not nearly as bad as my Stalker.
This is still an MMO, and I would be nice for teams to a want a stalker. Heck, there are a few other ATs that need some love too.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
For those who think "This AT/Power/Build can't do it" I scoff. I began this game with an arrow/fire, Issue 6. I had teams kick me, because they saw only the powers and not the player. I've taken that toon to 50, and he is awesome. I find a build that people go "that's weak" and I go and build it. I've built the mind/psi dom, the ninja/TA mm, the SS/EA brute, the fire/fire tank, everytime someone tells me that "that is da gimpzors" I go out and make one!
And then I proceed to make my next 50.
*goes back to his Kin/EA Brute*
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How is the assumption incorrect? You have issues getting invitations for your Stalker on your server. A number of people on other servers have no problems in getting their Stalkers invited to teams, myself included. Simply raising my "Looking for team" flag on my Kin/Elec Stalker will get me an invitation to a tip team or similar in fairly short order on Justice. |
Originally Posted by newchemicals
That would not be a correct assumption.
I get team invites for my brutes and MMs all the time. The problem is getting team invites for my stalker. Dominator has some issues getting teams but not nearly as bad as my Stalker. This is still an MMO, and I would be nice for teams to a want a stalker. Heck, there are a few other ATs that need some love too. |
Tanstaafl was not, as far as I can read his/her mind, claiming that there is no-one teaming on your server. The contention was that people refusing to team with Stalkers (or some other AT) is a problem that is likely only found on some servers. And ultimately, if you can't get invitations to a team and it's really bugging you, start one. Look through the LFT window and grab some people who are up for a mission or whatever. If no-one wants to join the Stalker-led ITF, start something else and make a few friends. Tip teams are quite popular at the moment, and could often carry at least one team member quite easily, so even if they're thinking "lolstalker", they'll still run the mission... and then be thoroughly impressed by how much damage you put out and the ways you can manipulate aggro, at which point they might think about running that ITF.
In conclusion, it seems likely that archetype discrimination is a problem found far more on some servers than others. And regardless of this, there are definitely things you can do about it.
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Done with 8 scrappers and no defeats.
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Originally Posted by Durien
The only TF I've EVER had troubles with because of team comp is STF, and that's only because melee heavy teams CAN'T kill ghost widow.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
No you're not, I don't care how good a player is there are certain challenges where even with an infinite amount of time you will fail without the right team. Like a MoSTF I would NEVER do with a Fire Tanker. I don't care how well built or how many billions of influence or how well that player can play his character there is still a huge inherent weakness compared to all of the other tanker secondaries.
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A Fire/Fire Scrapper can be made capable of doing it therefore I'd attempt it with one.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Snap!
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Originally Posted by Lord_Apollon
I find a build that people go "that's weak" and I go and build it. I've built the mind/psi dom, the ninja/TA mm, the SS/EA brute, the fire/fire tank, everytime someone tells me that "that is da gimpzors" I go out and make one!
And then I proceed to make my next 50. *goes back to his Kin/EA Brute* |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Man I wish there was a sarcasm tag.
While 'Good Player' and 'Moron' may be the end points, the scale has many points between. I dare suggest the distance one can be removed from 'Good Player' is further for, say, a BS/Regen scrapper than for a Storm/Energy Blaster or Ill/Storm Controller.