So those obsolete ATs

This is the singular most respectful, understanding and reasonable reply I've ever gotten.

I would say as things stand now, Brutes conflict with Tankers. Even with the Fury changes, Brutes still want aggo and so do Tankers. They'll never 'play nice' together because of that. It's like Stormies and Melee ATs: neither is doing anything but what they were intended, but they'll chafe none the less.

Also, personally, I'm sore about Brutes getting a mechanic designed and originally intended for Tankers, even if I'm not the biggest fan of said mechanic. It's the principle and just another example of the devs giving Tankers the short end of the stick.


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It is pretty easy to get 34%+ melee defense on a /fire scrapper. Pop a small purple. Kill stuff. Combine inspirations to make more purples. Rinse. Repeat. Resists kick in when defense fails. Punch off healing flames if mobs are ripping though resists. Consume keeps blue bar topped up.

I have an IOed fire tanker, yes its fun, yes it is tougher, but if I feel like playing will it blend, the scrapper will do it much faster, while surviving well enough.


That was paraphrasing Maelwys when he responded to my post where I said Please note that I never said there was no content that could challenge a tank, I just asked for more, and in situations that a scrapper or brute would wilt.

I have a high damage tank. My scrapper is still faster. I have a high aggro tank, with massive, massive layered defenses. Its not often I feel the need to pull him out.

Honestly, I have high hopes for the new content. I hope praetoria for my lvl 50's will be as much fun as it is for my lowbies, I can't wait to grit my teeth while I walk the tight rope between utter pwnage or failure as my spines/fire aoes the crap out of a spawn of ghouls and they fire off the pbaoe death heal and bring all the survivors back up to full hp.

When you said resistance based, I thought you meant resistance based.

How is /Fire not resistance based?

There are all types of conflicts possible with teammates, true. Part of the fun, for me, is figuring out how to gel best with teammates whose powers are less than complementary. I certainly would not want to run in teams like that too frequently, but it is interesting from time to time.

There are several ways for brutes and tankers to work well on the same team, IME. It seems like one of the least egregious conflicts.

It has been 12 issues (is it almost 5 years now, or just 4?) since Brutes were released. Stop picking at the scab and the wound might heal better.

I totally understand where you are coming from on that line though. After VEATs came out I was aghast. I probably made some less than dignified posts about how ridiculous it was to release VEATs, but allow blasters to wallow in a nigh defenseless / nigh enemy debuffless / team buffless state. It felt to me like the whole point of Castle's thread on blasters and defiance was just to get an idea of what people would like to see for VEATs, rather than to actually do anything to the blaster AT (OK, it still feels that way, but I should stop picking at the scab too).

Mitigation-wise, it is more heal based, in and of itself. On top of that, when you build it to 34% defense and then keep one purple up to perma soft-cap Defense, then it is Defense based.

LOL, you should go through the list of things that forum goers have either had a wrong consensus on or have had sizable minorities that were just wrong.

You and I clearly have very different ideas about what balance consists of.

I like a game where each AT has it's role, and they are more or less equal. This game is not perfect in that regard, but it comes close enough that I'm happy with it. I do not feel that the AT that is the best at keeping itself alive should also be the best at dishing out damage.

From everything you keep spewing out, my take on YOUR idea of balance is:

You want a game where tankers do everything the best and you only need a team when you feel like having spectators.

Because that's how they do it in the comics.

Quit with the ******* scrapper envy already.

I wish my scrapper could survive a +4 tower buffed Lord Recluse with no help, but do you see me lobbying and complaining every chance I get to have them buffed because I don't think it's fair that another AT can do something mine can't? No, you don't, and you never will. Because I understand that it would be unbalanced if scrappers could both survive the best AND deal the most damage.

You have glossed over or outright ignored every single example given in this thread of something a tank can do that no other AT can accomplish. And you keep going right back to the "Scrappers can solo AVs and tanks can't! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!" that you've been spewing for at least 2 years now.

If you want people to treat you with courtesy and respect, stop acting like a child every time someone says something you don't like.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

This is correct but doesn't go far enough. Cascade failure is actually the preferred way for a blaster to lose their defense. Much worse is for one mez attack to hit a blaster, then they have lost most of their defense, most of their damage output, and any ability to regain hitpoints at a significant rate.

There really is a question of just what the role descriptions should be.

Scrappers,brutes, controllers post epic, to be able tear through content solo or make major contributions to teams. Check

Defenders and to a lesser extent Corruptors. Make their team mates look good. Check

Tankers. Annoy enemies by not noticing anything they are doing to them. Check

Blasters, frustrate life insurance salesmen, provide ongoing reasons for XP smoothing and nerfing any penalty from dieing. Check.

Stalkers, make people feel just what it is like to be a lone frustrated nutcase that sneaks up on things and kills them. Check.

Layering defenses is just that. As the mobs get more difficult, I add another layer. Resistance will always be the the first layer. It is not semantics, it is resistance based defense.

Meh, he added defense on top of the resistance, so no matter which is the larger portion of mitigation, the base is still resistance.

Except for the part that where my blasters can ATTACK WHILE Mezzed: usually killing, stunning, or kbing what mezzed them, or I don't know . . . pop a break free.

Amazingly my toons that die the least are my blasters.

Wow... another argument using a vague example with no explanation whatsoever. No concrete examples, no enumerated list, just a poorly marked position devoid of any evidence or support. Oh what do you know, it also lacks any relevance or a clear understanding of the discussion at hand. All it does is take a contradictory position, and nothing more. That's what we call in the business "trolling."

There's a word for arguments like this, and most that Another_Troll has provided. It begins with a bovine animal and ends with explicative.

Grow up. Seriously.

It's bad enough having one person per thread who babbles and whines incessantly without actually understanding basic game mechanics or how to debate a relatively simple subject. I find it interesting based on the next two posts of Another_Troll that he doesn't even agree with JB. How much ignorance and arrogance has to be mustered to take a position that no one else in the same context has taken? That must be awful lonely...

Just to clarify, even though I know you probably won't have made it this far through the post before responding with more ignorance, the point was YOU should have provided the so-called list if you wanted to be taken even the slightest bit seriously. I know of a few myths that were commonly believed, and a few more that still are, yet THOSE myths can be debunked by presenting the math which the game mechanics follow. When a minority believes a myth that's just as readily debunked, it's that much more pathetic when they continue with this trolling tantrum-style arguing and hold that position.

There's a whole 'nother thread where Another_Troll is holding up his ignorance-based argument despite being bombarded with more than a hundred posts that succinctly and simply show why he's wrong. There's no reason to start trying to show him any sense here.

Edit: It's worth noting that he actually just doesn't respond when it's pointed out that he put words in another person's mouth or is flat wrong about a subject. He nit picks at some subjective details then tries to spin that back to his initial argument. It's kind of like when a mother and her child are arguing. The mother explains as best she can why the child can't go out after dark and the child says "but I want to!" and the mother said "you can't because I said no." Then the child latches on to the "I said no" part and claims it's not fair. That's because the child's memory is so short and his ability to rationalize is so poor that he doesn't even realize that the mother already gave a full explanation before having said "I said no." The child doesn't get that it is fair, because the child's not as smart as the mother.

When discussing mitigation the convention is the "base" is what is doing most of the work. SinisterDirge's build's base is Defense. When that is bypassed, he has resists and a heal to back it up. The fact that the powerset he is using is not Defense based is irrelevant to what his final build is.

I may be incorrect about the healing in Fiery being more potent than the resistance. I don't think I am, but I am not positive.

Thanks never really thought it through I guess. I thought that softcapping was a blasters mez protection, and that once def debuffed, a blaster relying on that was in a world of hurt.

What makes you think I have to spend all of my time softcapped?

In the early levels yes, its a crutch. I don't need to heal nearly as often anymore, so again...

Nothing. But even at 34%, the Defense is still the main workhorse.

yeah I LOLing irl while reading that thread right now.

Cause you know blaster drop down dead the second they are mezzed amirite?

Cause we all know that corrupters and doms can attack while mezzed . . . o wait, they aren't the AT that can do that.



EDIT: I'm afraid to tell you what I think about that other thread without getting mod smacked. For anyone else looking to giggle are pure nonsensical, have at it: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...=238663&page=2

I especially like that part where an AT with .75 damage mod is said to do more damage than one with 1.125 damage mod.

Math is hard. LMFAO!

Maybe your definition of base differs from the norm, but I use it to mean "foundation."

He is playing a resistance based set, much like my DA (softcapped to S/L/E/N) tank. DA's heal is the best in the game, but the set itself survives more because of the resists.

Layers on top of the base are just that. I don't care what's doing the most work, what you start with is your foundation.

Please refer to Dechs Kaison's softcap guide. Actually, the main workhorse is my primary, and epic. If I couldnt take out the spawn fast enough, I would be a smear. Death is the best mitigation. I can just hold out longer, and more reliably than an aoe centric blaster.

In my opinion, that is exactly where Scrappers are now.

In the comics, great power comes with great responsibility. Tankers have been burdened with being responsible for aggro and being the front line, usually alone. I guess the power got lost in the mail. If merely surviving is your definition of power, Hibernate and Phase Shift are the most powerful things in the game.


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This isn't a comic book.

Actually, Claws just understands what we've tried explaining in this thread a few times. Different ATs have different pro's and con's, shine in different circumstances, and do poorly in others, etc etc.

Tankers do more than just survive. Do you really not get that?