So those obsolete ATs

Oh no no no no...no...hell no.

If there's anything I've learned it's that I'm not going to waste my time scouring the forums for posts/threads that state my argument only for you to make a half-*** counter basically saying "that's not good enough" or some other BS.

No. No no no. Maybe for someone else on their own behalf, I'd consider putting forth the effort...

Hold on now, you made a claim that the player base at large determines the worth of a character through min/maxing.

You made the claim, burden of proof is on you.

But you're right, you can't find enough posts/threads about it because they don't exist. Assuming we've got 100k active subs, you better find over 50k people who agree that a character's worth is solely determined through min/maxing. Good luck.

If your claim was remotely close to accurate, there wouldn't be any players using the sub optimal sets or non-synergistic combos. We wouldn't see FF/NRG defenders. We wouldn't see Peacebringers. We wouldn't see stalkers, or SR anythings, or a whole list of the commonly berated sets that have "better alternatives."

Please, though, allow me to be the first in the line to tell you that the min/max potential doesn't mean a damn to me when making a character.

I'll line up right behind him.

I make characters based on whatever cool idea pops into my head (it's MY character, so I don't really care if anyone else thinks the idea is cool), if the character makes it past level 25 or so, I'll start looking into min/maxing it according to whatever goal I have in mind for it.

I have 5 or 6 characters that are heavily IOed, a few more that are moderately IOed, and a slew that are still running SOs or basic IOs.

And just because I know someone is going to reference my post about building an Invuln/DB tank to solo AVs to try and prove this post to be a lie, I've had an idea for one for a while now, I just haven't got around to building it because I've been playing other things. The only thing I need to do is check and see if the name I want is available (it should be, but you never know)

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

This could sum up the problems in both this thread and that other blaster one perfectly.

In other words, you have a belief that you won't even bother attempting to back up with any kind of evidence. Got it.

Since you've learned that your less than well thought out opinions are usually knocked out of the ballpark with ease, you should probably take it to the next step and not bother sharing such thoughts in the first place since they contribute nothing of worth to the discussion.

What HAS been shown in this and many other threads is that it is NOT a commonly held belief amongst the player population that soloing AVs or finishing the ITF in 26 minutes or running Master of TFs are the benchmarks of a good character or group of characters.

What is common to see is that those that have pulled off such stunts do so with planning, time and work all based around a proper understanding of the game's mechanics and while usually giving up something else in the process.

In my case, as I don't get to play nearly as much as I used to, I only have one character that gets tweaked regularly with the min/maxing mindset. One character that I use to farm for inf and merits so that I can afford the goodies necessary to keep him at the top edge of performance.

And the amusing part of that character? He's not very good at anything when compared to some of the other min/maxed creations out there.

Without a damage aura, his farming speed is on the low end. Without a self-heal, when a fight doesn't go his way and he runs out of green insps, it's game over and a trip to the hospital. I ran an STF with BZB the other night. I faceplanted once while getting to LR and then another 8 times while we tried to take down the towers and LR himself. My posted pylon time isn't even in the top half of the times posted.

Does any of that actually bother me? No. I've pulled off some fun crap that I didn't expect to pull off and I've got more improvements coming with I-19... just like everyone else.

And that's one character out of... what.. 16 or so on Pinnacle? Do I or anyone else think that all those other characters suck or that they're useless? Of course not. I don't expect ridiculous things. I understand that to accomplish tasks certain steps must be taken first. I know that the fire*3 tank that I'm now planning to become my main farmer is going to be designed specifically for that purpose. His mitigation won't be that great. His single target damage won't be very good either. But he'll be melting through +0/x8 spawns in ways that my other two main characters can't even dream of.

Will this new tank be able to solo AVs? Not with the build I plan for him. Is that working as intended? Yes. Could I redesign him so that he was an AV killer? I don't know. I wouldn't bother while using FA because I don't consider it a strong mitigation set. Were I to want an AV killing tank, I'd look to the sets that would give me the best starting point for single target damage and overall mitigation.

Back on point, people that think every AT in the game with every powerset combination should be able to accomplish what everything else can; or those that think a character is useless unless it's got a 4 billion inf build; or those that spend years ignoring the reality of archetype balance because they can't one shot an AV with their medium damage archetype are not thinking clearly. And that's being as nice as I can be.

No can't say I was, hats off to them.

Edit: is there any information about the tactics used ?

That is close to what I think. The metric I have seen is the "team" XP/time, where the team component is making the AT obsolete.

I wish I would have kept the screen shot, but once I teamed with a player that kept calling out numbers in group chat. I haven't teamed with this person before (and a few others of team didn't either) and it was asked what are the numbers. It was the XP per unit time (min? I can't remember) they were tracking - not sure how they did that. And the player was letting us know we were (way) off the optimal mark. Anyhow, this player only lasted one mission to go find a better team, even though no one died and we were a pretty good mix of ATs.

This is where my reading of obsolete ATs comes from. I have encountered (as probably everyone in this thread I bet) times where players are more focused on the rewards, like merits or XP per time invested, rather than just teaming. Oh well, back to the thread!

Actually I wasn't aware, but kind of expected that a All Blaster MoSTF . . . well really an All Blaster Master of Anything . . . would have been a no brainer to have been done by now.

why this would shock anyone is beyond me, and anyone who would say they are shocked by it or didn't expect it shows that they really don't get how the general playerbase (ie, non-min maxing forum readers) ACTUALLY sees blasters. Hint: They don't see them as falling over if someone looks at the wrongly, or faceplanting if they get mezzed.

If you said "There have been all baster MoSTFs done" in b-cast, in-game, folks would probably be like "and?"

EDIT: In the age of IOs it's even less surprising.

I was not personally involved, but I had a lengthy conversation with the "tank" of the team, and NRG/NRG/Force blaster who runs tough/weave in his standard build.

He said most of it was trivial until AV fights, which actually required intelligent play. His team was mostly IO'd to the gills, and they stacked a few instances of maneuvers. The four patrons were handled by single pulls, and Recluse was tanked pretty much through PFF for the ten seconds or so it took to knock down the towers.

That's just one example, of course, and the only one I can speak for.

I would have thought the treespec would have been the big problem. The thorn tree has enhanced accuracy and damage over time attacks.

Seing as there are several things in the TF that can take out a blaster before they can even react its impressive.

Sorry you don't think its praiseworthy or an accomplishment.

Not that I'm aware of. It does have defense debuffs, however. Even if it did, the level 54 AVs have a 2.1 accuracy modifier, doubling their chances to hit you. Against a softcapped character, that's still only a 10% chance.

I'm sure the blasters could find places to fire at vines from cover of rocks if they really were that worried about it.

This, I believe, is evidence of the flaw in your view on blasters. Blasters shouldn't be the ones reacting to things trying to kill them. They need to be proactive about their mitigation. This does, however, require forethought.

That is certainly not true. But you believing that is not surprising and shows why you think an all blaster Master of Anything run is a big deal. It isn't.

EDIT: It also shows how you assume how all blasters play. I would say that if they are attempting a MASTER OF RUN, that they know how to play their blasters pretty well to the point that no, they won't fall over and die at the slightest mistake or enemy looking at them wrongly.

That you continue to think that people don't know how to play blasters so that they DON'T die EVER says something.

EDIT2: Just want to add for someone who seems to know alot about the APPs/PPPs I'm surprised that you're surprised that an all blaster Moster of Anything run would be difficult or shouldn't have already happened ages ago.

Prayer to the RNG then.


I believe this is evidence that you have read my views through biased eyes. Its not surprising given the number of posters on these boards that can go from an offer of congratulations to being shocked and think they are the same thing.

To be clear, are you saying you're NOT surprised that an all blaster MoSTF run has happened already? Just want to be clear that I'm not misunderstanding you.

My reaction was based on this exchange. In the grand scheme of things I would expect that there have been "all" master of runs for all the ATs. With all blaster ones being one of the first few I would assume to have happened, seeing as such a thing would not be difficult.

I have been on several masters runs for various things including the STF, where my blaster has been the only thing not to die. Thats why I consider it impressive, I am really aware of what it takes to get through it on a blaster.

I find using PFF to tank LR really lucky. I forget what his +to hit from towers is but I have seen tanks buffed to the point where they have 80% defense to everything and their own self heal taken down by him.

The thorn tree is another area where you can do everything right but still get unlucky. The same goes for hunting for the key.

I am sorry you don't appreciate their accomplishment.

Never said I didn't appreciate their accomplishment. It just isn't surprising. In fact I'd go as far as saying an All blaster run shouldn't be that difficult if folks are playing there blasters the way they are supposed to be in supposedly difficult situations.

Apparently we have fundamentally different experiences when it comes to blasters and Mo runs.

The tree spec in MANY of the runs I've been on has usually been the portion that usually goes smoothly. And I'm talking about runs where "if you die, you fail" is on.

Your comments baffle me even more.

And from my perspective, I have seen just about everything die in the tree room.

What can you say except that there are three different experiences of the game represented.

In any masters run there is going to be a certain amount of luck needed. I'd be equally impressed with an all scrapper masters run they would need luck but would need it in different places.

Ghost widow would likely be very annoying for them. She is what usually breaks melee heavy teams.

I can say that I believe you. I mean, it was hyperbole on my part to say it's always the scrappers. I have seen every AT die in the tree room, but on Mo's, it's predominately the scrappers.

Full disclosure here: I have a tactic on Mo that I ask people to follow. First, we clear out the Mages. I usually stay one mob ahead of the team to bring them behind rocks as we work our way around the front of the tree. This is the easy part.

For the vines, I tell everyone to stay watch their map and stay strictly between 9-3 o'clock on the top and hit every vine they can, even the ones outside that zone as long as they stay in the zone. While they do that, I kill the vines in front of the tree. If there is a scrapper I know, he can help me while I do this. I monitor my defense, and when it drops I duck behind a root and Dark Regen.

Invariably, on the failed attempts, some scrapper had an inferiority complex when I told him to stay out of the tree's range and decided to follow me around the front of the tree.