So those obsolete ATs

It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets

... Hit it ...

Yes, offense is important, of course. But you are now shifting the goalposts. You claimed to be resist based, not offense based. I was curious how you could survive +3 / x8 spawns using primarily resistance for mitigation, while assuming you were killing quickly as well. The answer is, you can't. Because your primary source of mitigation is Defense.

Can we end this now? I understand what you are saying now. I have suggested the reason I misunderstood you was because you spoke in terms outside of the norm for this venue. You can either agree with me on that and speak in what I suggest is the norm in the future or you can think I am wrong and continue to speak as you did here.

Support > Melee



Except for when Brutes (who will be sharing - if not dominating - aggro, contrary to the picture you keep trying to paint), Scrappers or Stalkers are standing right next to them.

Or Melee range doms & blasters.

Or melee range VEATs.

Or anyone trying to make optimal use of character centered powers that do damage, buff or heal...



I will say that your tales of fiction do help pass the day at work.

It is not shifting goalposts to explain the layering of my defenses(as a whole, not defense, the game function) that allow me to do what I said I can do. After you asked.

Of course we can end this, but since you gave me a suggestion, may I make one for you? Look up the word foundation.

I'd try to help you out, but first just how much remedial education do you need ?

VS
and

http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...domitable_Will

http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...persion_Bubble

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Domination#Domination

So that would make corrupters, defenders, controllers, and dominators all ATs that have built in ways of not being mezzed or getting out of mezz.

LOL
You think all Corruptors take /Sonic or /Traps? You realize how few have Indomitable Will? Read your links. Seriously. The dispersion powers guard against Hold, Immobilize, and Disorient. IW's recharge is 360 vs a 90 second duration and it only adds Fear to the list.

Perma-Doms are well covered. With that exception, FEW builds of the support ATs have any mez protection, and even then it's gimp compared to the melee ATs.

ALL Blasters can fire through ALL mez. PERIOD.

lol... it's just so simple and you don't get it... even citing sources you clearly don't understand hahaha...

You did a better job at that than I would have. LOL.

I love how the forums pick ONE or two primary/secondaries and apply that to say that that's how ALL of it plays.

In case you weren't aware you can activate domination while mezzed.

All controllers can take indomitable will if they feel they need it.

That leaves sleep ? Or are you under the impression that defiance negates confuse ?

This is actually the point of my other posts. The game isn't balanced around soloing AVs.

...but then you've got people bragging and boasting about their builds soloing these things. Ultimately, you have the 'haves' (the ATs that can be built to do this) and the 'have nots' (the ATs that are excruciatingly difficult to build for this or impossible).

IMO, those raving about the game not being balanced around soloing AVs yet pocket their AV soloing Defenders and Brutes are as much in the right as those that think it shouldn't matter which AT you're using, you should be able to build to accomplish the same task.

I don't agree that every should be able to build to solo an AV.

I'd assume the devs don't either.

a blaster is the only one who can attack right out of the box whenever they are mezzed. in order for you to be able to use domination on a dom, you have to have a full domination bar built up. and you can't build a bar when you can't do anything.

as far as the controlers go, psionic mastery or more to point, indomitable will only lasts 90 secs. so again, a power that has to be up in order for it to be useful as long as it is before you get hit by a mez.

Then scrappers should be able to buff their teammates just as well as defenders.

Then stalkers should be able to draw, hold and survive aggro just as well as tanks.

Blasters should be able to control spawns as well as controllers.

These three statements make just as much sense as your statement. Which is to say, none at all.

And yet "Solo AVs" isn't in the job description of *any* AT so the parallels you attempt to create aren't.

The problem is they are the most likely (with exceptions) to need mez protection. In the solo case the controller/dominator can lock down an entire spawn as they engage it. The defender has many tricks to make certain they don't get hit by mezzes (their own controls such as dark's fearsome stare, Rads -to hit, etc). In the teamed case if there is a blaster that's actually doing their job any aggro that gets pulled off a tank or scranker finds it way directly to him.

I really feel the developers speak with forked tongues when it comes to balancing. You take the recent adjustments to the tanker,brute,scrapper trio. Any of which if well built can more or less say to the rest of the team "Follow me as best you can till I am at the AV then I will assemble" for 90% of taskforces vs people playing the other ATs that get to watch. Yes I have been on both sides of that, and I am not talking about stealthing. In the case of scrappers there is a fair chance they don't need anyone at the AV.

Edit and just to put this into stronger context. Before the bruise change I was on a Master of Khan run where the lead tank soloed every mission all of the final mission except the AV encounter. When I read castle was adding bruise to tanks to help them solo, I nearly spit coffee all over my monitor.

PS: Oh, I don't either. But that won't stop this from being a metric to measure an ATs worth, i.e. a Stalker is a single target specialist so the metric to measure how potent they are is if they can or can't "be the best" in that situation?

I shouldn't have to defend any AT's worth but it keeps coming up via short-sighted posters on the boards. Why is 'solo big sack of HP' on the benchmark for any AT's capabilities? If anything, that's all up to the player willing to commit to such a boring arduous task than it is a premiere feature of an AT.

Nor does anyone with a brain say that it is. So let's look at those job descriptions, shall we?

"No lone criminal wants to cross paths with a Scrapper - because odds are that only the Scrapper is going to walk away."

Translation: Single target killer
Archvillain: Single target

Working as intended. Does this mean that the job of all scrappers is to solo AVs? Nope. Their job is to attack hard targets and hopefully walk away victorious.

But we all know that there are other powerset combos that can also take out AVs. As with scrappers, we must ask "what are they giving up to be able to pull that off?"

Can that FF/ENE defender solo a few AVs? I've never heard of it happening, but at the same time, he can softcap defense on every one of his teammates.

My fire/fire tank probably won't be able to solo AVs but I have little doubt that he'll farm far faster than my claws/sr scrapper.

And once again we start to see what the term "balance" means around here for those that have a grasp of the concept.

None of my characters are awesome at everything. None of them are supposed to be. I have one with high ST damage that can solo a lot, but not even close to all, AV/Hero class enemies as long as they are even level. I have another that has vastly more survivability than the first but can't push out the same kind of damage. I have a third that when done will wade through standard spawns far faster than either of the first two.

I repeat: No character is Ever supposed to be awesome at Everything. There are some that are better at one thing while being worse at another. There are some that are good at everything but not the best at everything. This is balanced. This is working as intended.

This is why there are no obsolete archetypes and there won't be until NO ONE plays them.

I have to ask: Who gave you the idea that an AT's worth was based on its ability to solo AVs?

It certainly wasn't me. Or Werner. Or Iggy or any other regular posters to the scrapper boards. It wasn't Arcanaville. It wasn't Castle or any other developer. So where did you get that idea from?

What were you doing during all of this? What was the rest of the team doing? Why would anyone stay on a team where this was happening?

Hanging back at the entrance, The tank was the TL and that was how he wanted things done.

I mostly speed run TFS so I was there for the badge.

It's the ole "grass is always greener" scenario.

This is why I always tell my close guild/group friends in any of these kinds of games not to do something amazing and then go around bragging about it or making videos. That's a sure way to gain notariety (ugh don't look at my spelling) but also a good way to get hit with a nerf bat.

Sounds like a jerk. You could have easily quit the team and started a new TF with a team that would have sped through it in probably a quarter of the time it must have taken him.

I'm all for soloing TFs. It's fun when you have the time to kill, but there's certainly no reason to bother with it when you're not solo. If you do, you're wasting the time of 7 other players.

Why anyone would put up with that kind of behavior escapes me.

So you argue the AT descriptions applies to AVs too?


"The Tanker is an irresistible force combined with an immovable object."

AVs are resisting my irresistible force.


"The Tanker is a devastating hand to hand combatant"

None of my Tankers are devastating any AVs.




.

As I've told you before, that description fits the tank perfectly. He has the mitigation to stay alive indefinitely thus allowing him to slowly whittle away at his target over time.

AVs are only staying alive against you because you obviously don't know how to build for taking them out. The tools are out there. You choose not to use them. YOU are the problem. Not the description.

You were the one that brought in the AT properties (i.e. Defender buffing, Tanker aggro, Controller mitigation) into the argument.

The *point* of the post is that *no* AT is meant to solo AVs. If some can and some can't isn't the issue. It's the expectations of the players at large that is the issue, that is when min/maxing determines overall worth.

Those aren't the only posters on the boards but it's not like those regulars are doing much to dispute the fallacy either.

So it's your belief that the opinion of the majority of players is that if you aren't IOed to the gills and soloing level 54 AVs that the character is worthless? I'm at a loss as to where this belief of yours comes from.

Aren't we regularly told that most players don't even bother reading the forums or use Mids for their character's builds? Aren't we regularly told that most players are just happy to get on a team?

Can you in any way point to some proof that the majority of players have the opinion you think they have? Using myself as an example, I have two characters out of a full stable of characters on Pinnacle that I min/max at all and the second one is currently using a build I threw together in about 10 minutes in Mids. And yet all the other characters I'm bouncing around on Pinn with are in no way worthless to me or to the players I team with on the rare occasion I team.

So where does this belief of yours come from?