So those obsolete ATs
By
Amy_Amp,
Posted on: 2010-09-27 16:29 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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And that's the point. SOMEone is going to find X fun and continue doing it, regardless of the opinions of others.
| But sometimes, real tanking is fun. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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Yes, Bill, but your claws/sr scrapper would probably de-throne Satan if he was in game, simply by de-facto badassness |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Is this where I mention all the tanks that have faceplanted while my claws/sr scrapper lived to wipe out the spawns in question?
I could, but it would have as little meaning as your post. Just like the "my tank and my partner's defender can duo that GM." So? I've got a cor and a dom that can duo the same GM. In the end, all of these statements are completely useless beyond showing that no AT is obsolete as long as people continue playing them. Including stalkers. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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My strategy is 'invite the first five defenders, corruptors, and controllers I see LFT, then give the last two spots to blasters or something. It's not like it matters at that point.'
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Originally Posted by Candlestick
This is typically what I see most people do. Its usually just, invite the first 5 people that respond, and if you don't already have support by that time, use the last 2 spots of support.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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Hi, my name is Dechs,* and I am an aggroholic. I enjoy tanking. I enjoy standing amidst a large group of seemingly unbeatable foes, knowing that I will persevere.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
And that's the point. SOMEone is going to find X fun and continue doing it, regardless of the opinions of others.
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*Pronounced "Dex." Notably not short for Dexter.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Same here. Too bad the aggro cap is at 17. If it was more, I might feel like I might actually need to be on my tank.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Hi, my name is Dechs,* and I am an aggroholic. I enjoy tanking. I enjoy standing amidst a large group of seemingly unbeatable foes, knowing that I will persevere.
*Pronounced "Dex." Notably not short for Dexter. |
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You just need bigger things to hold the aggro of. Go with +4s or try DE monsters. I can do six comfortably. Haven't tried more, they seem to start to wander off too easily.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Same here. Too bad the aggro cap is at 17. If it was more, I might feel like I might actually need to be on my tank.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Stalkers are as loved as ever they were.
(Actually, I had a good stalker on a TF last week. It took me a while to realize it, because the annoying enemies were just not... there.)
As far as the tank/brute thing, it's more dramatic. I know, Dz131, you admitted wrong, but I always like pointing out the resist-cap effect.
Let's say you have an INV tank and an INV brute, and nobody on the team is buffing S/L resist. (Not unheard of.) The tank, going with "push your strengths", has 90% S/L resist. The brute has 3/4 of this- let's make it a little more, because you can get to 90% S/L without finishing up slotting one of your powers on a tank- let's make it 78%.
Both get hit by a pair of 1000-point melee Lethal damage shots. Tank swipers or something. The brute takes 220 points from each of those, totalling 440. That's going to leave a visible mark.
The tank takes 100 points from each of those, totalling... 200.
The Brute CAN reach the resist softcap, but the Tank lives there.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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I would like to see the Tanker aggro cap raised to 21. It wouldn't be so much more I think we'd see herding coming back in a big way, but it would allow for more stacking of Gauntlet with the other Taunt effects.|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Same here. Too bad the aggro cap is at 17. If it was more, I might feel like I might actually need to be on my tank.
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I will say in regards to the topic that the addition of Bruising, lowering of the Brute damage cap, and change to Fury were intended to help alleviate concerns about ATs becoming obsolete, at least IMHO. I would even say that going back as far as the Stalker and Dominator changes, the intent was to balance them not just against other villain ATs but the heroes as well.
It is certain that these tweaks will continue. It is also certain that people will continue to insist their favorite (or perhaps, least favorite) AT has become obsolete, and insist that it needs fixes. (Or that they will never feel then need to invite them)
Also:
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And out of Masterminds, all of them are obsolete except Demon Summoning. Go look in Wentworth's, you'll see. |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
List of obsolete ATs:
Blaster Brute Controller Corruptor Defender Dominator Scrapper Tanker Stalker Peacebringer |
(And yes, I noticed the list was of everything but Masterminds, Warshades and SoA. I have to agree, especially on Warshades.
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Oh I'm sure they're out there, and it just may be what I've been searching for to cause me to see it that, as I have been doing a lot of lvl 40/45+ TFs as of late (this includes all the Shadow Shard TFs)
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Personally I haven't noticed much of a drop in Tankers really. Any PuG team I've joined since GR tends to have one or two on it still. Even last night a Hero Tips mish I joined (until the electrics in my house tripped) had two of them.
Not many Khelds around though, unsurprisingly. May have to pencil one in for my next alt (must... stop... rolling... alts...) |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Well of course, all those who refused to play redside, can now try out the redside ATs |
Originally Posted by firespray
The only trend I've noticed when playing new characters in praetoria is that there are more villains than heroes. This is exactly what I had expected to see. What will be interesting though, is long-term trends.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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It seems obvious that people who really wanted to play some villain ATs but who did not want to play that game, would get the opportunity they had been longing for once I18 came out.|
Originally Posted by firespray
The only trend I've noticed when playing new characters in praetoria is that there are more villains than heroes. This is exactly what I had expected to see. What will be interesting though, is long-term trends.
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I agree it would be interesting to see the long-term trend, but I don't know if the devs will ever release that info. It would be kind of a cool thing to have them tell us the population state of the ATs around February.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It seems obvious that people who really wanted to play some villain ATs but who did not want to play that game, would get the opportunity they had been longing for once I18 came out.
I agree it would be interesting to see the long-term trend, but I don't know if the devs will ever release that info. It would be kind of a cool thing to have them tell us the population state of the ATs around February. |
That's a great observation. From some other reading, it looks like more experimentation is going on for traditionally red ATs to start out gold.
I wonder what that means for early red side. Some where I read a player would start blue for "blue" toons or gold for "red" toons. Would Mercy and PO get deserted? IME, I practically spent no time in them. It was easy to get up to lvl5/6 in Mercy, jump to PO, run some papers/mayhem (sprinkle street sweeps in both) and be at lvl10 and off to CAD and beyond.
-I've not seen any Defenders red side since GR's launch.
-I've seen a few Defenders in Nova Praetoria, less in Imperial City. I've seen none in Neutropolis.
-I've seen quite a few Corruptors everywhere.
-Of all the people trying Kin Melee, I can count the number of KM Tankers I've seen at any level since Loyalty Beta started until now on 1/2 a hand. Being a new set, one expects higher than usual numbers of people rolling KM.
-Of all the melee AT's coming into Talos after 'graduating' from Praetoria, Brutes and Scrapper are the overwhelming majority, with Brutes edging out Scrappers for the lead.
-I've not rolled any new Tankers myself since GR went Live, nor do I have any desire to. I compare it to buying an RC Spitfire model kit that's missing half of the wing parts. Knowing the end product will be incomplete destroys any joy in putting together what is there. You can call it a plane, but is it really without two wings?
Alternatively, one could buy a helicopter instead. It will be harder to put together, harder to get in the air, but it will fly and it has all the parts in the box.
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I found Mercy and Port Oakes to be surprisingly populated when I fiddled around in them on my new Stalker late last week. Not really packed, but I still had to go around other groups street-sweeping mobs.
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
That's a great observation. From some other reading, it looks like more experimentation is going on for traditionally red ATs to start out gold.
I wonder what that means for early red side. Some where I read a player would start blue for "blue" toons or gold for "red" toons. Would Mercy and PO get deserted? IME, I practically spent no time in them. It was easy to get up to lvl5/6 in Mercy, jump to PO, run some papers/mayhem (sprinkle street sweeps in both) and be at lvl10 and off to CAD and beyond. |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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That's because it wasn't a plane (or a helicopter or whatever this metaphor is comparing brutes/scrappers to), it's a locomotive. Sure it only moves in one direction, but let's see your puny helicopter try to stop it.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
-I've not rolled any new Tankers myself since GR went Live, nor do I have any desire to. I compare it to buying an RC Spitfire model kit that's missing half of the wing parts. Knowing the end product will be incomplete destroys any joy in putting together what is there. You can call it a plane, but is it really without two wings?
Alternatively, one could buy a helicopter instead. It will be harder to put together, harder to get in the air, but it will fly and it has all the parts in the box.. |
Okay this is just a metaphor I can't keep up with. I agree with you to some extent (I think). Tanker Tuesday on Champion has meant for a long time that there were a ton of Scranks... Tankers built with damage in mind moreso than tanking or even survivability. When they came out the other 6 days of the week I would get annoyed because I felt like often times there was a half built character (or 2 or 3) on my team. I never kicked them or anything. The worst that could happen is the difficulty gets turned down a notch.
The flip side is with minimal IOing on something like +3/x6, I get BORED playing my WP Tanker. For giggles, I took the Presence AoE Taunt, on top of legacy Taunt and RttC. I am easily at my aggro cap the vast majority of the time and they just can't kill me.
Tankers can tank. They can do it ridiculously well. Brutes/Scrappers are better for soloing, and probably even better for small groups.
In my mind it comes down to the fact that much of the forum community (more so I believe than the players at large) rate powersets, builds, and ATs in general against a steamrolling high difficulty almost-farming style of play. In that mindset all you have to do is survive: you don't need any more mitigation than that. So if with mild support a Brute will hold any aggro that's not locked down, then he's better suited for the job than a Tanker, because mitigation has been met and he's killing stuff faster.
As Dechs pointed out though, his Tanker can tank DE Monsters. That's one circumstance where I'd take a comprable player/built Tanker to a Brute. The game has many other circumstances and venues that do not match the "steam roll" standard. In many of them, Tankers are far more useful than a Brute. People bash Tankers, Defenders, Blasters, and Stalkers based on these varying circumstances, but 1 Tanker, 1 Defender, and 2 Blasters can steam roll on their own.
I too have personal experiences and stories where the "obsolete" out performed the popular. A lot of that comes down to... well, popularity. If TONS of people are playing Scrappers and Brutes then TONS of people who don't IO well, are fairly new, etc etc, are playing those ATs... while maybe a higher proportion of min maxing mega-IOing players are picking up the Defender mantle.
Anyway, that was probably enough as it was. I just wanted to chime in because almost all my favorite forum people already have and I am a follower.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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Air power usually devastates any rail system, what with trains needing tracks and tracks being unable to dodge bombs and Hellfire missiles and such.|
Originally Posted by Gilia
That's because it wasn't a plane (or a helicopter or whatever this metaphor is comparing brutes/scrappers to), it's a locomotive. Sure it only moves in one direction, but let's see your puny helicopter try to stop it.
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| In my mind it comes down to the fact that much of the forum community (more so I believe than the players at large) rate powersets, builds, and ATs in general against a steamrolling high difficulty almost-farming style of play. In that mindset all you have to do is survive: you don't need any more mitigation than that. So if with mild support a Brute will hold any aggro that's not locked down, then he's better suited for the job than a Tanker, because mitigation has been met and he's killing stuff faster. |
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| As Dechs pointed out though, his Tanker can tank DE Monsters. That's one circumstance where I'd take a comprable player/built Tanker to a Brute. |
For that matter, if one wants to just stand next to a DE Monster and not die, just roll a Stalker with Hide.
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I think the metaphor is crying now.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Air power usually devastates any rail system, what with trains needing tracks and tracks being unable to dodge bombs and Hellfire missiles and such.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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actually, thats very true, and answers to the core dynamics of this game. This is greatly enhanced further by Going Rogue and with the intermingling of the heroes and villains.|
Originally Posted by Krogoth
Repeat After Me
No AT has ever been needed for anything in this game. |
What ive seen, for the short time i got back in, is some team leaders picking up villains over heroes, since villains are inherently more offensive and less defensive than heroes, as how the powerset primaries and secondaries dictate. Since alot of advanced characters have established defenses for themselves, they can get away with lesser of a defensive scheme as a team overall and get away with it, as long as there's a key support player. Just like a Brute should turn out to be an excellent tanker w/ a shield/cold buff on him from defender/corruptor.
Stand alone, ive seen brutes faceplant out kind of easy in real tough situations, but ive also seen some top players w/ seriously IO'd brutes stand strong in situations where even an average tank would drop. And maybe teams will be picking corruptors over defenders to squeeze in more offense and still get the defender buffs/debuffs, in secondary form. After some time, devs may do some slight adjustments if things get too off-balanced in AT selecting.
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I have to agree with this. Defenders have the lowest numbers in Praetoria from the searches I have done.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
-I've not seen any Defenders red side since GR's launch.
-I've seen a few Defenders in Nova Praetoria, less in Imperial City. I've seen none in Neutropolis. -I've seen quite a few Corruptors everywhere. -Of all the people trying Kin Melee, I can count the number of KM Tankers I've seen at any level since Loyalty Beta started until now on 1/2 a hand. Being a new set, one expects higher than usual numbers of people rolling KM. -Of all the melee AT's coming into Talos after 'graduating' from Praetoria, Brutes and Scrapper are the overwhelming majority, with Brutes edging out Scrappers for the lead. -I've not rolled any new Tankers myself since GR went Live, nor do I have any desire to. I compare it to buying an RC Spitfire model kit that's missing half of the wing parts. Knowing the end product will be incomplete destroys any joy in putting together what is there. You can call it a plane, but is it really without two wings? . |
My guess on the larger number of villain ATs is from blueside players who refused/hated to play redside.
Part of the problem I have with Praetoria is that its not as "team" friendly as PC and RI. The single player only missions and poorly scaling content being the problems. Too many ambushes and not enough endurance. There is also lots of energy attacks at levels where energy defense/res isn't always available and stamina isn't there to allow melee types to keep the toggles up.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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It's an obtuse metaphor. Give it up.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Air power usually devastates any rail system, what with trains needing tracks and tracks being unable to dodge bombs and Hellfire missiles and such.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I disagree. What it comes down to (again with a vehicle metaphor) is that the devs handed us a box labled "M1A1 Abrams" and inside was found a M113 because they couldn't tell the difference and didn't care.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
So? He can't scratch a DE Monster.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
If there's a team present, why not have a Brute tanking that Monster with the team's support?
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
What circimstances will you be fighting DE Monsters anyways? A Hami raid? There's so many buffs and debuffs flying that "tanking" isn't really needed.
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I've also jumped head first into the Rikti Bowl during a mothership raid before the rest of the raid was ready to head into the bowl. I kept the attention of one GM and the rest of the aggro cap of level 54 Rikti while everyone else planted two more bombs. I'd love to see any brute accomplish that without support.
Again, can I defeat any of this stuff I'm able to tank? Not yet.
Does it still make me feel super? You bet it does.
Can any other AT do these things? Not that I've seen.
When the incarnate system hits, it's going to grant a ton of offense (at least, that's what it seems like). Considering that, the ones to benefit most will be the ones who can already survive the most.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Given the new powersets, likely new concepts, doms and brutes maybe more common since GR. When it comes to obsolescence, I'd say Stalkers as being the closest atm.
Assassination has too long an interrupt time in PvE and returning to hide just don't happen quick enough. Pretty much resort to scrapping in teams as they steam through things. Occassionaly I might get AS off, it's often interrupted by mobs moving, mobs dying or I get detected. I reckon if you could lock a target, move with it and still fire it off it'll work out.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I haven't seen that many Defenders OR Corrs on Freedom or virtue. To be honest we need more support out there...to many times on teams have we had nothing but dmg type AT's with no type of support what-so-ever. Yeah, sometimes we get 1 on a team but still that's just sad. My Pain Corr and Dark Defender gets a lot of invites!
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They wrote a description on the box that contradicts their definition, a definition that they only decided to enforce after the fact. It's very much their fault they lied, and they continue to lie by not changing the box's print.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Again, your metaphor doesn't work. They told us they're giving us a tank, which by their definition is something that can take damage. It is not the fault of the devs that you misinterpret their design and expect something else.
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| If half of what I've heard of the incarnate system is true, I'll be taking those monsters down myself |
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| quickly. |
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| Because I can team with seven blasters that offer no support and still tank them six (perhaps more) at a time. |
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| The circumstance was I decided to herd up a few monsters before the Hami raid started. I got to six DE monsters and sent a tell to the raid leader saying I had a group for him due east. He then said "Oh, great. Just hang on a few minutes, we're still forming teams." |
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| I've also jumped head first into the Rikti Bowl during a mothership raid before the rest of the raid was ready to head into the bowl. I kept the attention of one GM and the rest of the aggro cap of level 54 Rikti while everyone else planted two more bombs. I'd love to see any brute accomplish that without support. |
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| When the incarnate system hits, it's going to grant a ton of offense (at least, that's what it seems like). Considering that, the ones to benefit most will be the ones who can already survive the most. |
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Also, woohoo! Post 5,000! Only took me 5 years to get there
Be well, people of CoH.