So those obsolete ATs


Amy_Amp

 

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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
I know Vanguard.

You know who suffers on a TF or team mission with Vanguard-type enemies? Tankers.
Actually, it's Brutes, assuming they're on the team.

They have less mitigation than Tankers, do more damage, and since they also have a taunt component in their attacks, they pull aggro off of the Tankers.


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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
My IOed Tanker stuggled against Master Illusionists that my Scrapper could take down before they could summon all their pets and then phase repeatedly.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
I didn't talk about my Invul Tanker fighting MIs at all. Learn to read.
Learn to read yourself - while you're at it, pay attention to what you write. It was quoted in the post you replied to. I highlighted the relevant part, so that no matter how lazy you are when replying you'd have to try to miss it.


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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

 

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Originally Posted by Siolfir View Post
Actually, it's Brutes, assuming they're on the team.

They have less mitigation than Tankers, do more damage, and since they also have a taunt component in their attacks, they pull aggro off of the Tankers.
I've never had Brutes pull aggro from my Tankers.


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Learn to read yourself - while you're at it, pay attention to what you write. It was quoted in the post you replied to. I highlighted the relevant part, so that no matter how lazy you are when replying you'd have to try to miss it.
How does "My IOed Tanker" = Invul?


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Originally Posted by PennyPA View Post
As I recall, there were numerous threads on such&such AT becoming obsolete after GR came out. Just curious, but from my limited view on Victory, I am seeing pretty much every AT in mixed teams. I always thought people will play what they want to play. Tankers will tank, brutes will be brutish, defenders defend those dastardly corruptors, and so forth.

Anyone else seeing this or are some of the predictions coming true? Too early?
I always figured the biggest swing that most threatened an existing AT was from Tankers to Brutes, because no existing content really needs as much tanking prowess as a Tanker can bring, while more damage almost always makes things go faster. While it's always dangerous to assume you understand anybody else's thoughts, it seems that the devs were thinking somewhat along the same lines, given that GR also buffed Tanker damage and peak survivability and slightly nerfed Brute sustained damage and potential damage in most practical situations.

I'll give it a few months to see how the Defender/Corruptor thing works out over time. I'm personally highly unlikely to ever make another Defender, but I long ago learned the hazards of ascribing my personal preferences to the populace at large.


TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!

 

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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
No, it's not balanced one bit.

If it was balanced, Scapppers wouldn't be able to obtain the survivability needed to solo an AV, nor would Tankers be able to muster the damage needed to.

Scrappers being able to muster the damage AND survivability to solo AVs, and (provided there's even Tankers capable of soloing AVs at all) doing it faster than a Tanker isn't balanced. It favours the Scrapper completely.

Bill, you're the biggest hypocrite on these boards. You got your cake and ate it too, and you mock anyone who asks the devs for some..
This is EXACTLY what Bill meant by you not understanding game balance.

The game is NOT balanced around AVs. The notion that it is makes me wonder what game you're actually playing.

Scrappers can solo an AV faster so the games not balanced? Oh brother.

A) The game's not balanced around IO's.
B) The game isn't balanced around fringe challenges which the vast majority of characters wouldn't stand a chance with.
C) The ATs are NOT balanced so EVERY AT does the SAME thing at the SAME rate. If you think Scrappers being able to solo and AV quicker than Tankers means Tankers need a damage boost to be "balanced" you might want to consider an MMO with homogenized classes. That isn't the case here. It never has been. It never will be.

Like Bill said, it's a pre-school concept. You already shot your case into a million pieces and made it clear that you don't get the concept.


@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.

 

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Originally Posted by Gilia View Post
This is EXACTLY what Bill meant by you not understanding game balance.
Anyone trying to justify soloing AVs and Pylons intended for raid teams doesn't get to comment on game balance. Period.

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you don't get the concept.
The "concept" is that the devs let some ATs get away with anything, get to be generally better in every way that matters, get to solo best and get the same rewards on teams as everyone else and get to start a team like anyone else.
I don't want to "get" that concept because it's not balanced or fair.


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Originally Posted by Dz131 View Post
wut? hp caps? If you're down to the point where your extra hp is actually going to come in handy, you're pretty much on your way down anyway(eg. you failed).

Unless there's like 10% of extra damage mitigation I'm missing somewhere tankers are basuically brutes with a weaker soloing game.

Extra hp is just a noob buffer so your new lv 50 tanks can survive sometimes where your new lv50 brute wont. When both are at the top end it dont matter.

the only exception I think is pvp because of the psychologoical advtange that comes with a tanker (eg you're harder to take down.)

Are you saying that every single willpower character is doing it wrong? Just curious.

edit for clarity:

Extra health is like adding extra everything. In some situations its linear. With 10% more health I'll last 10% longer and dish out 10% more damage before I fall. If you give that tank a healer, suddenly the advantages become geometric. A tank with a higher health pool is infinately easier to keep alive, everything else equal.
Willpower tanks give you a both, since its healing (regen) is boosted due to its relationship with your health pool.


 

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The "concept" is that the devs let some ATs get away with anything, get to be generally better in every way that matters, get to solo best and get the same rewards on teams as everyone else and get to start a team like anyone else.
So it doesn't matter that tanks get higher base HP, higher HP caps, higher base damres and defense, higher damres caps, better taunt auras, AND a damres debuff on their tier 1.

No, of course not. Not in your delusional, crybaby world where you can't solo Hamidon.

Someone break out the violins. And bring a lot of cheese.

Oh yes, the game is so grossly unbalanced because everyone gets the same amount of XP for the same enemy. The game is horrifically broken because everyone can invite other players to a team.


Be well, people of CoH.

 

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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Anyone trying to justify soloing AVs and Pylons intended for raid teams doesn't get to comment on game balance. Period.
Talk about some cognitive dissonance. YOU invoked the example of soloing AVs as an example of imbalance.

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The "concept" is that the devs let some ATs get away with anything, get to be generally better in every way that matters, get to solo best and get the same rewards on teams as everyone else and get to start a team like anyone else.
I don't want to "get" that concept because it's not balanced or fair.
Maybe I can boil it down to be a little more simple.
The game, while it can appear very repetitive, consists of different levels, zones, ATs, powersets, difficulty levels, team dynamics, skill levels, investment in build, and other variables which all change.

The game is not balanced around one set of circumstance. You keep bringing up the same scenario or two over and over and claiming it's not fair because the melee classes don't all perform the same. No, sorry, but soloing AVs is not "better in every way."

Some ATs level faster. Maybe that's what's fun for you. So you play an AT whose damage modifier starts very high and gets a monstrous damage boost from its inherent right off the bat.

Perhaps you prefer to solo and want nothing to do with steam rolling teams, so you play a stealthy character who can take down small mobs faster than anyone else... even though they can't steam roll.

Perhaps you want to solo AVs as fast as possible.

Perhaps you want to play damage mitigation for small teams. There's ATs for that.

You honestly don't think it's fair that toons that can solo are rewarded equally in teaming? Yeesh... That really doesn't deserve to be dignified with a response but *sigh* ... That's the game's culture anyway. As reference by a few posters previously, support is often more sought after in PuGs. That's the extra reward.


@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.

 

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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
So it doesn't matter that tanks get higher base HP, higher HP caps, higher base damres and defense, higher damres caps, better taunt auras
What special advantages do these things afford Tankers?

Surely they're the most popular AT then with all of those perks? The richest AT on average?

No? Which AT is according to the devs then? Oh...Scrappers? Hmm. How about that.


The "benefit" Tankers get for those attributes is special responsability for the team's wellbeing. Often they're expected to do it on their own with no support. They're the first that get the blame if things go south in my observation, and as others here have pointed out, are expected to carry all-Blaster (read: bad/nightmare)teams.

Tankers are a relatively unpopular AT. They lost to being the least rolled blue side to Defenders in the last info released by the devs. They're asked a lot by teams, more than any AT I've ever seen. I've personally taken more crap on my Tankers than on all other ATs combined. Nobody tells my Crab how to Crab. Nobody says boo to my Blasters. People let Scrappers run wild and even give it an affectionate name. Yet, every two-bit two-month wonder thinks he knows what my Tankers should be capable of at level 5. Yet in game, I tank with a smile and I'm personally sought after. In fact, I'm pretty sure one 2XP weekend Bill sat in AE while one of my Tankers farmed for him and friends.

Tankers are asked a lot, yet they don't get a lot in return. The myth that they "get on teams more" and that somehow offsets their soloing is bogus because any Scrapper at any time can form a team themselves.


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AND a damres debuff on their tier 1.
Because I love buffing the damage of Scrappers I'm teamed with further while already giving them a huge survivability boost by absorbing damage.



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Yet in game, I tank with a smile and I'm personally sought after. In fact, I'm pretty sure one 2XP weekend Bill sat in AE while one of my Tankers farmed for him and friends.
You play on Pinnacle? If not, then no, it wasn't me. Come to think on it, I solo my own AE farming, so I seriously doubt it. On top of that I haven't sat in a mission while someone else did the killing since around issue 3 and hated it then. Good thing you said "pretty sure." On top of all of that, if I were to ever find myself on a team with you, I'd quit in a heartbeat. There's no way in hell I'd ever sully my playtime with the likes of you.

As for the rest of your post, more whining. Don't like teams of 7 blasters and your tank? Don't be on them.

Tanks are unpopular? No wonder with people like you running around the forums constantly crying about how they aren't scrappers. They are a niche AT. Designed for a specific role. Don't like that role? Don't play tanks.

It's a wonder that my brother never seems to have the same gripes as you when his main is a tank. Unlike me, he loves teaming and loves being the damage soaking aggro magnet that he is. Because of this and the SG he's part of, he always levels new characters faster than I ever can Because he teams so much.

Well.. it's not really a wonder. He understands how things work around here.

EDIT: Side note: I'm playing a tank right now. I'll be soloing him from 1 to 50 as I do so many of my characters. And I won't be whining about his damage output because I know how to build my characters to not suck.


Be well, people of CoH.

 

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How does any of that have to do with Tanks being unbalanced compared to other AT's? People may criticize Tanks more than other AT's, so what? Either lrn2play so people don't have a reason to criticize or ignore the idiots with these unreasonable expectations.

It sounds like you won't be happy with Tanks until they do damage on par with Scrappers.


[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]

 

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Johnny make a Stone/Ice Tank. Nobody will criticize you. And it's awesome for soloing.


 

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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
So it doesn't matter that tanks get higher base HP, higher HP caps, higher base damres and defense, higher damres caps, better taunt auras, AND a damres debuff on their tier 1.
Probably matters about as much as a Stalker having none of those and lesser in those regards than a Scrapper.

I guess it comes with the territory that Tankers or Stalkers aren't the 'beat chest' types, they just don't. But it doesn't make the others boasting about overpowering the game anymore right. It's probably a detriment to the health of the game, in fact.


 

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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
You play on Pinnacle? If not, then no, it wasn't me.
I know you play on Pinnacle. It's under your avatar.

I say 'pretty sure' because at the time I looked at the global of the character in question and noted it was one of the forum regulars who liked to show up in my threads and antagonize. And they said at the time that they didn't typically play on my sever.

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Come to think on it, I solo my own AE farming, so I seriously doubt it.
On top of that I haven't sat in a mission while someone else did the killing since around issue 3 and hated it then.
The person said something along those lines too. You sure it wasn't you?


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On top of all of that, if I were to ever find myself on a team with you, I'd quit in a heartbeat. There's no way in hell I'd ever sully my playtime with the likes of you.
How kind.
You'd never know it was me because as I said, I tank with a smile and nobody (who knows what they're talking about)complains about the quality and you wouldn't recognize my accounts/characters anyways.

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EDIT: Side note: I'm playing a tank right now. I'll be soloing him from 1 to 50 as I do so many of my characters. And I won't be whining about his damage output because I know how to build my characters to not suck.
S'funny. I'm working on a Claws/SR Brute on and off since GR launched. He just hit 27. I'll let you know when he faceplants.



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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
I guess it comes with the territory that Tankers or Stalkers aren't the 'beat chest' types, they just don't. But it doesn't make the others boasting about overpowering the game anymore right. It's probably a detriment to the health of the game, in fact.
Are you suggesting the game would be better off if Stalkers and Tankers were the only melee ATs? That I can agree with.



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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post

Because I love buffing the damage of Scrappers I'm teamed with further while already giving them a huge survivability boost by absorbing damage.
If you are ever on a team with somebody and you are not glad you have a debuff that increases their damage and are able to help them survive to dish out that damage, you're a terrible player. Period. There are no exceptions. You have no business teaming with somebody you personally hate enough to not want to help, and you have no business teaming period if you don't want to help your teammates in general.

So I'm sincerely hoping that the sarcasm I'm pretty sure I detected in what you posted wasn't actually there.


TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!

 

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Originally Posted by Jabbrwock View Post
If you are ever on a team with somebody and you are not glad you have a debuff that increases their damage and are able to help them survive to dish out that damage, you're a terrible player. Period. There are no exceptions. You have no business teaming with somebody you personally hate enough to not want to help, and you have no business teaming period if you don't want to help your teammates in general.

So I'm sincerely hoping that the sarcasm I'm pretty sure I detected in what you posted wasn't actually there.
Sorry, I wouldn't cheer if I saw someone with a trust fund win the lottery either. It doesn't mean I have something personal against them.


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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Are you suggesting the game would be better off if Stalkers and Tankers were the only melee ATs? That I can agree with.
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Its 11:30 have you hugged your brute today ?


 

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Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Its 11:30 have you hugged your brute today ?
This is the only Brute I truly have room in my heart for...





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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Are you suggesting the game would be better off if Stalkers and Tankers were the only melee ATs? That I can agree with.
Technically, I was speaking about any AT that makes it a habit to overpower the game 'loudly'. I'm pretty sure there's lots of Stalkers, Tankers, Khelds, Blasters and the like soloing GMs and hard AVs out there but it seems those aren't the ones you hear about all the time.

But no, I wouldn't say the game would be better off without those other ATs but perhaps without those players.


 

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Hmm, anyone else detecting some Crab Mentality/Jante Law/Tall Poppy Syndrome/etc...?


 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Technically, I was speaking about any AT that makes it a habit to overpower the game 'loudly'. I'm pretty sure there's lots of Stalkers, Tankers, Khelds, Blasters and the like soloing GMs and hard AVs out there but it seems those aren't the ones you hear about all the time.

But no, I wouldn't say the game would be better off without those other ATs but perhaps without those players.
I highly doubt it. Put in perspective the number of builds and players solo'ing AV's is already tiny compared to the number of players not doing it. The AT's you listed are generally the weakest at the task for various reasons, which is automatically going to make them less likely to be selected within the tiny subset of players attempting such tasks.

Put another way, there are way more fire/kins farming than ice/emps even if the latter can still technically do it. This is because people lean toward things that can successfully complete the task in the most befitting manner. In addition to that people converge closer and closer to a singular focal point with the dispersion of information.

So you have a small group of players solo'ing AV's, that by default tends to require a fair amount of game knowledge, which leads many of them to information hubs. The information hubs are all pushing forth a similar set of recommendations.

It's why you will always have more ill/rads solo'ing AV's than warshades. 1. They are better at it. 2. people disseminate the information so others pick ill/rads.

Anyway to the thread in general: there is a difference between obsolete and extinct. Saying (for instance) that tankers are obsolete now that brutes are available everywhere is not the same thing as saying tanks will never be played again.

Personally I don't think any AT is obsolete, but several are sitting on the fence and could go either way with just minor game changes. But again obsolete =! extinct.


 

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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
No, it's not balanced one bit.

If it was balanced, Scapppers wouldn't be able to obtain the survivability needed to solo an AV, nor would Tankers be able to muster the damage needed to.

Scrappers being able to muster the damage AND survivability to solo AVs, and (provided there's even Tankers capable of soloing AVs at all) doing it faster than a Tanker isn't balanced. It favours the Scrapper completely.

Bill, you're the biggest hypocrite on these boards. You got your cake and ate it too, and you mock anyone who asks the devs for some.

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So... nearest I can tell, the argument is that Brutes or Scrappers are better than Tanks because when compared to a Tanker, an identically-built Scrapper or Brute receives more damage whilst inflicting more damage. And that this larger amount of damage recieved (compared to a tanker) is still within the limits of what the Brute or Scrapper can handle and survive?

Whilst I can see where you're coming from, It occurs to me that that stance makes big assumptions on what you're facing, and what kind of support you have available.

As an example, it may well hold true for certain one-on-one AV or GM tanking situations. A Scrapper with a lot of time and money invested into their build can certainly tank one single foe for a prolonged period of time. However surviving is only part of the "Tank" role - Scrappers lack any form of AoE aggro management capability (outside of a few select sets with aggro auras). Their taunt is single-target, and none of their attacks generate a "taunt". Brutes have it slightly easier due to their single-target "punchvoke" version of gauntlet, but start out with a lower damage multiplier than tankers and depend on prolonged combat to maintain their damage output and these days can only very rarely achieve a damage "peak" as high as Scrappers.

Basically, whilst you can replace a Tanker for single target foes, there is no (Melee Damage AT) replacement for a Tanker's large-scale AoE Aggro management and Damage mitigation abilities. The Tanker AT's role is intended for weathering and holding the aggression of large groups of foes. A Scrapper's is "boss killing". Brutes are somewhere in between, but still don't come close to the large scale aggro management of Tankers.

Both "roles" assume that there is a need to manage aggro or dedicate specific ATs to dealing single target damage in the first place. On a team filled with toons that can all manage their own aggro, there is little need for it. Which is why, for example, the Fire/Rad superteam concept works so well.

Dominators, Controllers, etc. can apply damage output and damage mitigation too. And just as safely, assuming foes are not mez resistant. This is one of the reasons why you don't need any one AT in the game. You can quite happily operate with a Scrapper/Brute for tanking bosses and a Dominator/Controller for AoE aggro management. Or you can replace both roles with a Tanker, and use the second slot for raw AoE damage output. Or you can use both slots for a Defender/Corrupter/Mastermind and stack buffs/debuffs.

As an aside, it's quite possible to build a high-ST-damage orientated Tanker. Or a high-mitigation Scrapper. But you're not playing to the AT's strengths by doing that, merely attempting to cover their weaknesses. You end up making the character into a jack-of-all-trades generalist, rather than a specialist. And usually it's different specialists that combine well to make the best teams.

If I needed to fill the "aggro management" role for a Task Force team I would certainly rather have a INV/SS Tanker along than a DM/Shield, for example. Despite the fact that both would be capable of tanking the "End Boss" AV, the Tanker AT would ensure the team had a far safer and smoother road to get there. The extreme Single Target damage output of the Scrapper would be a nice "extra", certainly, but it would be largely superfluous to the role I'd need them to fill on the team. Especially if the difficulty level was jacked up (More Exp. Yay! But need much more AoE aggro control and AoE damage than ST aggro control and ST damage).


Disclaimer: This post is brought to you by someone who plays both Scrappers and Tankers, and tends to run with them IO'ed at level 50 more often than not. Given that most Brute Melee sets running an optimised attack chain at extreme levels of recharge can still only achieve ~180DPS or less Single Target (after enhancements and assuming a constant 75% Fury) and I've an Elec/DM Tanker that can do the same (albeit whilst hitting the 90% S/L/E resist caps, >50% N, >65% F/C and >70% Psi, regenerating >45HP/Sec whilst sitting at more than 100HP over than the Scrapper AT's HP cap, inflicting a regular 20% -resist to eveything around him and a <2 minute downtime on Power Surge, whilst maintaining full AoE aggro lock with a Damage aura, Taunt itself and a Ranged AoE attack) I've no real complaints. If you're going to start trying to compare or balance damage output/mitigation numbers around what's possible with IO'ed builds across the various melee ATs, you'll be at it forever.


 

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Oh, is Johnny complaining again that scrappers are overpowered because a small number of them are soloing AVs?

Yes, Johnny, we understand that you think tanks should have the highest survivability AND the highest damage output as well.

When you start seeing scrappers that can go AFK in front of an AV and still be alive on their return, maybe THEN you can complain.

I have exactly ONE scrapper that can solo AVs, and it requires a perfect blend of me being on my game and the random number generator going in my favor. The scrapper in question is a Broadsword/Dark Armor. If Parry misses even one time, I'm dead. If the AV gets a couple lucky hits in a row in, I'm dead. If something else gets agroed on me at the same time, I'm dead. There are any number of things that can kill me before I can react to it.

Conversely, my wife has a Dark Armor/Fire tank. Same defensive set as my scrapper, with a similar level of performance, and similar amount of inf spent on it. She can't put the AV down, but she can go AFK in front of the damn thing without worrying.

We duoed a Giant Monster, just to see if we could, she was playing her tank, and I was on my Rad/Sonic defender. I DCed and all my toggles dropped off of it. She stayed right in front of the GM until I came back and her HP bar never moved. This was with one of the tanker primaries widely regarded as "weak".

I have NEVER seen a scrapper that was capable of a similar feat. Not even Bill Z's insanely built Claws/SR scrapper can stand in front of Jurassik indefinitely with no worries of dying.

I've never seen a scrapper tank tower-buffed Lord Recluse unassisted, but I've seen tanks do it numerous times. Never seen a scrapper take Dr. Aeon for that matter, since he's capable of hitting for more than scrapper max HP cap (he hit me for 2900 damage on an STF, scrapper HP cap is 2409)

Tanks are capable of feats of unassisted survivability that scrappers and 99.9% of brutes can't even come close to matching. If you want them to have damage output comparable to scrappers and brutes, you'd have to give up that ability to survive or the game would not be balanced. It really is THAT simple.

It's not like any random scrapper is going to go solo AVs with SOs, the ones that can do it are a VERY small percentage of the scrapper population. Sure, it's talked about a lot on the scrapper boards, but how many people are actually doing it? Not very damn many, maybe 1-2% of all the scrappers in the game are doing it, and they have insanely expensive builds most of the time.

I can solo a couple of them with my BS/DA, but there are a few that he can't even HOPE to take down, because they resist his damage too much. I'm sure I could probably build to get the damage outpt to take them down, but I built my scrapper for survival, which hurts his damage output. If I build to have the damage to drop them, I won't survive the fight long enough to win it.

SRs can't solo any AV that uses non-positional Psionic attacks. Niether can Invuln. That's one type of AV my DA does well against, but anything that uses ranged Energy damage slaughters me in seconds. There is no scrapper build I am aware of that can solo every single AV in the game equally, there are some that will squash them like a bug. On the opposite side, there are very few AVs that a tank can't survive fighting, basically just non-positional Psi users with certain tank primaries.

You seem to be thinking that because a few outlier scrapper players can do crazy things it means the whole game is unbalanced or unfair, and it's just not true.


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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
I'm sure I could probably build to get the damage outpt to take them down, but I built my scrapper for survival, which hurts his damage output. If I build to have the damage to drop them, I won't survive the fight long enough to win it.
That, Ladies and Gentlemen, JB in particular, is balance.

JB, Tankers dont need more damage. They need more content designed to challenge their surviveability. Content that would extremely challenge a scrapper or brutes surviveability.

Taking aggro control out of the picture, there is no question that tanks are more surviveable, the issue is that scrappers/brutes can survive long enough to drop the mob/s, and really, thats all the surviveability you need.