How can there be a Praetorian Infernal?

Shadow State · 09-22-2010 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warkupo

There is no reason Infernal Earth, the Dimension where Infernal, or K'Varr D'Shall, hails from does not have dimensions that are very similiar to it in the same fashion as Primal and Praetoria were until very recently.

There's just as much reason to think that it has those alternates as to think it doesn't, the lore hasn't said whether CoH multiverse has finite or infinite variations.

Flarstux · 09-23-2010 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow State

There's just as much reason to think that it has those alternates as to think it doesn't, the lore hasn't said whether CoH multiverse has finite or infinite variations.

Here's something that will keep you up late and/or disturb your sleeping habits: are there shrimp in Praetoria?

Samuel_Tow · 09-23-2010 03:46 AM

To my mind, the problem arises from viewing the multiverse as a linear structure, where all alternate Earths exist in a single instance, i.e. there is only one Primal Earth and anything that's not in this particular universe is not Primal Earth.

By contrast, describing the multiverse as a two-dimensional structure (or three-, four- and on multi-dimensional structure) allows us to make "variants within variants," as it were. We don't have just one Primal Earth universe, we have an infinite number of Primal Earth universes, each practically identical and different only in trivial ways, such as some guy's name being Bobby instead or Robert or house cats having green fur.

Why bother writing such opaque fiction? Because it means you can draw an infinite amount of the same character from the same universe without actually impacting THIS particular universe that we inhabit. To an outside observer, it doesn't really matter. If character came from Warrior Earth and went to Praetoria, it doesn't matter which instance of the dimensions in question took part in the transfer, since you can trace this transfer to both origins. However, when a character ostensibly from Primal Earth shows up in, say, Werewolf Earth, though this may be a character we know, the actual character may still be on Earth, because this one we meet there came from Primal Earth++.

This could, in theory, explain Infernal. There are an infinite number of "Infernal Earth" dimensions out there, all of them identical. We got an Infernal from one, Praetoria got an Infernal from another, and if we travel to still another "Infernal Earth," we'll probably find Infernal still there with good probability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

AzureSkyCiel · 09-23-2010 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow

To my mind, the problem arises from viewing the multiverse as a linear structure, where all alternate Earths exist in a single instance, i.e. there is only one Primal Earth and anything that's not in this particular universe is not Primal Earth.

By contrast, describing the multiverse as a two-dimensional structure (or three-, four- and on multi-dimensional structure) allows us to make "variants within variants," as it were. We don't have just one Primal Earth universe, we have an infinite number of Primal Earth universes, each practically identical and different only in trivial ways, such as some guy's name being Bobby instead or Robert or house cats having green fur.

And funny enough, all the different servers are called: "Shards" as though referencing in-game that the different servers are canon and just alternate shards of the same universe.

Though personally I like the idea that Praet Infernal is actually Prime Infernal's lost friend since that kind of ties up and opens up a new dimension of a story.

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow

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TrueMetal · 09-23-2010 04:01 AM

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Originally Posted by Brynstar

While playing today one of the game tips on the load screen was talking about Infernal being from an alternate dimension where they bind demons ect ect, and it got me thinking. If Infernal isn't from Primal Earth how can there be a Praetorian version of him?

The canon is that he comes to Primal Earth during a ceremony gone wrong and Numina is helping him look for a being that is a combination of his best friend and a demon lord. While the praetorian version comes to their world and becomes power hungry under the influence of Diabolique.

How can a being from an alternate world end up in both dimensions as 2 individual beings? It wouldn't make any sense for there to be Praetorian Rikti so why is there a Praetorian Infernal?

The canon in this game is a big convoluted mess that contradicts itself every other word. A bit like real comic books. It annoys me to no end and it's why I don't read comic books (not the American superhero version anway.)

@True Metal
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Obscure Blade · 09-23-2010 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel

And funny enough, all the different servers are called: "Shards" as though referencing in-game that the different servers are canon and just alternate shards of the same universe.

I always assumed that WAS canon.

"Shard" is an old MMORPG term by the way, well predating CoX, and as I recall originally was based on the idea of servers as different "alternate universes". So I assume it is the same here.

Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth

Targoth · 09-23-2010 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zikar

No, they could be Rikti from an alternate dimension to the Rikti we know. Alternate dimensions allow for more than one dimension filled with Rikti, just like there is more than one dimension filled with humans.

Of course, Rikti are modified humans not aliens.
Not all of them are from another dimension.
Some of the Ritki have managed to regain their human identities and / or defect to Vanguard.

Techbot Alpha · 09-23-2010 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srmalloy

There's no reason why there can't be alternate dimensions 'close' enough to the Rikti that they are for all intents and purposes identical to 'our' Rikti, or a demonic dimension almost indistinguishable from our Infernal's home dimension, where he escaped to Praetoria instead of Primal Earth.

...I....wait, what?
This just makes my brain hurt.

Seriously, there are no 'Our Rikti' and 'Their Rikti'

I'll use one of my own characters as an example, because I was trying to work out wether a Praetorian version of him would actually exist. The answer was yes, because;

1) He's from the same universe/dimension as Primal Earth. He's a space traveler, not a dimension hopper. While I chose not to have a Praetorian version, due to that version never crash landing on Earth, there is still room for another one in that universe.

2) Had he come from another Dimension, say 'Tech Earth', akin to 'Rikti Earth' or 'Preatorian Earth', then there would have been no question of it. That would require there being two actual versions of him, which there aren't.

Basically, there are;
-Primal Earth (Our Earth) Dimension/Universe
-Rikti Earth
-Praetorian Earth
-5th Column Earth
-Council Earth
-Shadow Earth (where Requiem won)
-Nemesis Earth (where Nemesis won)
-Infernals Dimension
-Unlisted others, multiples of

Now, you can have multiple versions of characters, but you can only have a maximum of one from each dimension, if that. For example, Marcus Cole could exist on any Earth. We've seen that is possible;
-Primal = Statesman
-Praetoria = Tyrant
-5th = Reichsman

Heck, there could even be a Rikti Marcus Cole. It could even be;
-Rikti = Hro' Dtohz

Ergo, however, the cannot be 'their' Rikti. It would be the same Rikti. It would be Rikti Earth invading Praetorian Earth. In the same way that Rikti Earth invaded Primal Earth. Not Rikti Earth2 invading Praetoria.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

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Techbot Alpha · 09-23-2010 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow

This could, in theory, explain Infernal. There are an infinite number of "Infernal Earth" dimensions out there, all of them identical. We got an Infernal from one, Praetoria got an Infernal from another, and if we travel to still another "Infernal Earth," we'll probably find Infernal still there with good probability.

...
Gods-freaking-damnit, someone get Manticore in here, stat! This is causing my Cerebral Core to glitch out...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Flarstux · 09-23-2010 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha

Now, you can have multiple versions of characters, but you can only have a maximum of one from each dimension, if that. For example, Marcus Cole could exist on any Earth. We've seen that is possible;
-Primal = Statesman
-Praetoria = Tyrant
-5th = Reichsman

-Cabbage = Cole's Law

CommunistPenguin · 09-23-2010 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obscure Blade

I always assumed that WAS canon.

"Shard" is an old MMORPG term by the way, well predating CoX, and as I recall originally was based on the idea of servers as different "alternate universes". So I assume it is the same here.

Doesnt shard come from ultima online? I think i recall reading that the opening cutscene had some villan smashing reality or a reality gem or something and lots of differnt shards occuring as a result... or something like that

Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.

Techbot Alpha · 09-23-2010 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flarstux

-Cabbage = Cole's Law

True. But shush

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Ironik · 09-23-2010 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha

Ergo, however, the cannot be 'their' Rikti. It would be the same Rikti. It would be Rikti Earth invading Praetorian Earth. In the same way that Rikti Earth invaded Primal Earth. Not Rikti Earth2 invading Praetoria.

When speaking of multiple universes, "have to be" is a nonsensical phrase, just as "can not be." It *might* be the same Rikti, it *might* different but essentially identical Rikti.

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Twisted Toon · 09-23-2010 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynical_Gamer

Aside from being boring and messy. I like the idea of unique parallel universes rather than infinite variations of each universe. Otherwise your multi-verse starts on the slope towards the convoluted mess that was pre-Crisis DC.

Which could explain "The Coming Storm"

Although, I doubt it.

There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

Techbot Alpha · 09-23-2010 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironik

When speaking of multiple universes, "have to be" is a nonsensical phrase, just as "can not be." It *might* be the same Rikti, it *might* different but essentially identical Rikti.

And that is the point where all sense, logic and brain power melts into an giant conflagaration.
And the universe divides by 0.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Obscure Blade · 09-23-2010 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CommunistPenguin

Doesnt shard come from ultima online? I think i recall reading that the opening cutscene had some villan smashing reality or a reality gem or something and lots of differnt shards occuring as a result... or something like that

That's what I understand. <googles> Here's a claim that that's where the term originated.

Quote:

The usage originated with the Ultima Online story, where each of the game's servers were said to be different images of the world, trapped in the shattered shards of a mystic gem (originally conceived in 1980 for Ultima I, this event is mentioned many times throughout the Ultima series).

Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth

Fleeting Whisper · 09-23-2010 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel

And funny enough, all the different servers are called: "Shards" as though referencing in-game that the different servers are canon and just alternate shards of the same universe.

Shards of Alara is rotating out of Standard next week!

On the other hand, it means Nicol Bolas is going away for a while.
[/mtg nerd]

http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

Warkupo · 09-23-2010 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow State

There's just as much reason to think that it has those alternates as to think it doesn't, the lore hasn't said whether CoH multiverse has finite or infinite variations.

Well, of course. I don't think the GAME even knows if the dimensions are finite or infinite. I imagine that's one of the things Portal Corps is interested in figuring out.

Still, given that Praetoria Earth and Primal Earth had nearly the same history until very recently I'd say the probability that there are multiple "versions" of Infernal Earth is more than unlikely.

Samuel_Tow · 09-24-2010 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha

...
Gods-freaking-damnit, someone get Manticore in here, stat! This is causing my Cerebral Core to glitch out...

Algebra (among others) can describe some pretty interesting things that may not always be physically demonstrable. The easiest of these is four-dimensional space. Well, OK, not four-dimensional space. That you can actually describe in practice by mapping the fourth dimension to time and playing the four-dimensional space like a movie.

Here's where it gets fun - you can describe a five-dimensional space and map the "extra" two dimension to what I like to call "planar time." Imagine a Medial Player movie with that time slider you can move left and right. Now instead of a linear slider, you have a "dot" you can move anywhere in a 2D plane, so instead of having your time code look like "2m30s," it instead looks like "2m30s by 3m7s." A 60 second movie, therefore, would give you 60x60x24 unique frames, as well as no clear "path" through the movie. How this translates into something you can see and feel is... Abstract, to say the least.

That's why I like to describe "a five-dimensional multiverse" in three separate stages - three physical dimensions, one "duplicate" dimension and one "divergence" dimension. That's as opposed to trying to describe them all at the same time.

Again, you have the "highest order" dimension, which is the divergence dimension, which tells you which unique universe you're actually in. Those would be the one called "Epsilon Tau 893485" or such. The next duplicate dimension would represent which "identical instance" of that particular universe you're talking about, which what I assume the numbers at the end of Epsilon Tau 893485 would represent. Once you have a universe and a specific instance of that universe pinned down, you then start tracking down three-dimensional coordinates in that specific universe. Because that's rather very complicated to define in a static manner within a constant-motion universe with no static origin, I won't bother describing it.

And that's just linear algebra, to boot. I'll be teaching algebra and geometry to students in a couple of weeks, and I laughed my *** off when I saw the book start up with mathematical ring theory. If we go with general algebra, the weird crap you can define in terms of algebraic spaces is boundless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Techbot Alpha · 09-24-2010 04:01 AM

Sam...you need to know something...

I Hate Maths!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Dollymistress · 09-24-2010 04:07 AM

You really wanna know? Cos the answer's easy.

See, you're "GOOD" Infernal. And I'm "BAAAD" Infernal.

You're goody little two shoes, goody little two shoes, goody little two shoes, goody little TWO shoes, goody little two shoes, goody little two shoes, goody little two shoes, goody little *TWO* shoes, goody little

***BLAM***

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Tee Hee!

Techbot Alpha · 09-24-2010 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dollymistress

-redacted-

See my picture above >_>

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Dollymistress · 09-24-2010 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha

Sam...you need to know something...

I Hate Maths!

Ronnie O'Sullivan comes to the table. Facing an impossible snooker, he grabs the Ballistic Rest...

The Widow's Dark Hand - leader of Faux Pas
Champion Server
Tee Hee!

Chad Gulzow-Man · 09-24-2010 10:48 AM

QR to the OP:
My main character is from a dimension other than Paragon/Primal Earth (whichever you prefer to call it). He arrived in Paragon by accident, but saw how in need of help it was and worked along side the other heroes to keep the city safe, all while working with Portal Corp to try and find a way back home.

The Paragon version of him is a lowly computer tech for one of Portal Corp's business offices. He thinks the extradimensional hero version of himself is pretty much a doofus. (The hero version thinks the same about him.)

The version of him that "comes from" Praetoria is also not originally of that dimension--he never existed there, because his parents were presumably killed in the Hamidon Wars before he was born. In an interesting twist that ties in to the topic of the thread, the one that accidentally ended up in Praetoria crossed paths with the Praetorian Infernal, who tortured him and stripped his soul away, making him little more than a puppet.

-----

And to all the people discussing the possibility of alternate Rikti Earths using the whole multiple Statesmen argument, don't give the developers too many ideas... I don't want to fight a Rikti M'rkus Coh'l anytime soon.

Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
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-----

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Originally Posted by Nethergoat

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Zombieluvr · 09-24-2010 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brynstar

There aren't Primal Earth Rikti or Praetorian Earth Rikti, just Rikti.

There could be "Earth One" Rikti and "Earth Two" Rikti, however, where the E1R were contacted by Nemesis from Primal Earth and ended up invading, and E2R were never contacted by Nemesis but perhaps were in some other way contacted by Praetorian Earth people and invaded (or were invaded by Praetorian Earth).

There's no real reason there couldn't be more than one Rikti Earth out there, just as there is Primal Earth, Praetorian Earth, and Reichsman Earth (whatever it's called). Similarly, there's no reason there can't be more than one Infernal Dimension.