So those obsolete ATs
By
Amy_Amp,
Posted on: 2010-09-27 16:29 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Even outside of Praet. I was on two levels 50s. One being my namesake and thus a Kin/elec and one a scrapper, see sig. The scrapper got no tells for teams. The defender got three.
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Originally Posted by Negate
I haven't seen that many Defenders OR Corrs on Freedom or virtue. To be honest we need more support out there...to many times on teams have we had nothing but dmg type AT's with no type of support what-so-ever. Yeah, sometimes we get 1 on a team but still that's just sad. My Pain Corr and Dark Defender gets a lot of invites!
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I am not a huge Tanker but I must admit one of the most fun moments I had in the game was when I had a Tank surrounded by something like 8 Tsoo and suddenly I noticed they had stopped attacking me. When I looked, I realized they had all run out of endurance! They had punched themselves to exhaustion and my green bar had barely moved. Felt like a Super Hero for reals |
Originally Posted by Local_Man
Tanking loses out to damage in the game because almost all of the rewards come from doing damage. But sometimes, real tanking is fun. We get to play the ole, "Is that all you got?" attitude of being able to take everything the other side has to give; of the extreme tough guy. At times, that is more fun than a simple-minded Brute or Scrapper, who is only thinking "Kill! Kill! Kill!" |
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Originally Posted by macskull
From a powergaming perspective (i.e. just about everything I do, such as balls-to-the-wall fast TFs/SFs), every melee AT except Brutes - and Scrappers, now, thanks to the I18 Brute nerfs - are largely obsolete simply because you can stack a team full of buff/debuff, add a Blaster in for the extra damage, and you can steamroll 99% of content in the game. I'll take a mixed team of 8 Defenders/Corruptors/Controllers over just about anything, thanks.
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Umm, this is new? You know as well as I do that this has always been the case. Stacked buff/debuff teams have always been the most powerful in the game. Mixing the ATs from both sides has had no effect in this regard.
Too many alts to list.
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Not if you ask any of my 1/2 dozen (or so) active Stalkers.|
Originally Posted by DMystic
So stalkers are screwed then?
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In fact, I just rolled a new one last night... He's enjoying the Praetorian
scenery very much at L8 and counting...
Cheers,
4
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For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
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As much as I despise JB's constant whining about not being able to play Superman, it appears he has a more realistic expectation of the incarnate system than you do, Dechs.
| Actually, I expect you're dead wrong. The system was designed to uniformly increase everyone's power level (as uniformly as they can at least). That means an Incarnate Scrapper/Brute will be stronger to all existing enemies, and they'll still be doing more damage than an Incarnate Tanker. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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All I can say is that the powers I have seen the in game descriptions for, which will be granted by the incarnate system, will give my tanker -regen in his attacks and AoE massive damage procs. So far, that seems to be a very high focus on offensive capabilities. Until I see otherwise, I have to expect a uniform increase in offensive powers, not a uniform increase across the board.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
As much as I despise JB's constant whining about not being able to play Superman, it appears he has a more realistic expectation of the incarnate system than you do, Dechs.
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-regen is the only thing I need to down a GM.
Where to now?
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I have to agree with you in principle. This is similar to something I have mentioned. In my experience, the problems that most ATs have boil down to coming too close to the foe regeneration rate. Most other weaknesses can be overcome, but a lack of damage means that not only must you take longer to do damage, you must do MORE damage on top of that to compensate for the HP your foe regenerates while you do that damage. There eventually becomes a critical point at which you can no longer overcome the foes' regeneration, either because it is resistant to your damage type, or is able to heal itself somehow. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
All I can say is that the powers I have seen the in game descriptions for, which will be granted by the incarnate system, will give my tanker -regen in his attacks and AoE massive damage procs. So far, that seems to be a very high focus on offensive capabilities.
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For Tankers, Defenders, and other low damage ATs, this essentially means that if you attempt to compensate TOO much for their stronger defenses, they get caught in a stalemate where they cannot defeat or be defeated. Giving these characters offensive boosts that raise them off of this critical point helps far more than giving more defense to the characters that already have high damage.
Unfortunately, though, I suspect that what we are seeing of the Incarnate system is far too varied for it to be as you describe. While the effects we have seen may all be offensive, they are all offensive in to many unrelated ways. You have effects that globally Enhance all powers, self buffs, procs, pet summons, and many other things. I'm afraid I can't characterize that as being more weighted towards offense than defense.
Short version, I would agree with you in theory, but I think in practice you will turn out to be wrong.
Yea, I'm looking forward to the +recharge alpha backed by that -regen as well. And you very well could be correct that there's a heavy slant toward the offensive across all the incarnate powers.
What I disagree with is the concept that the incarnate system is going to somehow be more of a boon to tanks than the other archetypes.
IOs have already pushed brutes into tank mitigation ranges and they'll be getting the same offensive boost that tanks will.
Even my weakling claws/sr main is going to have his kill speed cranked up to ludicrous speed after I-19 and we all know that faster kill speed equates to less of a need for mitigation.
Will the incarnate system be awesome for tanks? Absolutely. But it's going to be awesome for everyone else as well.
YAY POWER CREEP!
Be well, people of CoH.
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All of those will likley function better for a Scrapper than a Tanker. A Scrapper's Judgement attack will do more damage than a Tankers. Even if they're the same and ignore damage mods, the Scrapper will still be doing more damage with every other attack.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
All I can say is that the powers I have seen the in game descriptions for, which will be granted by the incarnate system, will give my tanker -regen in his attacks and AoE massive damage procs.
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All this means, is that a Scrapper will be able to nuke a conventional spawn before the enemies even seriously hurt them.
This, in addition to being level shifted, will almost always put the Scrapper at the advantage.
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| -regen is the only thing I need to down a GM. |
Even if it's enough -regen for a Tanker to down a GM, simply cap Defense on a Scrapper and he can down that same GM, and faster than the Tanker.
The deck is stacked against Tankers because in this game, more survivability is easy to build for from a variety of sources and doesn't really require a reciprocating loss of damage. Scrappers and Brutes are very close to the optimal survivability they'd ever need and can get more if they want.
Survivability has diminishing returns. Increasing survivability is increasingly less usefull and will aid you in a smaller and smaller number of situations. On the other hand, returns on more damage does not diminish nearly as sharply; increasing levels of damage will contintue to be usefull until you get to the point where you're one-shotting GMs.
Also, since defeated enemies deal no damage, increaeing damage past a point has the indirect effect of increasing survival time.
In this environment, an AT with medium damage and high survivability will always be at a loss and disadvantaged to ATs with high damage and medium survivability.
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The fact is, the closer you are to either end of the spectrum (be you Glass Cannon or Stone Wall) the less you benefit from power creep. Scrappers and Brutes sit (too IMO)comfortably near the middle.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
YAY POWER CREEP!
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While there was a lot of noise made about Brutes making Scrappers obsolete. I do not see this yet.
Personnally I have started my first new tank in a year and is currently L34 and totally RED, my tank from last year is only L12. Beyond that I have not created a new tank since Issue 5/6 when I deleted 8 and stopped playing tanks. I predict this Red side tank to become one of my favorites now.
I have always liked defenders and have wanted a Psi Corruptor since Issue 6 so I will probably import either a FF/Psi Defeder or a Psi Baster of some kind.
Currently I am working on a Blue side FF/Psi I started in January L47 as of last night and rock solid. I was herding spawns (no PFF) for our Blasters and Spiner to eat up. Well protection and Psi blasting my kind of fun.
Pinnacle
Arch light L50 INV/SS
Psiberia L50 Kin/Psi
Screaming Mentallica L50 Sonic/MM
Infinity
Arc Voltinator L50 SS/Elec
Mind Fire Kinesis L50 Fire/Kin
Flaming Screamer L50 Fire/Sonic
And the thing that You seem to be having incorrect expectations about, JB, is the new content we're getting that will necessitate the use of the incarnate powers.
We've actually already received a hint of things to come with tip missions. I've seen two threads talking about an increase base tohit value for some of the critters in those tip missions. Guess what that means to those depending on the defense soft cap? Yup, chu ain't softcapped no more!
Tank mitigation may be overkill for 95% of the content we have now, but I'm placing my money on it not being overkill at all for a large amount of the new content. Think Vanguard on crack.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Because that's unacceptable, but clawed six-minute Pylon killers are A-OK.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
As much as I despise JB's constant whining about not being able to play Superman
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I think I already saw some bosses in tip missions having Purple Triangle protection every once a while and those are not elites. Just labeled as "boss". My Dominator was a bit surprised by that. Oh well, it was a bit more challenging but good stuff.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
And the thing that You seem to be having incorrect expectations about, JB, is the new content we're getting that will necessitate the use of the incarnate powers.
We've actually already received a hint of things to come with tip missions. I've seen two threads talking about an increase base tohit value for some of the critters in those tip missions. Guess what that means to those depending on the defense soft cap? Yup, chu ain't softcapped no more! Tank mitigation may be overkill for 95% of the content we have now, but I'm placing my money on it not being overkill at all for a large amount of the new content. Think Vanguard on crack. |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Yup. You know why? Because there's a bunch of AVs out there that can two shot me with impunity.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Because that's unacceptable, but clawed six-minute Pylon killers are A-OK.
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It's called game balance. Your inability to grasp such a pre-school concept is pathetic.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I haven't seen this and I've been farming the heck out of level 50 hero tips. A lot of the new content has EB's with the PToD though. I think EB Maelstrom has PToD, but every time I've faced him as a boss in the tip missions there were no triangles in sight.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
I think I already saw some bosses in tip missions having Purple Triangle protection every once a while and those are not elites. Just labeled as "boss". My Dominator was a bit surprised by that. Oh well, it was a bit more challenging but good stuff.
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I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
The deck is stacked against Tankers because in this game, more survivability is easy to build for from a variety of sources and doesn't really require a reciprocating loss of damage. Scrappers and Brutes are very close to the optimal survivability they'd ever need and can get more if they want.
Survivability has diminishing returns. Increasing survivability is increasingly less usefull and will aid you in a smaller and smaller number of situations. On the other hand, returns on more damage does not diminish nearly as sharply; increasing levels of damage will contintue to be usefull until you get to the point where you're one-shotting GMs. |
What I was trying to get at before, and I think what others are saying in clearer terms, that you don't seem to realize is this: Tankers aren't SUPPOSED to be rated by the same terms Brutes are.
Brutes are an excellent balance of damage, aggro management, and survivability. For Tanker's it's all slanted to the latter 2. Yes, that's great if a Brute can survive everything on the TF... especially if we have 8 Brutes/Scrappers doing the same. However, if a team layout calls for aggro management, which can be done by Tanking, the Tank will do better. Period. Their role is not diminished by lack of damage. That is not the role.
The second paragraph I quoted, I'm not sure if it was serious. Survivability is the only factor that does not diminish... Take the other extreme, a Blaster, just because her damage is tapped out doesn't mean they can go toe to toe with a Pylon. A Brute with massive AoE who doesn't hold aggro worth spit might soon find herself alone. Without survivability, she then finds herself faceplanted.
I actually don't quite understand the point of this vague idealogical debate. Tankers can (and do) what they're supposed to. So do Brutes and so do Scrappers. In my opinion the only AT that could seriously use a relevancy boost is Peacebringers. That's only because of the sick things Warshades can do. When a Warshade outsurvives and outdamages Scrappers or Brutes, do you consider them to be obsolete? Nonsense.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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oo... oooo wait.... i can do this. in my best J_B whiney voice, " But were supossed to be SUPERHEROES. we shouldn't be killed by anything and should be able to take down the biggest of baddies with ease." |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Yup. You know why? Because there's a bunch of AVs out there that can two shot me with impunity.
It's called game balance. Your inability to grasp such a pre-school concept is pathetic. |
ok, now that that's out of my system, i agree with Bill here. game balance is what it's about. infact, i think i may go write a comic where superman is killed by a giant green ball of snot that some random person sneezes on him, and batman is reduced to a sniveling coward when sailor moon shows up. why, cause that is how i need them to be in my story. that is how comics work. the way it works in video games is alot different then the comic books because it is all but impossible to determine the make up of any given toon, let alone team of toons, and have the npc's change up to offer a challenge.
i hope that sounds the way i meant it to.
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I know Vanguard.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
And the thing that You seem to be having incorrect expectations about, JB, is the new content we're getting that will necessitate the use of the incarnate powers.
We've actually already received a hint of things to come with tip missions. I've seen two threads talking about an increase base tohit value for some of the critters in those tip missions. Guess what that means to those depending on the defense soft cap? Yup, chu ain't softcapped no more! Tank mitigation may be overkill for 95% of the content we have now, but I'm placing my money on it not being overkill at all for a large amount of the new content. Think Vanguard on crack. |
You know who suffers on a TF or team mission with Vanguard-type enemies? Tankers.
Foes on taskforces that hit harder only screw over Tankers because Tankers are the ones getting hit. If the enemies break off or are taunt resistant, the Tanker gets chewed out for not eating the aggro and doing his job. If the enemies spam AoE, people cry for Reverse Bodyguard or some tripe.
Solo, foes who stack debuffs screw over ATs who take longer to defeat them because they get a chance to stack more. If you're Scrapper who can AoE a number of them before most get a shot off, you're in a much better situation. My IOed Tanker stuggled against Master Illusionists that my Scrapper could take down before they could summon all their pets and then phase repeatedly. Before he got Def debuff protection in the Invul buff, my "Invulnerable" Tanker got hacked to bits by Cimeroran swords while my Blaster could nuke the heck out of them in seconds unscratched.
Any new content they have up their sleeves is going to be the same.
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Well, IMHO that's an attribute Invulnerability should have had all along. And which Force Field STILL needs. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Before he got Def debuff protection in the Invul buff, my "Invulnerable" Tanker got hacked to bits by Cimeroran swords while my Blaster could nuke the heck out of them in seconds unscratched.
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Let's face it, Defense has been a broken mechanic the devs have been slapping band aids on since this game was released. Combination Typed and Positional vectors, Def Debuff, and Elusivity have all been attempts to fix it.
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No, it's not balanced one bit.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
It's called game balance.
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If it was balanced, Scapppers wouldn't be able to obtain the survivability needed to solo an AV, nor would Tankers be able to muster the damage needed to.
Scrappers being able to muster the damage AND survivability to solo AVs, and (provided there's even Tankers capable of soloing AVs at all) doing it faster than a Tanker isn't balanced. It favours the Scrapper completely.
Bill, you're the biggest hypocrite on these boards. You got your cake and ate it too, and you mock anyone who asks the devs for some.
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Learn to kill the dark servant as soon as he spawns. I use SR. Don't talk to me about Master Ills hurting your Invul tank with his massive HP backing him up when their pets have a base 75% chance to hit and several of their attacks lack a positional component at all. You'll get no sympathy.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I know Vanguard.
You know who suffers on a TF or team mission with Vanguard-type enemies? Tankers. Foes on taskforces that hit harder only screw over Tankers because Tankers are the ones getting hit. If the enemies break off or are taunt resistant, the Tanker gets chewed out for not eating the aggro and doing his job. If the enemies spam AoE, people cry for Reverse Bodyguard or some tripe. Solo, foes who stack debuffs screw over ATs who take longer to defeat them because they get a chance to stack more. If you're Scrapper who can AoE a number of them before most get a shot off, you're in a much better situation. My IOed Tanker stuggled against Master Illusionists that my Scrapper could take down before they could summon all their pets and then phase repeatedly. Before he got Def debuff protection in the Invul buff, my "Invulnerable" Tanker got hacked to bits by Cimeroran swords while my Blaster could nuke the heck out of them in seconds unscratched. Any new content they have up their sleeves is going to be the same. . |
And griping about all the pain you get when on a team? Either fix that with team buffs or if there are none taunt less. Teams mean support. If you're not getting that support, respond appropriately.
Learn to play. Understand game balance. This is not rocket surgery. Tanks do not deserve more damage output anymore than scrappers deserve higher mitigation caps.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Oh looky, one again when faced with facts, JB collapses into stupidity. There are tanks soloing pylons. There are also tanks managing multiple RWZ challenge spawns at once. There are tanks out there that understand game balance and aren't asking to be the best of the best of the best at everything because they understand it.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
No, it's not balanced one bit.
If it was balanced, Scapppers wouldn't be able to obtain the survivability needed to solo an AV, nor would Tankers be able to muster the damage needed to. Scrappers being able to muster the damage AND survivability to solo AVs, and (provided there's even Tankers capable of soloing AVs at all) doing it faster than a Tanker isn't balanced. It favours the Scrapper completely. Bill, you're the biggest hypocrite on these boards. You got your cake and ate it too, and you mock anyone who asks the devs for some. . |
Way to ignore my statement about the AVs that have and can two shot my scrapper. Makes your hypocrite statement that much more laughable.
Why the mods haven't FOLLOWED THEIR OWN DAMN RULES and banned you for your constant LOBBYING to have tanks turned into Galactus is beyond my ability to understand.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I didn't talk about my Invul Tanker fighting MIs at all. Learn to read.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
L I use SR. Don't talk to me about Master Ills hurting your Invul tank with his massive HP backing him up when their pets have a base 75% chance to hit and several of their attacks lack a positional component at all.
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| And griping about all the pain you get when on a team? Either fix that with team buffs or if there are none taunt less. |
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| Learn to play. |
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| Tanks do not deserve more damage output anymore than scrappers deserve higher mitigation caps. |
The reason I have no opposite number on the Scrapper forums demanding higher mitigation caps for Scrappers is because they have as much as they'll ever want. When you're already optimal (or OP), you don't fight for anything.
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Obsolete is too strong a word. I see less "new" tankers and defenders in the new zone but they still exist! Hell, I am playing a stalker now and I see quite a few stalkers out there, or maybe I just pay more attention to other stalkers. :P
We don't have the hard data to prove but just base on my pure observation, I see less Tanker and Defender and it is not saying that I don't like them. I just see LESS of them and that's all.
I've seen more Stalkers than Tanker/Defender.
Do we really need to turn this into Brute VS Tanker and Defender VS Corruptor debate?
I think maybe the dev is interested in seeing which ATs are created less and/or abandoned quicker. I bet Stalker has the highest abandon rate!
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.