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Originally Posted by Amygdala
Regarding the use of Ventrilo, it is not necessary, but helpful. I have had several people join CoPs I've lead that couldn't use Vent, and I simply typed things out for them. I generally advise people to at least listen in on Vent if possible, because once the trial is explained, coordinating people after that is as simple as "Buff up"......"Ok, attack"......
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
The game needs better multi team tools so that we don't have to go OUTSIDE the game to find them.
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But even though it can be usuful I'm still firmly in the camp that this game should never dabble with creating a voice chat feature embedded directly in the game. I think it's fairly easy for the people who want to use it to set up their own third party voice chat servers using Vent and the like. I don't really want our Devs to waste any time trying to work in a clone of that capability here, especially as long as there's still a significant percentage of the playerbase who would never use it or would never WANT to use it.
Viable solutions for VoIP for this game exist already. Use them if you want, but please let's stop collectively suggesting the Devs waste time "reinventing the wheel" for this here. I'm for the Devs developing other tools that make the current in-game chat system work better. Those improvements would ultimately benefit everyone, not just the voice chat advocates.
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Potential lag and increased discrimination towards non-voice players have been popular arguments against embedded voice chat. I'm happy leaving it as a third party option, allowing our devs to work on other things.
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Hmmm, I'd argue for a game where many many players still run comps that can't use Ultra mode and can't run VOIP tools at the same time as the game that better better multi-team tools is a little more important than you make it out to be.|
Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord
While better multi-team tools would be nice, I don't concur that they would be as useful as Ventrilo or another outside VoIP tool. The quickest method of communication is still vocal, and the other MMOGs that have introduced their own VoIP solutions have done so rather poorly, to the point that their players still mostly use Ventrilo. It may be best if Paragon Studios does not repeat the mistakes made by other MMOG developers and waste resources on developing a VoIP solution, when there are already better and more suitable tools for the job available elsewhere.
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But I don't disagree, PS shouldn't waste it's time on VOIP development.
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to clarify again: I said better multi-team tools, not VOIP. The devs can SURELY develop better multi team tools that have NOTHING to do with VOIP. Other mmos have managed it.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Yeah the debate about VoIP for this game has been surfacing for years. It's not really surprising that this CoP trial has provided yet another example of where it can be useful.
But even though it can be usuful I'm still firmly in the camp that this game should never dabble with creating a voice chat feature embedded directly in the game. I think it's fairly easy for the people who want to use it to set up their own third party voice chat servers using Vent and the like. I don't really want our Devs to waste any time trying to work in a clone of that capability here, especially as long as there's still a significant percentage of the playerbase who would never use it or would never WANT to use it. Viable solutions for VoIP for this game exist already. Use them if you want, but please let's stop collectively suggesting the Devs waste time "reinventing the wheel" for this here. I'm for the Devs developing other tools that make the current in-game chat system work better. Those improvements would ultimately benefit everyone, not just the voice chat advocates. |
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I've only been on one CoP run so far and it was against the purple guy. We were unsuccesful despite having quite a bit of -regen, Shivans and nukes. I guess you can make it without the nukes, but I'd still like to see the purple guy toned down to a level where just about any team can do it without nukes.
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The problem with this is that on the less popular servers outside of US peak, you don't get the team you want. I play on Victory and Justice, and while I've been in game (and I normally play 8-10 hours most days, a bit less atm as I'm coming up to exams), I haven't seen ANY "w00t we finished the CoP" messages and I'm in quite a few of the global channels where those messages might turn up. I'm in the UK, so I log off before US peak in the evening. |
Originally Posted by Amygdala
Lots of different ATs/power sets can be useful on this trial. So it's less a question about which ones are appropriate and more a question of how the teams are assembled (i.e. are they balanced). Generally, you want a good strong mix of buffs, debuffs and damage.
If you check out the guide in my sig, there is a section where I've tried to break down teams further to show what a happy balance is and how team balance relates to parts of the strategy.  Regarding the use of Ventrilo, it is not necessary, but helpful. I have had several people join CoPs I've lead that couldn't use Vent, and I simply typed things out for them. I generally advise people to at least listen in on Vent if possible, because once the trial is explained, coordinating people after that is as simple as "Buff up"......"Ok, attack"...... |
The one attempt I made foundered on the purple aspect, we had 3 full teams of 50s but insufficient buff/debuff. Also I don't like tasks that make certain power sets completely useless. Try playing an energy aura toon on it, no fun, might have had a chance if we had some inspirations dropping.
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Sorry you have missed out on successful CoP runs. I have read of successful runs on Justice and Victory, so it is my impression that they have been happening. The times may not be convenient for you due to the time zone difference, but it is understandable that content requiring multiple teams of people would be forming up at peak hours.|
Originally Posted by Minotaur
The problem with this is that on the less popular servers outside of US peak, you don't get the team you want. I play on Victory and Justice, and while I've been in game (and I normally play 8-10 hours most days, a bit less atm as I'm coming up to exams), I haven't seen ANY "w00t we finished the CoP" messages and I'm in quite a few of the global channels where those messages might turn up. I'm in the UK, so I log off before US peak in the evening.
The one attempt I made foundered on the purple aspect, we had 3 full teams of 50s but insufficient buff/debuff. Also I don't like tasks that make certain power sets completely useless. Try playing an energy aura toon on it, no fun, might have had a chance if we had some inspirations dropping. |
We have been running them on Champion, mostly impromptu and PuG for a while, and have been successful at both AVs without the use of nukes. So if the first one you attended did not work out, don't let it sour you on the entire trial. Things get better as more people gain experience with it.
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Amygdala's Guide to the Cathedral of Pain Trial
The Cathedral run *should* be giving 21 Merits for first completion. Internal testing results in that value. I'm having this investigated.
The AV should not be able to attack through the force field, but pets he summons (snow storms, etc) can continue to attack once he is protected.
The problem is any thing that makes a positive effect to players(too easy or exploitable) will be fixed before any bugs that effect players negatively. A perfect example is the Lag on the Moutain with a the Generals on ITF, it has been there since the begining, and they have done nothing about it.
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Incorrect. We've made three passes on that to alleviate the lag. While server side lag is still significant in that location, it is an order of magnitude better than it was at launch. At this point, there is nothing we can do without a massive redesign of that Task Force.
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Originally Posted by Blood_Beret
The problem is any thing that makes a positive effect to players(too easy or exploitable) will be fixed before any bugs that effect players negatively. A perfect example is the Lag on the Moutain with a the Generals on ITF, it has been there since the begining, and they have done nothing about it.
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Am I right in presuming it's a combination of draw distance complexity and the sheer overwhelming number of computer-controlled entities in the area which causes the lag?|
Originally Posted by Castle
Incorrect. We've made three passes on that to alleviate the lag. While server side lag is still significant in that location, it is an order of magnitude better than it was at launch. At this point, there is nothing we can do without a massive redesign of that Task Force.
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-Rachel-
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Cimeroran's have some of the most CPU intensive powers that mobs in the game have access to. Combine that with the sheer number of them, and the AI Scripts they and their allies are following and you end up with multiple n squared issues all hitting the servers simultaneously. It's just plain ugly.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Am I right in presuming it's a combination of draw distance complexity and the sheer overwhelming number of computer-controlled entities in the area which causes the lag?
-Rachel- |
Anyway, no more threadjacking...back to the COP.
For what it's worth, I like the Cathedral of Pain and I think it's good for something to be challenging.
If you slap some half-strung PuG of 24 people together (some of whom generally wander around Pocket D uninvited asking for spots in case someone doesn't show up) and end up failing, I wouldn't automatically point the finger at the trial itself.
Having said that, there are some demonstrated errors in the trial. Most notably the difficulty of dealing damage to the Lanaruu Aspect, and the Aspect's regeneration rate in general.
While I don't agree with cherry picking which temporary powers can be used in the trial, I'm honestly not too upset that people aren't allowed to use the nukes for this task. The problem, on the other hand, is that even groups who know what they're doing and have good coordination are still unable to complete it.
The overall encounter is very enjoyable, but the Aspect just won't go down. Decreasing its Regeneration, or maybe just switching Arch-villain out with the Reichsman class wholesale (think Lord Winter) would go a long way to addressing the issues players are facing in Cathedral of Pain.
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I don't think that really helps the rewards for the trial since it still isn't worth doing after the first attempt, rather many people will do it once for the badge/experience and there is little incentive to run it again. even if it is 21 merits for the first run, 10 merits after for the amount of work put into it is laughable. Now of course this is what happens when rewards are based on time (which is i assume why the merits were set so low in the first place) but there should be something else rewarded to make the trial worth doing. maybe an HO reward or a buff to the temp powers rewarded. (or you could bring back base raids and IoP, but thats an entirely different can of pvp worms so who am i kidding with this one). I'm hesitant to bring up the difficulty and how to change it because i really like how there has finally been something added that is hard to do but at the very least, there has to be some reason to do it. |
Originally Posted by Castle
The Cathedral run *should* be giving 21 Merits for first completion. Internal testing results in that value. I'm having this investigated.
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just my thoughts on the trial
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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The problem is not getting 24 people (we've run many rikti mothership raids out of hours), but you need 24 with the right mix of ATs (or at least a critical mass of some of them), and that is asking too much at that sort of time. Of the 24 people who did the one I did, (and some had done it before, so we did have a handle on the tactics) about 16 said that the trial was not worth doing again until it was changed. I found it no fun at all at any point, and we did an OK but not brilliant job of the first phase. Would it really be too much to ask to drop insps off mobs so we don't have to exit the zone to res and can for short periods pop some purples,oranges and greens to avoid being 2 shotted all the time.
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Originally Posted by Amygdala
Sorry you have missed out on successful CoP runs. I have read of successful runs on Justice and Victory, so it is my impression that they have been happening. The times may not be convenient for you due to the time zone difference, but it is understandable that content requiring multiple teams of people would be forming up at peak hours.
We have been running them on Champion, mostly impromptu and PuG for a while, and have been successful at both AVs without the use of nukes. So if the first one you attended did not work out, don't let it sour you on the entire trial. Things get better as more people gain experience with it. |
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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I'd agree that the standard metric the Devs use to determine the Merit reward value of a TF/SF/Trial probably doesn't fit here because of the uniqueness of needing more players involved than the standard "8 person team" model. Seems you pretty much need 24 people (with fairly specific builds) to do this trial reliably, and the relative difficulty of rounding up 24 people to get this going should be factored in.
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Originally Posted by PC_guy
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just my thoughts on the trial |
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Oh, the AV is very much attacking while Protected.
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Originally Posted by Castle
The AV should not be able to attack through the force field, but pets he summons (snow storms, etc) can continue to attack once he is protected.
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It doesn't have any special "end-game feel" for me. It feels like a TF run on settings I play the game at normally that happens to have a variation on the Winter Lord in it.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
One of my issues with the CoP is that it feels like its endgame content but doesn't reward like it.
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Despite having some nice new technical features in it, such as the coordination needed for the pillars (complete with display GUI) and of course the ability to get multiple teams into an instanced zone, I consider the Trial to be very weak in terms of "content". The fact that the Aspect is essentially nothing but a large sack of HP who requires an epic beatdown is at the core of why Warburg nukes are an issue. If the encounter completion required something more complex than epic DPS interrupted by a phase timer, Warburg nukes probably wouldn't even be that useful.
Compare what we have to do in the CoP with the old Sewer Trial, where damage buffs or summoned pets can't even help you defeat the end boss.
Edit: IMO, even 21 merits isn't worth cat herding the 24 odd players needed for this. This is exacerbated by the fact that the encounter itself is just a DPS-fest - if it was really engaging that might help counter the cat herding aspect.
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I am at a total loss as to how it is that this can't be reproduced internally. He consistently attacks while protected. He always has.|
Originally Posted by Castle
The AV should not be able to attack through the force field, but pets he summons (snow storms, etc) can continue to attack once he is protected.
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Unless you changed something related to that this patch (which isn't in the notes), I expect he still will.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
If the merits aren't worth doing the trial for, find a different reason to do it. If you can't, don't run it. Content doesn't have to be for everyone.
Frankly, saying reward/=time spent, and only talking about merits is getting real old.
This trial takes time and effort. Making the reward bigger doesn't change the fact that you have to develop strategies and practice. If it can't be done successfully every time you run it, I say great. It's about time there's something to do that doesn't have an easy button.
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Reward is the greatest motivator for developing strategies. The better reward, the greater motivation to try to develop viable strategies to get that reward. Make this reward too small and you will end up with only few most dedicated players who would attempt to run it. |
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
If the merits aren't worth doing the trial for, find a different reason to do it. If you can't, don't run it. Content doesn't have to be for everyone.
Frankly, saying reward/=time spent, and only talking about merits is getting real old. This trial takes time and effort. Making the reward bigger doesn't change the fact that you have to develop strategies and practice. If it can't be done successfully every time you run it, I say great. It's about time there's something to do that doesn't have an easy button. |
Players have developed successful strategies for hami raids because reward was worth to get it back then as it is worth now.
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well yea but a task that requires you to have 24 people to run is much harder to do when the only incentive to accomplish such a a task is for the sheer challenge of it. make the reward bigger doesn't change the difficulty but it makes it more enticing for people to run making it easier to find willing bodies which for some people, is the hardest part of the trial. |
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
If the merits aren't worth doing the trial for, find a different reason to do it. If you can't, don't run it. Content doesn't have to be for everyone.
Frankly, saying reward/=time spent, and only talking about merits is getting real old. This trial takes time and effort. Making the reward bigger doesn't change the fact that you have to develop strategies and practice. If it can't be done successfully every time you run it, I say great. It's about time there's something to do that doesn't have an easy button. |
people will do it once for the badge, merits and to say they've done it and then probably wont do it again because it has little replay value due to not having a decent reward.
I don't think anyone wants the trial to be easier or less difficult or have an easy button, personally i think its about time they implemented something hard atleast in terms of everything else in game and even if it is a watered down a pointless version of its form self.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
If the merits aren't worth doing the trial for, find a different reason to do it. If you can't, don't run it. Content doesn't have to be for everyone.
Frankly, saying reward/=time spent, and only talking about merits is getting real old. This trial takes time and effort. Making the reward bigger doesn't change the fact that you have to develop strategies and practice. If it can't be done successfully every time you run it, I say great. It's about time there's something to do that doesn't have an easy button. |
risk vs reward...you know the same bs that gets trotted out when xp gets nerfed. An entire trial that guts the idea of risk vs reward. You may not care about reward, but others do.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
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Except that it CAN be done reliably each time once the bugs are fixed.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
If the merits aren't worth doing the trial for, find a different reason to do it. If you can't, don't run it. Content doesn't have to be for everyone.
Frankly, saying reward/=time spent, and only talking about merits is getting real old. This trial takes time and effort. Making the reward bigger doesn't change the fact that you have to develop strategies and practice. If it can't be done successfully every time you run it, I say great. It's about time there's something to do that doesn't have an easy button. |
That's not the issue.
Also you notice I didn't mention merits when I said it isn't worth doing. I'm looking for something that PERMANENTLY improves my character, cause the CoP just reads like the perfect place to add something like that.
Uber, from what I've been reading in various threads many DO see it as akin to endgame content. Which is why I thought it should reward as such. Merits and temp power aren't a good enough reason to deal with "herding cats."
But the poster above me hit the nail on the head: not all content is for everyone. Just like base raids, pvp, rp, etc.
I can live with that.
However I'd just like content that the devs worked hard on to be done by the most number of people.
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