How can there be a Praetorian Infernal?
By
AzureSkyCiel,
Posted on: 2010-09-22 10:45 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Not really since as each returned the dimension would split into one where he returned and one where he hadn't, until each had there own separate home dimension plus one where he still hasn't returned.
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Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Which could be awkward when they all try to go back to the same home dimension...
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Why is anyone assuming that there has to be only one dimension where demons come from? Or Rikti?
There's likely hundreds, if not thousands of parallel Earths where a demon named Infernal was accidentally transported there and then helped by a super named Numina. Each incident was likely slightly different in some small way. Those differences get progressively bigger until you get the situation that happened on Praetorian Earth. It's like a spectrum, going from red to blue, by tiny increments.
So....much....mind...r@pe...!!
Still, this makes the most sense to me;
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Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
I think Praetorian Infernal IS Prime Infernal's friend, they just haven't gotten around to writing that story out yet.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Invalid comparison. The Rikti invaded Primal Earth because Nemesis ticked them off (in canon, the First Rikti War was in 2002). In Praetoria, Gerhardt Eisenstadt died of old age over a hundred years ago: without becoming the Prussian Prince of Automatons, without becoming Emperor of Americas, long before Emperor Cole was even born, and certainly before having the opportunity to tick off extradimensional invaders..
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Originally Posted by Brynstar
If you're going to say "when Infernal came to Preatorian Earth...." it should also be assumed that "When the Rikti invaded praetorian earth.......".
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Invalid comparison. The Rikti invaded Primal Earth because Nemesis ticked them off (in canon, the First Rikti War was in 2002). In Praetoria, Gerhardt Eisenstadt died of old age over a hundred years ago: without becoming the Prussian Prince of Automatons, without becoming Emperor of Americas, long before Emperor Cole was even born, and certainly before having the opportunity to tick off extradimensional invaders..
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Rikti Earth --Invasion--> Primal Earth<--Invasion--Praetorian Earth
Rikti Earth <--No Invasion-->Praetorian Earth
Rikti, Primal and Praetorian Earth are all seperate dimensions. In theory, it would be possible for the Rikti to also invade Praetoria, or vice versa. However, it hasn't happened.
Hoever;
Infernal Earth--Infernal-->Primal Earth --No Infernal--> Praetorian Earth
By all accounts of the Canon, there is only one Lilitu, one Infernal, as they are both from another dimension. The 'world where demon binding is common practice'. Ergo, there cannot be a Praetorian Infernal, and I would be very surprised if he hadn't been retconned out to make up for this conflict and contradiction. As, let's face it, old Praetoria was a shoddy 'evil twin' dimension when Jack built it.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Except that according to one of the Devs (Positron I think) the new Praetorian arcs are squeals to, rather then retcons of, the old arcs which are still considered canon.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Ergo, there cannot be a Praetorian Infernal, and I would be very surprised if he hadn't been retconned out to make up for this conflict and contradiction. As, let's face it, old Praetoria was a shoddy 'evil twin' dimension when Jack built it.
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You have to learn to think five dimensionally.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Rikti Earth --Invasion--> Primal Earth<--Invasion--Praetorian Earth
Rikti Earth <--No Invasion-->Praetorian Earth Rikti, Primal and Praetorian Earth are all seperate dimensions. In theory, it would be possible for the Rikti to also invade Praetoria, or vice versa. However, it hasn't happened. Hoever; Infernal Earth--Infernal-->Primal Earth --No Infernal--> Praetorian Earth |
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Devs say lots of things. Until it's down in the game, I wouldn't consider it canon. Especially since we're dealing with a comic book universe, where canon is pretty flimsy to begin with.
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Originally Posted by Shadow State
Except that according to one of the Devs (Positron I think) the new Praetorian arcs are squeals to, rather then retcons of, the old arcs which are still considered canon.
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That's correct - he said they're still canon - which causes all kinds of problems for the "shades of gray" idea |
Originally Posted by Shadow State
Except that according to one of the Devs (Positron I think) the new Praetorian arcs are squeals to, rather then retcons of, the old arcs which are still considered canon.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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The thing is, they went out of their way to say they were canon, not just retcons, even though they seem more like retcons.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Devs say lots of things. Until it's down in the game, I wouldn't consider it canon. Especially since we're dealing with a comic book universe, where canon is pretty flimsy to begin with.
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And they haven't put anything in the new versions that would contradict the old ones, even though Praetoria 1.0 is so different from Praetoria 2.0.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I consider the original arcs to be "sort of canon". Like the Stargate movie. It's "sort of" canon to the TV series, in that something similar clearly happened, but not exactly.
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He needs to go back and revisit that stance.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's correct - he said they're still canon - which causes all kinds of problems for the "shades of gray" idea
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They make less sense as sequels and more as retcons.
-Why would Marauder, or ANY of the Praetors, call Cole 'Tyrant' in the original arcs? The entire merit system in Praetoria revolves around how you look to others; to your boss and to the public, and using the Emperor's hated slur, even in jest by his top men, wouldn't fly.
-Why would they all be 'for teh evuls' then in the old arcs and suddenly change personalities?
-Why would events play out more or less the same with the similar story beats and almost the same sequence of maps visited?
With some minor dialogue changes, the new arcs would work as retcons, but they're too close to the old arcs to be sequels. Plus, the old arcs now contradict too much of what we know about Praetoria and no longer make enough sense to still be hard canon.
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That's something interesting about Praetoria 2.0 - although it's fleshed out the AVs and given them motivations, it's actually made them even more evil - in Praetoria 1.0, they were pretty much just generic villains, but GR has turned them into total monsters.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
-Why would they all be 'for teh evuls' then in the old arcs and suddenly change personalities?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Now that you mention it, I vaguely recall something like this coming up in Durakken's "Lore" thread, where someone said there is only one Shadow Shard and only one Underworld, but multiple Earths. (I'm envisioning it as a building with three floors: the basement is the Underworld, the attic is the Shadow Shard and the second floor has multiple rooms, each room being a different Earth.) If that's indeed the case, then BrynStar's objection is valid, because Infernal is unique and he can't both be on Primal Earth and Praetorian Earth at the same time. Unlike everyone else, that would mean there is only one of him in all the multiple universes.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
By all accounts of the Canon, there is only one Lilitu, one Infernal, as they are both from another dimension. The 'world where demon binding is common practice'. Ergo, there cannot be a Praetorian Infernal, and I would be very surprised if he hadn't been retconned out to make up for this conflict and contradiction. As, let's face it, old Praetoria was a shoddy 'evil twin' dimension when Jack built it.
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As an aside, everyone saying "multiple dimensions" is confusing, because there *are* multiple dimensions: 3rd dimension, fourth dimension, etc. The proper terminology is "multiple universes" or "parallel universes."
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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I wont even call it a Crime Syndicate(then) vs Justice Lords(now) kind of shift. The Crime Syndicate had goals, methods; they're super powered organized crime on a world scale.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's something interesting about Praetoria 2.0 - although it's fleshed out the AVs and given them motivations, it's actually made them even more evil - in Praetoria 1.0, they were pretty much just generic villains, but GR has turned them into total monsters.
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But we had Tyrant sitting on a throne loarding over a smoking ruin of a world with zombies for subjects. That's evil for evil's sake; ie stupid.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...aysChaoticEvil
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForTheEvulz
Praetoria 2.0 was more of a shift to this for the most part:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../PresidentEvil
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulEvil
All the old arc stuff was written for the first set of tropes, and the new stuff is distinctly different and thus doesn't really fit anymore IMO.
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That's always how I've seen the cosmology. Primal Earth has an attic with the Shard, but maybe other universes don't. Maybe some do, but their attic is decorated and nice while Primal's just has piles of angry eyeballs and the cast of 'Cocoon: The Return'.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
Now that you mention it, I vaguely recall something like this coming up in Durakken's "Lore" thread, where someone said there is only one Shadow Shard and only one Underworld, but multiple Earths. (I'm envisioning it as a building with three floors: the basement is the Underworld, the attic is the Shadow Shard and the second floor has multiple rooms, each room being a different Earth.)
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1)According to the rules of canon laid out by Manticore in his lore thread official Dev posts carry the same weight as in game information.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Devs say lots of things. Until it's down in the game, I wouldn't consider it canon. Especially since we're dealing with a comic book universe, where canon is pretty flimsy to begin with.
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2)Until you can find anything, in game or out, which even hints at an arc ceasing to be canon when it's moved to Ouroboros, you haven't got a leg to stand on.
Don't get me wrong, I think its stupid to treat the new arcs as sequels rather then retcons, but we don't get to decide what is or isn't canon.
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Pfft. I constantly declare the Star Wars prequels to be non-canon. I can declare whatever I want. |
Originally Posted by Shadow State
Don't get me wrong, I think its stupid to treat the new arcs as sequels rather then retcons, but we don't get to decide what is or isn't canon.
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Don't blame us, science fiction has been confusing the use of dimensions for years.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
As an aside, everyone saying "multiple dimensions" is confusing, because there *are* multiple dimensions: 3rd dimension, fourth dimension, etc. The proper terminology is "multiple universes" or "parallel universes."
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Ourosboros is all about changing history; that seems to qualify.|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
2)Until you can find anything, in game or out, which even hints at an arc ceasing to be canon when it's moved to Ouroboros, you haven't got a leg to stand on.
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As for the old Praetoria arcs, it isn't necessary to go as far as calling the new Praetoria a retcon. Rather than calling them a "misinterpretation", the old arcs make much more sense if regarded as an alternate version of the new Praetoria, one where they went even farther to the dark side. An "alternate, alternate universe", to quote Jack O'Neil of Stargate.
If I were in charge of canon, that's the route I'd go; and I'd maybe have some minor NPCs make in game comments about it. "Remember that alternate variant of Praetoria the higher ups had us seal off? 'Psycho-Praetoria' they were calling it."
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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There's no reason why there can't be alternate dimensions 'close' enough to the Rikti that they are for all intents and purposes identical to 'our' Rikti, or a demonic dimension almost indistinguishable from our Infernal's home dimension, where he escaped to Praetoria instead of Primal Earth.
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Originally Posted by Brynstar
I'm not questioning the possibilities merely the canon they have put out. Rikti are just "Rikti" they aren't native of Primal Earth they came here because Nemesis tricked them into attacking us, so if Rikti were on Praetorian Earth they would be the same Rikti. There aren't Primal Earth Rikti or Praetorian Earth Rikti, just Rikti. If they wanna stick to that canon then there shouldnt be a Primal Infernal and a Praetorian Infernal, since he isn't a native to either dimension.
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"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
There is no reason Infernal Earth, the Dimension where Infernal, or K'Varr D'Shall, hails from does not have dimensions that are very similiar to it in the same fashion as Primal and Praetoria were until very recently.
It is entirely likely that the "Praetorian" version of Infernal came from a similiar, yet entirely separate, Dimension and then traveled to Praetoria. "Praetorian" Infernal may have even called HIS home Dimension Infernal Earth, unaware that "Primal" Infernal was also calling HIS home Dimension by the same name.
Essentially what I'm saying is there are two Infernal Earth's, both similiar but not the same, which both had a K'Varr D'Shall who is then transported to either Primal Earth or Praetorian Earth.
The other, more FUN, idea stems off the concept that the multiverse is created whenever an individual has the option of doing something even slightly different than what they actually do. The multiverse would therefor be larger than the scope of human understanding. It doesn't just duplicate itself, it multicates, which isn't even a word (in this dimension.)
When a person travels through dimensions, the "what-if" factor of the multiverse would then send him to every single OTHER dimension than the one he actually wanted to GO too. This would account for the "How did we get here, weren't we going to X?" Yes, one of you got to X, but an infinite number of you also went everywhere else as well. This would make it possible for the Infernal in Primal Earth and the Infernal in Praetorian Earth to actually be the same person.
Throw in Time Travel and it just gets more hazy.
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Aside from being boring and messy. I like the idea of unique parallel universes rather than infinite variations of each universe. Otherwise your multi-verse starts on the slope towards the convoluted mess that was pre-Crisis DC.
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Originally Posted by srmalloy
There's no reason why there can't be alternate dimensions 'close' enough to the Rikti that they are for all intents and purposes identical to 'our' Rikti, or a demonic dimension almost indistinguishable from our Infernal's home dimension, where he escaped to Praetoria instead of Primal Earth.
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Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
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Actually it isn't. Outside of the missions the menders themselves give us, we don't change history, that's why our relationships with contacts aren't effected by what we do in Ouroboros. And even if we did change history, that has absolutely no baring on whether or not the events are themselves canon, it only effects which characters can be said to have participate in the events.
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Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Ourosboros is all about changing history; that seems to qualify.
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One solution: ask Lilitu how many kids she had.
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