Why do I never see fly on builds?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2010-09-29 02:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I like Fly and Hover. That's the only reason I need to take them. They do have advantages though. Flight can get you to any place the other powers can get you, and often easier and with less effort. Hover, not being suppressed by holds and mezzes, gives great defensive capabilities in that it accepts IOs, doesn't drift, and lets you keep away from hard-hitting melee enemies. It's very much a plus for characters with ranged attacks, especially blasters who can continue to attack while mezzed. Yeah I can get CJ for my blasters, but then I spend as much time jumping around trying to keep out of melee range as I do fighting. With Hover, I just park myself above enemies and start blasting.
But the main reason I take them is I like them.
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i have maybe two frequently played characters with Hasten. Oddly enough the rest do just fine without it. Especially the 50s with lots of IO sets. |
Originally Posted by Dz131
because hasten is too good. its basically a must have skill on every build, so why waste and another skill to get fly when you can get SS
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i'd say at least half of my 40+ alts have some form of flight. Hover on the great majority of them, and couple with just Fly.
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I'm another person who only occasionally gets hasten (usually if the character super speeds...)
My favorite travel power is super jump. If I can't think of anything for travel power, I'll just default to it. But fly is the one I use the next most often, and then super speed a bit behind that. Teleport is WAY down behind those, just because you can't idly teleport around while not paying attention. When bored or waiting for someone, I always randomly run/jump/fly around. 
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Fly is awesome and fun. Here is the problem however. If you ever think you may want to PvP, even for a second, then it is the worst travel power. It is also the slowest one, even with the changes. Better to spend the $10 and get ninja run at lvl 4. Lots of temp fly powers in game, and you can even buy jetpacks.
Hasten to open up SS, and CJ to open up SJ. Both very useful powers there and many take hasten anyway. SS is probably a bit more common as celerity+stealth IO gives full invisibility (big plus there). Hover has its uses, and can be an ok power for the right build. I think TP is much rarer, but if you computer has no lag issues, it is the fastest mover in the game, and you can escape in PvP if you are passing through and someone tries to gank you (Not for fighting). I see some stone tanks use Teleport, and that is almost it outside of noobs, and the 5 of those people who love it.
Fly needs to be sped up and use less endurance to be useful IMHO, but it is still a cool power. No better way to see the zone. Get a jet pack and see the zone if you must though.
The main thing for me when it comes to hover vs. CJ is my ability to position myself in a fight, hover is a liability by comparison to CJ in terms of cones in particular. It seems the angle you have to attack isn't always going to max your damage potential.
Not that I don't like hover, it's just when I want to get from here to there in a fight CJ is where it's at.
Edit: Positioning can make the difference between victory and defeat. I've seen many people that stand their ground and get buried there!
@MARTy McFly
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That's only because you were busy "positioning" yourself behind them~
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Originally Posted by Bubblerella
Edit: Positioning can make the difference between victory and defeat. I've seen many people that stand their ground and get buried there! |
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Fly is faster.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Why take Fly and spend a power slot when you can buy jetpacks for a pittance?
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Fly doesn't clip with wings/capes.
Fly/Hover never suddenly run out in the middle of the LGTF when your killing mitos...
Hover isn't affected by movement suppression like Jet/Raptor Packs are.
Fly/Hover can be used on Master of Task/Strike Forces.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
People who didn't invest in Fly really shouldn't get all the advantages of people who did.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Temp power equivalents to Super Speed and Super Jump that are as cheap and easy to obtain as jetpacks don't really exist. All the flight temp powers still trivialize Fly and that's really lame.
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http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Inherent_Powers#Jump_Pack
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Ninja_Run#Ninja_Run
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Still, it'd be nice if Fly had a "super sonic boost" effect done with teleportation like Shield Charge or Lightning Rod.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Or at least if they gave Fly a secondary effect that didn't come with temp power flight.
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1) Speed.
2) Ability to slot IO sets.
3) See the top of the post for more.
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People aren't taking flight temps for speed. They're taking them either for brief vertical movement or to position themselves stationary in the air. There is no advantage in Fly for that. The endurance drain difference is negligible.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Fly is faster.
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| Fly doesn't clip with wings/capes. |
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| Fly/Hover never suddenly run out in the middle of the LGTF when your killing mitos... |
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| Hover isn't affected by movement suppression like Jet/Raptor Packs are. |
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| Fly/Hover can be used on Master of Task/Strike Forces. |
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http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Inherent_Powers#Jump_Pack http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Ninja_Run#Ninja_Run |
There are like a half dozen ways to get flight temps, one of which literally involves you logging out and doing nothing.
Ninja Run =/= Super Speed
Ninja Run < Super Speed
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| 2) Ability to slot IO sets. |
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I don't think that's the problem, at least with Fly.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
IIRC, the main reason they're adamant about not upping the flyspeed cap is technical. The engine simply can't load and unload assets fast enough and if you're high up, you'll really notice it. I don't think it's even a function of your system speed, the bottleneck is in the engine.
Still, it'd be nice if Fly had a "super sonic boost" effect done with teleportation like Shield Charge or Lightning Rod. Or at least if they gave Fly a secondary effect that didn't come with temp power flight. . |
Super Speed moves that fast after all.
I think it has to do with putting a limitation on Fly, because it offers a vertical movement, while Super Speed is for the most part horizontal.
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Reason is simple.
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If a Super Speed pack with its inherent stealth was purchaseable for 10000 guess how popular Super Speed would be?
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
...bunch of stuff...
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Luckily my post will be read by people who don't selectively ignore reality the way that you do.
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For the little vertical movement you ever do in this game, flight temp powers suffice.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I don't think that's the problem, at least with Fly.
Super Speed moves that fast after all. I think it has to do with putting a limitation on Fly, because it offers a vertical movement, while Super Speed is for the most part horizontal. |
Seriously, if the speeds of the travels were fairly balanced against each other, you wouldn't see a skew towards any specific travel in either PvE or PvE. They'd all be roughly equal in popularity.
I'd say you definately do see a skew away from Fly in PvP, not as much as Teleport now, mind you. 90% of players in PvP I've seen are SS, SJ (or both) with flight temps. It's called 'lolFly' for a reason.
In PvE, I'm inclined to believe that most people just go for concept anyways, regardless of the numbers. In other words, The people who take Fly don't take it because of its advantages, but take it inspite of its flaws. Further, I think even if Fly's horizontal speed was the same as Super Speed's, you would still see a lot of Super Speeders in PvE regardless.
The people who pick for concept will pick the travel that fits their concept no matter how it performs. The min/maxers will pick the "best" performer no matter which travel it is. In that light, it seems silly to me to balance the travels like they have, or to claim they're balanced when there seems to be two that have been judged as clear 'losers'(or at least lacking in performance).
The question I ask you is this: If a power is outclassed by its peers, yet is popular despite that fact, does that mean the devs should do something? History says they usually do, because there's been a number of powers and powersets that were far from being unpopular, yet had flaws/issues and got buffed.
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Even if they increased the flight speed of Fly, I would more than likely still take SS or SJ. Just for the utility of hasten, or combat jumping. Air sup is nice enough I guess, Hover is okay, but I wouldn't trade Hasten or CJ for both of the pre-flight powers.
I'll tell you, it is going to be even harder to pry me away from either set one i19 hits with inherent fitness considering neither really need any slots to keep me happy.
The only build I have Fly on is my Fire/Rad Corr which has softcapped ranged defense and I use for soloing GM's and such. Other than that, I can get anywhere with SS + CJ + Hurdle besides hovering in the air in the middle of nowhere.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
I take fly on quite a few characters. Of course, I don't min/max my characters. I only have one character that has more than 2 sets in it.
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It's somewhat late in the game for veteran bonuses, but it's nice that you can get Combat Jumping and Fly if you wish, once you can pick a travel power automatically at level six. This gets even better once I19 hits and we have inherent Fitness, as you're getting another pool power pick if you want it. |
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Even if they increased the flight speed of Fly, I would more than likely still take SS or SJ. Just for the utility of hasten, or combat jumping. Air sup is nice enough I guess, Hover is okay, but I wouldn't trade Hasten or CJ for both of the pre-flight powers.
I'll tell you, it is going to be even harder to pry me away from either set one i19 hits with inherent fitness considering neither really need any slots to keep me happy. |
I'm entirely thematic with my travel power picks, so if someone is a flyer, they're a flyer. It's not that much slower and maneuvers well, and concept means a lot more to me.
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Ive got lots of characters with fly..
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Absolutely. I guess I am biased, my first few toons had to stay close to the ground for some of their powers to work(Fire tank, Stone tank and an Ice 'troller) Over the years I have just grown so accustomed to using ss and sj, even teleport, that fly never occurs to me.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
It's somewhat late in the game for veteran bonuses, but it's nice that you can get Combat Jumping and Fly if you wish, once you can pick a travel power automatically at level six. This gets even better once I19 hits and we have inherent Fitness, as you're getting another pool power pick if you want it.
I'm entirely thematic with my travel power picks, so if someone is a flyer, they're a flyer. It's not that much slower and maneuvers well, and concept means a lot more to me. |
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Don't forget slot starved tri-form Peacebringers who, staying out of melee, had a few throwaway picks. That doesn't make it anymore useful, but that's the only reason any of my characters have it.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Nobody's going to take Group Flight unless they've got an especially team-focused build, like an all-primary Defender, or maybe a Mastermind who wants to keep his/her minions close but still be able to fly around. It's slower than regular flight, and is almost always less useful than Flight + TP Friend... but there are still people out there who want to take it for concept reasons.
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Originally Posted by PuceNonagon
I'm not sure this is true. I know they are increasing the amount that Flying gets boosted by Swift and it will be faster at lower levels, but the flight speed cap is unchanged.
I think. |
It's not quite doubled, but it maxes out with a single IO now because...
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Originally Posted by Issue 18 Patch Notes
To reduce the travel times involved in larger zones, we've made a couple QOL changes to some movement powers:
* Increased base Flight Speeds by 50% |
It's already been said a few times, but to reiterate it's largely because there's mostly farming, pvp, and post-50 min/maxed for speed/high difficulty task forces. I would imagine that Fly is still the most popular travel power, as it was ages ago when it seemed like most of the forum community hated it for being expensive End wise and the slowest travel power.
I never thought about travel powers much until I realized on some of my teleporters I was using Raptor Packs just because I got sick of shift+clicking or not being able to type while traveling around. With the aforementioned changes in i19 and the City Traveler vet badge, I'm pretty sure the handful of teleporters I still have will be respeced to pick up Fly (besides the poor Warshade :-/). They mostly only have TP now because I wanted Recall on them and used up my 4 power pool picks.
On the other hand, one of my RL friends who virtually never consults or posts on the forums takes Fly on every single character. She just likes it that much more than the other travel powers and isn't a min/max, PvP, farming, etc etc.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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Base is different from Cap
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Originally Posted by Gilia
There may be some confusion here, because you said speed cap and the person responded to did not.
It's not quite doubled, but it maxes out with a single IO now because... http://www.cityofheroes.com/news/pat...patch_not.html |
Most people I know use fly.
You just don't play with people who use fly I gues.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Yes, thank you. The tangent started with the speed of flight, and that's why I referenced the base speed. I should have been more clear.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Base is different from Cap
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@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Unfortunately, cool requires effort. I try not to hope for cool things like that in this game anymore.
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