How will the Incarnate system work for the "Undesirables?"
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-10-06 11:17 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I've seen it a few times. No one said they hadn't. |
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
So you are telling me that you have never seen someone recruiting for a LRSF/STF, say asking for "Damage" and turning away stalkers?
Never? What server do you play on, I gotta take note for the next free transfer week. |
The consensus in the thread is that the people who do so are idiots, and I happen to agree with the consensus.
I've also seen people recruiting for a team that insisted they have both an Empath and Kin or they weren't budging from their spot under Atlas.
(Those people are idiots as well)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I don't even demand kins on my stone/stone brute.
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You made a mistake there. I think you meant to say "with" but accidentally typed "out of". Easy typo to make.
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Originally Posted by Gehnen
No one will argue that it actually happens. I think I've seen it once or twice on Liberty.
The issue is that people who run teams like that should be shot out of a cannon. |
Now I do sometimes have a thought in mind when recruiting for an STF but in general I just give a "4 slots available" call. More often than not people will ask what we need and I usually just say whatever you like. That usually gets a decent mix; if we're really lacking some element people will usually ask if I want them to swap to "x" character but I'll give it a go as long as the mix isn't terrible and the players know what they're doing.
If things are severely outta whack I'll swap to whatever we lack myself; I have nearly anything that may be needed at 50. Usually I end up drafted to bring a tanker though. I guess people know me as a tank, not a controller or blaster or scrapper or defender or... 
I may have started playing tankers but I actually play nearly every AT.
The majority of people looking to run the STF tend to be competent and play well. Of course you'd think that most anyone would pick up at least the basics of their character by the time they reach 50. If the team's competent and everyone does their job it's fairly easy.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Back on topic, but Incarnates if even close to what's been leaked (Damn you devs for leaving the EvilGeko out of super-secret beta, I can keep my mouth shut....well sometimes! ) then there will not be any undesirables anymore.
Everyone will be able to fulfill multiple roles.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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You're all being too kind. Those people should be consigned to group with people who want to group with people like that. I can hardly think of a worse (or more appropriate) fate. Nothing involving a cannon can compare.|
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
You made a mistake there. I think you meant to say "with" but accidentally typed "out of". Easy typo to make.
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Trust me, Test Rat. Just because you're denied a slot in those teams doesn't mean they're good. In this case, the forbidden fruit happens to be disgusting. And rotten. And poisonous.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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And sour? |
Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
You're all being too kind. Those people should be consigned to group with people who want to group with people like that. I can hardly think of a worse (or more appropriate) fate. Nothing involving a cannon can compare.
Trust me, Test Rat. Just because you're denied a slot in those teams doesn't mean they're good. In this case, the forbidden fruit happens to be disgusting. And rotten. And poisonous. |
I'll admit that I don't team a huge amount, but I'd agree that good teams know that no archetype or power set is essential - some will make certain things harder or easier, but any TF can be completed by a team of 8 with any AT/powerset combination. Eight stone tanks in Granite might have a hard time - but perhaps a few of them will need to drop out of Granite to give a bit more burst damage. Eight "pure" Empaths will have a hard time killing anything - but "pure" empaths are a pretty terrible build anyway, and between stacking Fortitudes to turn some of the team into soft-capped Blasters, eight Recovery Auras making endurance a non-issue, and everyone trading off Adrenaline Boosts, an Empathy superteam can be a force to be reckoned with. And eight Stalkers can surgically remove all the serious threats from a mob before the fight even starts, so while thye may not be the fastest team to clear the spawn, they do so in astounding safety for an all-melee team.
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Unfortunately, my experience on more populated servers when getting picked up at random is "everyone runs in separately and either wins or dies". There is no "team" in such a mass of *I*. It's just a bunch of Leeroys who expect you to be another one with a defense-capped, IO'ed-to-the-gills toon.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Test_Rat,
On Pinnacle I see less of "need healer and tank for blahblahblah" than I do "Running X, room for two more, don't care what you bring." Maybe the drunks are smarter than those running around on the larger pop servers... |
Even when hit over the nose with the problem (like an errant puppy), they continue with the "zerg and keep up or just lay there" approach.
Now not EVERY team I've been on has been this way. I've run into some HELLACIOUSLY fine PUGs, and most of those people are on my global friends list now.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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They will be gathered together in Assessment and Modification Facilities to be analyzed, and depending on the results of their assessment either be modified for a more useful position in society, or terminated and recycled. All hail Cole!
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
How will the Incarnate system work for the "Undesirables?"
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
If the content gets harder (appreciably harder) then there are simply some combinations of powersets within some archetypes that are going to be less desirable. A lot of people seem to be shouting "har har look at how good we are, we can do it with 5 stalkers", but many people can't because they may be casual and don't have 5,000,000,000 inf in their character, or just aren't so great. Plus... what you can do now may not be what you can do in the future when it does actually get more difficult.
Every MMO that I've played I have seen it in. People want set combinations because certain encounters are trivialised by having the right powers. Hopefully COX doesn't go that way but history has shown otherwise - when the difficulty goes up, people learn quickly what works and what doesn't.
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Amen. |
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Gearscore is why I quit and will never return to WoW.
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Although I left much earlier, I saw the writing on the wall before Burning Crusade launched.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Sucky AT should play on euro servers where you just group anything whatever level, gear or AT and are happy because you actually found 7 players willing to stay online for more than 10 minutes. And if you ever achieve to win an event you wouldnt have solo anyways (like you have more than 2 other ppl randomly casting buffs on you or facerolling damage powers) you can call it a great session.
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After being away from WoW for over a year, I read a reviewer talking about his experience with a (at the time) end level raid, where he was being critiqued severely for not having the highest DPS gear on his character, as they did not think he would be able to contribute enough to the team. Such gear was earned through the raid, so I'm not quite sure how he was supposed to have it all coming in (and he had the best stuff he could have gotten elsewhere).|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Amen.
Although I left much earlier, I saw the writing on the wall before Burning Crusade launched. |
Such common attitudes in that game are why I have avoided it like the plague for years. It's not casual friendly at all, and while that story is not typical of all people playing WoW (it obviously wasn't typical for me), I saw it far too much. Blech. That's why I hate that attitude here if I ever see it crop up, and why I counteract it whenever I form my own teams.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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No billion inf builds here. Most of the people I team with regularly don't have them - they might do so to *a* character for the heck of it. Checking on most pugs, there aren't long lists of set bonuses. |
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
If the content gets harder (appreciably harder) then there are simply some combinations of powersets within some archetypes that are going to be less desirable. A lot of people seem to be shouting "har har look at how good we are, we can do it with 5 stalkers", but many people can't because they may be casual and don't have 5,000,000,000 inf in their character, or just aren't so great. Plus... what you can do now may not be what you can do in the future when it does actually get more difficult.
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So, no, there's not going to be anything "less desirable" except to those anal few who MUST have powerset XYZ or "the game is RUINED!" Everyone else will team with whoever's available and go on having fun.
Thus the earlier statement, those people who find powerset/AT whatever "undesirable" are idiots.
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Exactly ! Well Said|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
After being away from WoW for over a year, I read a reviewer talking about his experience with a (at the time) end level raid, where he was being critiqued severely for not having the highest DPS gear on his character, as they did not think he would be able to contribute enough to the team. Such gear was earned through the raid, so I'm not quite sure how he was supposed to have it all coming in (and he had the best stuff he could have gotten elsewhere).
Such common attitudes in that game are why I have avoided it like the plague for years. It's not casual friendly at all, and while that story is not typical of all people playing WoW (it obviously wasn't typical for me), I saw it far too much. Blech. That's why I hate that attitude here if I ever see it crop up, and why I counteract it whenever I form my own teams. |
I personally like the idea of Team-oriented (even Team-required) content. What I really, really, really hate is the Gear-treadmill, and as you pointed out, the fact that you have to "politic" your way into raid-centric groups to have better gear or simply live without.
COH should allow all rewards to be obtainable solo, but at the cost of speed. Teams and Team-centric SGs should get everything easier/faster, while casual or heaven-forbid, solo oriented players take longer to achieve the same level of performance.
This is why I love this game, and what will keep me here for a long time. As soon as the game becomes end-game, raid-centric advancement, I may not leave right away, but the writing will be on the wall at that point.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I was DMing a Warcraft d20 group when WoW came out. I had read all the Warcraft books. I was sold before I knew anything about the game. In the first three months I saw the disparity between casual and hardcore gamers, and the community had little opposition to it. I knew it would only grow and I jumped ship before it got really bad. I came sulking back here, of course.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
After being away from WoW for over a year, I read a reviewer talking about his experience with a (at the time) end level raid, where he was being critiqued severely for not having the highest DPS gear on his character, as they did not think he would be able to contribute enough to the team. Such gear was earned through the raid, so I'm not quite sure how he was supposed to have it all coming in (and he had the best stuff he could have gotten elsewhere).
Such common attitudes in that game are why I have avoided it like the plague for years. It's not casual friendly at all, and while that story is not typical of all people playing WoW (it obviously wasn't typical for me), I saw it far too much. Blech. That's why I hate that attitude here if I ever see it crop up, and why I counteract it whenever I form my own teams. |
The only thing I will typically call out for TFs is Kheldians. They need more love. I think they are horrendously underrrated for TFs, especially Peacebringers. Because their inherent will help them fit in no matter what the remaining 6 are, even more so if they are triform. The versatility is invaluable.
Frankly I can let it go if the leader/organizer of a TF is pushing for a powerset or an AT, but if most of the team is doing it: ie "we won't start till we get a kin." I'll go do something else.
Mostly irrelevant side note: I've been threatened to be kicked from a TF because I wasn't buff botting everyone on my /Thermal controller. No one was dying or anything, I was buffing everyone who had any share of the aggro and keeping the squishes from getting mezzed, etc. It wasn't even the leader of the team. Somehow this "you have to play one way to do this or get out" attitude has seeped into the community. It needs to be removed. BY FORCE!
...Maybe not by force.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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If the Incarnate system works the way it did during the I18 beta, anyone can get the Alpha slot. The devs are unlikely to put a huge roadblock in the way. It may require doing an arc, or spending some merits, or making some investment in time. But they will almost certainly make sure everyone will be able to become Incarnate solo. The salvage required for crafting alpha slot powers dropped doing normal level 50 missions and required nothing special.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Just curious how the incarnate system will work for the ATs and the powerset combos that the playerbase shuns.
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However, my guess is that they will have new and difficult content that will grant you the required salvage at an accelerated rate, the same way A-merits are a faster track to get rare stuff than reward merits, and doing TFs/SFs gives you reward merits faster than regular/Ouroboros arcs.
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The other thing about this is that you should join an SG that does such content on a regular basis, and not depend on the whims of pickup groups. The dialog usually goes along these lines:|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
If the Undesirables have great difficulty to get on these teams now, will have a harder time completing thier Incarnate slotting since they will be forced to use the solo grind methods, isn't it just a feedback loop where they fall farther and farther behind?
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PB: "I want to bring my PB."
Team leader: "Well, we need more debuffs. Can you bring your rad instead? We'll run the TF again next week. I'll bring my rad and you can bring your PB."
Even when I get unsolicited invitations to join a TF and the team is missing a particular useful character type (usually debuffs), I'll volunteer to switch to a more needed character. Most of the time the team leader decides it isn't necessary after all, we go as is, and slaughter everything in sight.
I play so many alts I don't really have any vested interest in a particular character. I have several ongoing projects, but I'm happy to switch to a favorite level 50 character if it's needed for a certain TF. That's the mindset among long-term players, because if you stick with one character you're going to get bored and quit the game.
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And that is exactly the way I am hoping it goes down (and continues on into the future).|
Originally Posted by Rodion
If the Incarnate system works the way it did during the I18 beta, anyone can get the Alpha slot. The devs are unlikely to put a huge roadblock in the way. It may require doing an arc, or spending some merits, or making some investment in time. But they will almost certainly make sure everyone will be able to become Incarnate solo. The salvage required for crafting alpha slot powers dropped doing normal level 50 missions and required nothing special.
However, my guess is that they will have new and difficult content that will grant you the required salvage at an accelerated rate, the same way A-merits are a faster track to get rare stuff than reward merits, and doing TFs/SFs gives you reward merits faster than regular/Ouroboros arcs. |
I have no problem with 24/7 gamers, or speed TF runners getting their characters "tricked out" weeks, months, maybe even years ahead of me. But don't make it a non-option of; join a "raiding" crew or live off lower level performance.
If there are those here that do not know how it works in other MMOs, it would be something like this; imagine your character only able to slot SOs, while all the Hard-core Raiders had not only IOs, but purples and soon the upcoming Incarnate powers/slots. And the ONLY way to get IO recipes and salvage was to run the STF/ITF etc,. And to top it all off, only ONE recipe would drop at the end of the task force and there were all kinds of complicated rules for who was allowed to claim it.
NO THANKS !
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Well now, that depends on what you're known for, doesn't it? |
Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
If you're known on a server then you shouldn't have a problem getting a team.
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Seriously, people can put a "player note" on anyone, and later on eyeball it before deciding to bring the player onto a team. You (the generic "you, not any particular poster) can't see the player notes over your own head, but that could explain why people seem to be avoiding you.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Test Rat, I invite you to give Victory a try. I run PUG Abandoned Sewer Trials. While there's times that a few power combos might be better suited, generally success comes down to player competence.
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I'd say content design is where a lot of the problems lie. Some combinations are good at things that aren't common in this game. For example, protecting things is where heavy knockback and phasing powers would shine. However, there's only so many of those kinds of missions.
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Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
If the content gets harder (appreciably harder) then there are simply some combinations of powersets within some archetypes that are going to be less desirable.
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I play on Infinity. |
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
So you are telling me that you have never seen someone recruiting for a LRSF/STF, say asking for "Damage" and turning away stalkers?
Never? What server do you play on, I gotta take note for the next free transfer week. |
Most of the folks I play with have a single mantra: "Play what you want."
As for the actual OP:
We don't have much data on the Incarnate system. The limited info that we know about the Alpha slot is that it was a 'global IO slot."
Namely, whatever you slotted in Alpha buffed all your powers that used that attribute, with a small portion of that buff bypassing ED.
In my mind, this would benefit low-effort toons more than heavily built toons, which has the effect of 'leveling out' the power scale: An Alpha Incarnated toon on SO's is not longer so far behind a purpled build with the same Incarnation.
It's still behind, mind you: It's just quite a lot closer.
There's a few cases I can see where someone is justified in wanting specific power combos, though these are largely far from normal play Such as when I duoed the ITF, I decided that, since I couldn't stand up to auto-hit AoEs on a /SR Scrapper, I needed a complementary toon to support him. Hence, I wanted a Sonic, Thermal, or Empath (I don't think Pain Dom was around yet). Got an Empath Defender and we were quite successful. Had I grabbed, say, a Blaster, I'm not sure it would have worked.
But, outside of corner cases like that, I generally just invite whoever. Sometimes I may mention I'd prefer a certain type of character, usually buffs/debuffs, but I won't turn anyone away. Sure, I might ask the Stalker that wants to join if he has a buff/debuff toon he wouldn't mind using, but if he wants to use the Stalker still, he gets to use the Stalker.
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Not never... but not always either. I play on Virtue and I've done every SF on my Stalker many times over. That doesn't mean I've never been turned down or that I wouldn't have had an easier time getting on teams with a Brute or Corruptor. That's all very true, but also pretty irrelevant if all you're worried about is being able to do the incarnate requirements at all.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
So you are telling me that you have never seen someone recruiting for a LRSF/STF, say asking for "Damage" and turning away stalkers?
Never? What server do you play on, I gotta take note for the next free transfer week. |
No AT is so undesirable that they can't get on teams pretty regularly. As easily as the most popular ATs? No, probably not. But what does that matter?
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I intend to find out.
My Incarnate candidate is a Gravity/Empathy Controller, not a powerhouse build by any means, either solo or teamed.
But it will be interesting to see how far I can push her.
Purpling her out and getting all the accolade powers was pretty cool, I see the incarnate system as an extension of that process.