Emperor Cole at the end of the Power Loyalist Arc...
By
AnElfCalledMack,
Posted on: 2010-09-20 14:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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My samurai character highly resents that remark.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Any system based on power being in the hands of someone because of who their ancestors were rather than because the people chose them is not only inherently stupid - it's inherently wrong too
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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It's like arguing with a five year old.
I've been pretty clear where my sympathies rest. I'm no great fan of either faction, because even the moderates of those factions allow the extremists to thrive.
However, by personal philosophy, I tend more towards the Resistance. Having avidly read a great many of the loyalist/resistance debates since GR, I find myself looking towards the extremists in my own faction and cringing in response.
So to the extent that I consider myself an out-of-game member of the Resistance (a Forum Warden, if you will), I wish to distance myself from those who can only be identified with Forum Crusaders. Our distaste for the regime may be similar, but that's where the likeness ends.
Fallacies of relevance do not support our cause. And simply IGNORING compelling arguments is just embarrassing. Some of these posts are every bit as cringe-worthy as Ricochet's nadsat speak.
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
Boy, this thread got tackled by GG and then whacked right out of the stadium.
It should probably just all stop here, but I have a feeling it's not going to.
Username: @Royal
The Alien Tyrant, 357388: Stop the reign of an evil emperor!
Spawning Chaos, 469020: Form an army of Freaks, win the Freaklympics!
The Restarian Front, 363257: Stop the invasion of an alien fleet from another galaxy!
GG doesn't let go.
I was watching the old Superfriends show from the early 70's (the original with Wendy and Marvin) and a quote from one of the villains reminded me of EG and GG.
Paraphrasing - "It's a great responsibility knowing what's best for everyone."
I really love that one of the villains said it.
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I'm guessing that Golden Girl is trying to show the insanity of Cole's regime by taking the opposite extreme? Just a guess though =3|
Originally Posted by Jetpack
GG doesn't let go.
I was watching the old Superfriends show from the early 70's (the original with Wendy and Marvin) and a quote from one of the villains reminded me of EG and GG. Paraphrasing - "It's a great responsibility knowing what's best for everyone." I really love that one of the villains said it. |
On another note, entire pages of this debate have sprouted up since my post last night, and no one has offered answer my question. =(
"There's villainy ... and then there's supervillainy. The difference is performance."
-Doc_Reverend
this thread is painful.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
edit: Ok the post was rather rude, and political to boot. GG, whether you responded to this or not, I am sorry. I will be reporting my post to a mod later on. I may not like what you say, but that gives me no right to say anything you may view as an insult.
From every arc I've done (all but the Crusader ones) and every badge I've grabbed, Toxa: No. There is nothing that shows the water -is- drugged, except for a bit of graffiti spray painted on the wall. However that slogan is so ubiquitous that, to me, it's pretty much lost all meaning.
I've already explained why the Water supply -shouldn't- be drugged, and I think that's about all anyone can do. But through strange comic book "Logic" maybe the Cops and Cole, and Everyone in any position of power are somehow immune to the drug. Though that seems like a tacked on "Oh! Well umm..... Neener Neener!" explanation.
Occam's Razor says: nope. The water isn't drugged.
-Rachel-
I'm only going to deal with a few things here as I don't have time to address the seventy posts of stupid this thread attracted in the last eight hours. (The short answer is that the easy way to tell if Steampunkette is wrong is to see if her (virtual) lips are moving.)
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Yes, the State did create the Ghouls. Please read the entire article and not just the parts you like:| The State did not create the Ghouls. |
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| He did this to himself, but it was Neuron who used the serum and its later iterations upon countless innocent people. |
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| The arc even indicates that the Ghouls created after Vasilikos aren't even innocent victims - they're clones. |
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| I went looking through some badges and souvenirs from Praetoria, and I couldn't find anything that absolutely confirms the presence of sedatives/drugs in Enriche. Everything I've read (in-game) so far has been inconclusive. Did I miss something? |
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| It's unsettling that some people on this forum have taken the Resistance vs. Loyalist thing as personal war to be carried out of the game and into the forum space, and into every Going Rogue thread, regardless of the topic. Personally, I've played all four flavors and I've enjoyed each one. |
What gets me about these threads is that a lot of people seem to be ready to throw their freedom away for a Twinkie. If the pro-fascist attitudes evinced by people like Eiko-Chan, Steampunkette and BenRGamer are at all prevalent among young people today we're in deep trouble.
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| I can only speak for myself, but I think it's the failure to deliver the moral ambiguity that the concept called for with a title like "Shades of Gray". |
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| To that extent, I also -want- to like Cole. I liked his speech, and I can see his point that people are bunch of violent monkeys that need to be babysat, at least until they can evolve out of their diapers. |
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| The best rationale I could come up with was that Responsible Loyalists, like Kang, are sort of like good cops caught in an extraordinarily bad situation. They're doing their best to protect people, and maybe they see the ugly truth, but they're just not strong enough to stand up against Cole. And I can't fault them for that. At least no more than you could fault a cop in Iraq many years ago for not calling out Saddam and his sons. |
But there's no way I'd call him a hero.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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I haven't found their arguments to really suggest they'll throw their freedom away for table scraps. What I find their arguments to suggest is that they'll sacrifice some of their freedom from protection from giant monsters and fanatical terrorists. And this is the basis of government in general: you agree that certain things you are not free to do, and the government agrees to keep you from getting killed as best it can. We DO see, throughout the Responsibility AND Power arc, that most of what the Loyalists do involves protecting people from the Resistance, the Destroyers, and the Syndicate, and it's just a small subset of Loyalists that are actively working to keep the Destroyers effective.|
Originally Posted by Venture
What gets me about these threads is that a lot of people seem to be ready to throw their freedom away for a Twinkie. If the pro-fascist attitudes evinced by people like Eiko-Chan, Steampunkette and BenRGamer are at all prevalent among young people today we're in deep trouble.
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On top of that, most of Steampunkette's arguments at this point don't seem indicative of Steampunkette's beliefs so much as they show that she doesn't realize that Golden Girl isn't actually trying to debate (In America!) and that she's trying to make Golden Girl understand that while fascism is bad, it's not the worst thing that could ever happen to humanity (which would be total extinction).
And as an aside, an important note about the Ghouls.
The original Ghouls were VOLUNTEERS for a Super Soldier program that went wrong. This isn't an instance of the government kidnapping people, this isn't even an instance of the government lying to people. This is the government trying to improve its soldiers and those soldiers going crazy, breaking free, and killing people. While the government hasn't admitted to its part in this, it is trying to clean up the mess and find out what went wrong, and the Ghoul program doesn't seem to be intentional misuse of people, as far as I can tell. Contrast with the Destroyers which the government doesn't really want stopped and is using for their own benefit.
As to the question of what it's like outside the war walls? I'm thinking Fallout 3, but with more Devouring Earth and less Nuka-Cola. I wouldn't be surprised if there were whole colonies of raiders and slavers, and towns built in old ships. Also, the Antagonizer and the Mechanist aren't seen as crazy, they're seen as the last remnants of a golden age of heroes.
NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases
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This. I'm willing to give up some measure of Freedom when evil is outside my door, pounding on the walls, trying to get in. When there are terrorist cells blowing up parts of my city, I'll gladly fling myself into the restrictions of Martial Law for the safety it provides. Once things settle down I'll want those freedoms back, mind you...|
Originally Posted by CapnGeist
I haven't found their arguments to really suggest they'll throw their freedom away for table scraps. What I find their arguments to suggest is that they'll sacrifice some of their freedom from protection from giant monsters and fanatical terrorists.
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But in Praetoria the danger is -still- prevalent. With the Syndicate, the Destroyers, and just beyond the sonic barriers: The Devoured. Martial Law is still in effect. And then the Destroyers and the Syndicate and the resistance all pop out of the woodwork? Come on. You can't tell me the US of A in all it's superiority wouldn't shut down EVERYTHING if terrorist cells were active in the capital and had access to nuclear materials, flinging cars around, or psychic power.
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Originally Posted by CapnGeist
We DO see, throughout the Responsibility AND Power arc, that most of what the Loyalists do involves protecting people from the Resistance, the Destroyers, and the Syndicate, and it's just a small subset of Loyalists that are actively working to keep the Destroyers effective.
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Originally Posted by CapnGeist
On top of that, most of Steampunkette's arguments at this point don't seem indicative of Steampunkette's beliefs so much as they show that she doesn't realize that Golden Girl isn't actually trying to debate (In America!) and that she's trying to make Golden Girl understand that while fascism is bad, it's not the worst thing that could ever happen to humanity (which would be total extinction).
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-Rachel-
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Attention duelists! If anybody actually believes Golden Girl's 'arguments' (In America!), then nothing you can say or do will repair their brain damage without at least 8 years of medical schooling.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Actually I'm trying to make sure people who walk into the thread don't mistake silence for assent to her stupidity. And rather than actually arguing against her (impossible, since she won't actually -say- anything most of the time) I'm arguing against her position for everyone else who wanders in the thread to see.
-Rachel- |
Really, it's pretty obvious that she's either mentally ill or actively trolling. Her method of response isn't just stupidity, she's actively ignoring it whenever good questions are directly pointed at her. If she were just an idiot, that'd be one thing, but she's either got serious mental issues or she's a mean, spiteful person who's actively trying to annoy you (and, from the looks of it, is succeeding, in America!)
I propose that you cease trying to "argue" with her, and instead respond to every post she says by flipping it around, calling her a Terrorist, and informing her that she is inciting your Brooklyn Rage.
NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases
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Ahh thanks! I do recall that bit now.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Yes, you did. Dark Watcher tells you that Enriche is spiked in the final Warden morality mission. The "Don't Drink It" and "Drink Enriche!" badges imply that the same drug is in the rest of the water, but that doesn't make much sense.
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| What gets me about these threads is that a lot of people seem to be ready to throw their freedom away for a Twinkie. If the pro-fascist attitudes evinced by people like Eiko-Chan, Steampunkette and BenRGamer are at all prevalent among young people today we're in deep trouble. |
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| I think they intended for the "moral ambiguity" to be found in the choices the player is confronted with and not in the actual factions. Unfortunately it doesn't really work that way; if the only choices are Fascist or Terrorist then there's no real ambiguity in the scenarios. For me, and evidently for a lot of people, the result is Darkness Induced Apathy. |
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| See, this is indicative of the kind of statements that set me off. Humans aren't violent little monkeys that need zookeepers. Humans are constructive, not destructive, and the proof of that is the world all around you. If humans were destructive as a species we'd still be living in caves throwing poo at each other. (Of course, some might argue that we just use the Internet for that now. They might use this thread as an example.) We build far, far, far more than we destroy. We live in a world of wonders our distant forefathers could scarcely comprehend, and we live in it because no matter how many times we may have stumbled along the way we have always taken what came before us and built on it, improving it. We are the most fantastic creatures on this planet. People like Tyrant who can't see that are just cowards, afraid of other people and what they might do if not completely under his control. |
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Unless he was conscripted I would blame such a man for choosing to be a cop in the first place. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean I'd shove him against the wall when the revolution comes, either. It would depend on what he had actually done. As for forgiveness, well, that comes after repentance. But there's no way I'd call him a hero. |
"There's villainy ... and then there's supervillainy. The difference is performance."
-Doc_Reverend
Y'know... after re-reading the speech Cole gives you when you head to Paragon... I think GG is Cole in disguise. O.O
She wants to go into other nations and force her way of thinking, her way of life, her belief system, onto the people of that nation. How is that any different from Cole?
At least Cole thinks the other nation is a threat to his people... GG would invade Canada just to ensure they have the same government/beliefs she does.
-Rachel-
Golden Cole, huh?
Also, Venture, I'm not saying throw away your freedoms for a twinkee. I've said before and I'll say it again, Cole is evil, he should not lead, but, the status quo is such that right now, if Cole's empire became destabilized (Like, say, by bringing Cole down) then Humanity could very well face near total extinction at the hands of Hamidon.
It's nowhere near ideal, but it's preferrable to extinction, is what I'm saying.
Yup, Cole and GG are identical.
Both KNOW what is best for everyone.
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I don't know that we've had any canon information posted on Praetoria's naturalization procedures, but as long as the hair-splitting has started:|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
The point remains the same.
Your mother was not born a Spanish Citizen living in the US. She was born an American citizen. We're in agreement on that fact, right? Not on my initial gender assumptions, but the point of the matter. She was born in the US and is a citizen of the US not of Spain or France or Zimbabwe. But the US. If she was born in Spain she would not be a US citizen. By the same token, a person born in Praetoria isn't an American, but is a Praetorian. -Rachel- |
Only if Praetoria recognizes jus soli as a source of citizenship. This is by no means absolute -- even in the modern era, not even half the countries in the world follow the lex soli. Jus sanguinis and others are still alive and well.
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
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There isn't any other nations out there. Just Preatoria, just the people that were saved in the Hamidon war.
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Originally Posted by Cipher
I don't know that we've had any canon information posted on Praetoria's naturalization procedures, but as long as the hair-splitting has started:
Only if Praetoria recognizes jus soli as a source of citizenship. This is by no means absolute -- even in the modern era, not even half the countries in the world follow the lex soli. Jus sanguinis and others are still alive and well. |
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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And because of that, all people are Praetorians. Though what he's referring to is something different.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
There isn't any other nations out there. Just Preatoria, just the people that were saved in the Hamidon war.
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In some nations citizenship isn't based on where you were born or who your parents were, but some other variable. Like Government or Military Service that must be completed to become a full-fledged Citizen. Until you complete it you're a Civilian living in that nation.
-Rachel-
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Since when has being wrong ever stopped a stormtrooper? |
Originally Posted by Venture
I'm only going to deal with a few things here as I don't have time to address the seventy posts of stupid this thread attracted in the last eight hours. (The short answer is that the easy way to tell if Steampunkette is wrong is to see if her (virtual) lips are moving.)
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| Yes, the State did create the Ghouls. Please read the entire article and not just the parts you like |
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| What's more, Vasiliskos was working as part of a State program to create super-soldiers. He wasn't some crackpot mixing drugs in his basement. Everything he did is a result of the State's intent. |
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| Some |
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| of the Ghouls created afterwards might be clones, but not all of them. You work with a guy who was turned into a Ghoul (Carlos Gomez) in that arc! Come on! |
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| And even suggesting that clones aren't deserving of human rights is despicable. |
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| Dark Watcher tells you that Enriche is spiked in the final Warden morality mission. The "Don't Drink It" and "Drink Enriche!" badges imply that the same drug is in the rest of the water, but that doesn't make much sense. |
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| What gets me about these threads is that a lot of people seem to be ready to throw their freedom away for a Twinkie. If the pro-fascist attitudes evinced by people like Eiko-Chan, Steampunkette and BenRGamer are at all prevalent among young people today we're in deep trouble. |
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| See, this is indicative of the kind of statements that set me off. Humans aren't violent little monkeys that need zookeepers. Humans are constructive, not destructive, and the proof of that is the world all around you. If humans were destructive as a species we'd still be living in caves throwing poo at each other. (Of course, some might argue that we just use the Internet for that now. They might use this thread as an example.) We build far, far, far more than we destroy. We live in a world of wonders our distant forefathers could scarcely comprehend, and we live in it because no matter how many times we may have stumbled along the way we have always taken what came before us and built on it, improving it. We are the most fantastic creatures on this planet. People like Tyrant who can't see that are just cowards, afraid of other people and what they might do if not completely under his control. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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The other world leaders mentioned in-game might disagree with you |
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
There isn't any other nations out there. Just Preatoria, just the people that were saved in the Hamidon war.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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The stiff-armers can't crush the spirit of a nation thaty easily |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
By the same token, a person born in Praetoria isn't an American, but is a Praetorian.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The stiff-armers can't crush the spirit of a nation thaty easily
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
America, in that world, is gone. Dead. Finito. Kaput. Shin. Ashes.
Passed on. America is no more. It has ceased to be. It is expired and gone off to meet it's maker. Bereft of Life, it Rests in Peace. If you weren't nailing it up to the wall it would be pushing up the daisies. The legislative processes are history. It's off the Twig, it's kicked the bucket. It has shuffled off the mortal coil and joined the bleeding choir invisible. America is an Ex-Nation. |
I'm afraid you'd still be quite wrong.
America in that dimension was dead before it launched the second nuclear weapon at it's own soil.
-Rachel-
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork