I still think if the problem is the stacking debuffs, then make the nukes act like the Mystic Fortune power. It is still a useful tool, it just cannot stack. That way the tool is still available, but the perceived exploit is not.
Liberty Server (@enderbean)
Arcs on Live
#1460 Hometown Rivalry
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If you want people to do something, you motivate them with either a good reward, or excellent enjoyment. IMO, this trial provides neither mechanical reward proportional to its required effort (mostly the "cat herding") nor sufficient intrinsic enjoyment to provide motivation without a better mechanical reward.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
If the merits aren't worth doing the trial for, find a different reason to do it. If you can't, don't run it. Content doesn't have to be for everyone.
Frankly, saying reward/=time spent, and only talking about merits is getting real old. This trial takes time and effort. Making the reward bigger doesn't change the fact that you have to develop strategies and practice. If it can't be done successfully every time you run it, I say great. It's about time there's something to do that doesn't have an easy button. |
Telling people "don't play it if you don't like it" is dumb, because the problems with this trial seem likely to mean that most people will not play it very long after its creation. We don't want the devs to create content people don't like to (re)play.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Agreed.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
If you want people to do something, you motivate them with either a good reward, or excellent enjoyment. IMO, this provides neither mechanical reward proportional to its effort not intrinsic enjoyment sufficient to provide motivation without a better mechanical reward.
Telling people "don't play it if you don't like it" is dumb, because the problems with this trial seem likely to mean that most people will not play it very long after its creation. We don't want the devs to create content people don't like to (re)play. |
Cough: Eden Trial.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I'm based on Defiant (that's EU for all you NA players out there) and I've been in five CoP raids so far, four of which used nukes and only one of which yielded success. Now that the nukes are disallowed I've lost all hope of getting the badges on my main villain.
It's very hard to get 24 people to join in on the raid and then to coordinate them using only what CoX makes available for communication and then battling an AV that cheats and heals faster than anything else I've ever seen.
I'm glad you guys are able to run several raids on the same night but before doing a change like this to borked content, I think the borked content should first be fixed and then be nerfed. Heck, make it so that it can only be run once every 20 hrs if the merits awarded are such a big concern.
Of course if the AV thing was fixed there would be no need for Nukes.
Either way, I feel like it was a poor patch up job for a poor implementation from the start.
Rabbits & Hares:Blue (Mind/Emp Controller)Maroon (Rad/Thermal Corruptor)and one of each AT all at 50
MA Arcs: Apples of Contention - 3184; Zen & Relaxation - 35392; Tears of Leviathan - 121733 | All posts are rated "R" for "R-r-rrrrr, baby!"|Now, and this is very important... do you want a hug? COH Faces @Blue Rabbit
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Here is the thread that the run was posted in. (This wasn't the first or only time we've taken down the Storm AV without nukes/Shivans/HVAS, it's just the only run I've managed to get a screen shot of just before he was defeated). We used the same strategy posted in my guide while using the team template I have outlined in it. As for support toons, sets (from what I recall) were quite diverse, including Emp, Cold, Rad, Dark, Thermal, Storm, Force Field, etc. So definitely not heavy on "Dark/Rad/Kin" specifically. I think we had one Dark and one Kin in the entire group, from that specific trio of sets.|
Originally Posted by Sandolphan
This is the kind of statement that begs for further info. My assumption is that you won against the storm AV quickly and without temps because you had at least a 50% ratio of support, heavy on kin/rad/darks, and all of the players were heavily purpled/setted builds from the more extreme players available. These are the factors that would go furthest toward success against the stormer that has given everyone else so much grief, and that vary most from a general PUG attempt that is soundly employing the basic strategy yet fails.
To be specific:
I know I'm asking a lot here, but to simply make a statement of "we won" and leave it at that doesn't really contribute much to the discussion. Likewise, anyone simply saying "well, we lost". Details, insights, observations, facts and numbers please!  |
The teams were made of SG/coalition mates, and random people from one of Champion's main global chat channels (I'd say about half and half). It is impossible for me to quantify how heavily IO'd people were, or verify all the builds for set bonuses. Some people I'd never teamed with before. Several informed me upon joining that they had not done the CoP before.
Leader of Renaissance de la Veritas
Moderator of ChampioNexus
Amygdala's Guide to the Cathedral of Pain Trial
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I wasn't clear, for which I apologize. I wasn't trying to defend the low reward by saying I didn't think this qualified as "end-game" content. I was just using your mention of end-game content as a springboard to mention that I don't really see what's so end-gamey about it. I don't know, I guess needing large-scale coordination has an epic feel about it, but somehow this feels like all the "epicness" is front-loaded into the planning stage and not in the actual execution.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Uber, from what I've been reading in various threads many DO see it as akin to endgame content. Which is why I thought it should reward as such. Merits and temp power aren't a good enough reason to deal with "herding cats."
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Just to rub it in!
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
. If you can't throw all that together, you deserve to fail. Like my Pirates in MLB for the past 18 seasons.
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The Kronos has a hold n00b!
The trial definitely needs more flavor to it. Its own dedicated AV would be a great help. Since the lore states that Chularn the Slave Lord runs the factory cubes, why not him?
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
So first the Devs tell the players that they must have the Fitness power pool on all of their characters whether they want them or not. Now they ban certain Temp Powers from the CoP Trial. I sure miss the days where I, the player, had the ability to make the choice of what powers my characters could have and where and when I could use them.
Nothing says "fun" like having your freedom of choice taken away from you.
Founder/Leader of the JUSTICE F0RCE
http://JusticeForce.guildportal.com
Nothing like a forced glass half empty outlook.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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... but the former part GAVE us more options about power choices since, all things considered, Fitness picks are bland, uninteresting, boring, but NEEDED for MAJORITY OF BUILDS, which in effect, forced those of us that wanted to focus more on damage, recharge, control, etc. etc. to pick them.
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Originally Posted by Acroyear2
So first the Devs tell the players that they must have the Fitness power pool on all of their characters whether they want them or not. Now they ban certain Temp Powers from the CoP Trial. I sure miss the days where I, the player, had the ability to make the choice of what powers my characters could have and where and when I could use them.
Nothing says "fun" like having your freedom of choice taken away from you. |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Pinnacle ran a half-pug cop red side with the non-storm AV the night i18 was released, no nukes/shivans in about 12:40. Not really sure why they are banning the nukes, as all it does is make it tougher for the casual/solo players.
About half of the trial members were in vent. We basically had three sg members as the three team leaders, with everyone just following their team leaders and we all went into it blind, as none of us had ran it on test. We got the general idea of what to do second hand and just went in there with a good mix of AT's that we would normally run a high end TF with. As with Hami raids, the COP isn't necessarily hard, it's just an exercise in having people work together and be on the same page. I almost wished we would have failed it, as when it was over, it was a bit anti-climactic to the point that there hasn't been much interest to run another one after the first few runs, which again hurts the casual/solo players because that's less trials they can get in on.
Leader of the NITES of DARKNESS VG
Join my fan club today!
Quote:
There really isn't that much involved with tactics, though it requires a bit more than normal gameplay. Almost certain this one is pretty common.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
If the merits aren't worth doing the trial for, find a different reason to do it. If you can't, don't run it. Content doesn't have to be for everyone.
Frankly, saying reward/=time spent, and only talking about merits is getting real old. This trial takes time and effort. Making the reward bigger doesn't change the fact that you have to develop strategies and practice. If it can't be done successfully every time you run it, I say great. It's about time there's something to do that doesn't have an easy button. |
Before you can enter the Cathedral
-Each team attacks it's designated spawn
-Each team then defeats all three towers within a appropriate amount of time (doesn't have to be simultaneous destruction)
Entering the Cathedral (no more than 3 Tankers should be on this Trial)
-Each team is assigned to one of the Rurlaruu Cubes
-The Tankers stay at their assigned Cubes and watch for respawns (which is about 45 seconds IIRC)
-Pound on Rularuu till respawns, then each team goes back to their assigned Cube and assists their Tank that's holding the spawn aggro.
Repeat points 2 and 3 till he goes squish
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I was on a team of 24 people that tried it twice with no luck! We were all on Ventrillo, was very coordinated and planned ahead. When we hit Lunaruu, we just couldnt take him down before his shield went up...|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Having said that, there are some demonstrated errors in the trial. Most notably the difficulty of dealing damage to the Lanaruu Aspect, and the Aspect's regeneration rate in general. While I don't agree with cherry picking which temporary powers can be used in the trial, I'm honestly not too upset that people aren't allowed to use the nukes for this task. The problem, on the other hand, is that even groups who know what they're doing and have good coordination are still unable to complete it. The overall encounter is very enjoyable, but the Aspect just won't go down. Decreasing its Regeneration, or maybe just switching Arch-villain out with the Reichsman class wholesale (think Lord Winter) would go a long way to addressing the issues players are facing in Cathedral of Pain. |
I say double his HP but take out his regen altogether. This would make him tougher, but not unsurmountable, since he wouldnt return to full health while being bubbled.
"You wear a mask to hide who you are, I wear a mask to show who I am"
Arc ID 91456: The Zombie Apocalypse Task Force:poster 1, poster 2
CLICK THE ABOVE LINK TO HELP DO YOUR PART TO SAVE C.O.H!!!!!
Quote:
Wow. You have singlehandedly confirmed in one post all the things my heart has been telling me about the inherent darkness obfuscated vision humans possess. I am thoroughly depressed, thanks.
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Originally Posted by Acroyear2
So first the Devs tell the players that they must have the Fitness power pool on all of their characters whether they want them or not. Now they ban certain Temp Powers from the CoP Trial. I sure miss the days where I, the player, had the ability to make the choice of what powers my characters could have and where and when I could use them.
Nothing says "fun" like having your freedom of choice taken away from you. |
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vanden
Nothing like a forced glass half empty outlook.
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quoting George Carlin...some say the glass is half empty, some say its half full...i say the glass is to frakkin big.
210 50s and still counting!
Can one of the devs PLEASE just tell us their reason for this change already?
All this speculation is only hurting your already spotty reputation for effective game fixes.
This is of course assuming that you have a good reason, but the longer you stay silent the more I'll think you just enjoy messing with us.
@Catalystics of the great and honorable Justice server.
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What a good idea, fix stuff that is already in game. Wow what a concept... Ya I like that idea. The concept of fixing stuff that is broken instead of only exploits. Helping to serve the whole of CoX instead of just a very small amount. Wow these are all great concepts.... |
Originally Posted by Castle
At this point, there is nothing we can do without a massive redesign of that Task Force.
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Broomhilda BS/Regen/BM Scrapper, Fiddle Faddle Shield/ElecM/BM Tank,
And many others..
Dev's With all the Great new content, Please!! dont forget to fix the bugs with the old content. There is a storm a brewing because they are not getting fixed. If its a problem that no one is reporting them? Well Maybe you need to look at your tech support then..
Quote:
I suspect that your temporary sarcasm overload disabled your ability to tell the difference between "fixing stuff" and "redesigning an entire task force." The former has been attempted three times and improved the performance on that map. The latter - well, I doubt that Castle uses the word "massive" to mean, "really easy and gosh we should get right on that because it won't take any time at all". Especially when it's an issue that, for people even on systems like mine that pre-date the game, still doesn't make the ITF unplayable.|
Originally Posted by Broomhilda
What a good idea, fix stuff that is already in game. Wow what a concept... Ya I like that idea. The concept of fixing stuff that is broken instead of only exploits. Helping to serve the whole of CoX instead of just a very small amount. Wow these are all great concepts....
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I'm going to have to run the CoP one of these nights.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
Quote:
I think one of the reason is that Shadow Shard is an Alternate Dimension. Second reason is, the Devs are looking into the bugs and finally fixing/fixed it. Pre-fixed or not CoP is very easy, probably too easy :P
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Originally Posted by Nieromaru
Can one of the devs PLEASE just tell us their reason for this change already?
All this speculation is only hurting your already spotty reputation for effective game fixes. This is of course assuming that you have a good reason, but the longer you stay silent the more I'll think you just enjoy messing with us. |
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Originally Posted by Antoinette
I think one of the reason is that Shadow Shard is an Alternate Dimension. Second reason is, the Devs are looking into the bugs and finally fixing/fixed it. Pre-fixed or not CoP is very easy, probably too easy :P
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LOLpfft.
they have had about 4 years to debug,tweak,fixt,patch so this is all very disapointing as far as the CoP concernd.
And again as the op im aware its very easy on a server like Freedom. However on slower servers they are not.
On freedom they are done multiple times per night. On slow servers they are done once a week and they still have trouble. The warburg nukes made it easier but its still not "easy" on small servers.
Why that is? team make up, which toons people are playing, whos got what as a badge toon all these things come into play. who knows maybe its somthing i have not thought of.
But i think the devs really put the hurt on smaller servers by not getting this right.
I am also not sure if people are aware how small the pop is on some "dead" servers. I have already stopped making new toons on one cause i ran out of room and its pointless to continue there except to see freinds and tf with them.(having 20 toons on that server also makes it so i really have all i need there). And SOOOoooo many people already left before me i was the only one left in an sg ranked in the top 10.
It seems these days that the developers are very afraid that someone, somewhere MIGHT make a merit or two off of a difficult team task. Influence? OH HELL NO IT MUST NOT HAPPEN! What-the-hell-ever.
This is just me: if they want to make more content that sits there mostly unused [Reischmann TF, I am looking at you], have at it. This strikes me as a MASSIVE waste of developer resources.
I almost never run Reischmann due to it being a PITA with few rewards. And how often do you see "forming Reischmann, send tell to Superdude for invite" as opposed to "ITF forming, send tell to Superdude for invite"? I can tell you that on my server it is probably a 100:1 ratio in favor of ITF.
In order to keep a relative few from "abusing" a task for rewards, they will make it so unpalatable as to be not worth the time for everyone else. WAY NOT TO GO.
What about FUN, as opposed to everyone becoming so frustrated with the undoable-ness of a task that the team ends up dissolving? PLainly I am missing something that makes option 2 infinitely preferable to the developers. What is it!?
*shrug* Barracuda SF withstanding...Dr. Kahn TF can be sped through about as fast as a ITF.
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Actully my "sarcasm overload" would be from being in the game for almost 7 years and watching how they do some stuff very half @__. My "sarcasm overload" comes from being in Beta sence CoV launce and watching them not lissen to the players and putting out product with huge exploits/bug in them and blaming the player base for using them. Thats what the difference is. What I am saying is "if that is what it takes to fix things, then do it. Sorry thats what it would take to do it right, but thats the job...
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
I suspect that your temporary sarcasm overload disabled your ability to tell the difference between "fixing stuff" and "redesigning an entire task force." The former has been attempted three times and improved the performance on that map. The latter - well, I doubt that Castle uses the word "massive" to mean, "really easy and gosh we should get right on that because it won't take any time at all". Especially when it's an issue that, for people even on systems like mine that pre-date the game, still doesn't make the ITF unplayable.
I'm going to have to run the CoP one of these nights. |
Broomhilda BS/Regen/BM Scrapper, Fiddle Faddle Shield/ElecM/BM Tank,
And many others..
Dev's With all the Great new content, Please!! dont forget to fix the bugs with the old content. There is a storm a brewing because they are not getting fixed. If its a problem that no one is reporting them? Well Maybe you need to look at your tech support then..
To be specific:
I know I'm asking a lot here, but to simply make a statement of "we won" and leave it at that doesn't really contribute much to the discussion. Likewise, anyone simply saying "well, we lost".
Details, insights, observations, facts and numbers please!
"When heroes fail, the Angels will save you."
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