Emperor Cole at the end of the Power Loyalist Arc...


AnElfCalledMack

 

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Originally Posted by BenRGamer View Post
Notice how none of those mention mass murder.
Officer Pell also says "do you know how many people Cole has killed on a weekly basis, just to protect his utopia?" during Cleopatra's arc - which sounds like there may be more than one or two being slaughtered by the fascists each week.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
I'm not really seeing how Wardog's family being executed for him teaching his students about the real history of Praetoria could count as terrorists - although that does seem to be a term the fascists use for anyone who opposes their horrific dictatorship.
Or he could be lying about why they were killed. He could be trying to play on the sympathies of the gullible to get his way. Y'know, like how Cleopatra lies to every Responsible Loyalist she sees and tries to get them killed.

It's more likely that he or his family or all involved were working with the Wardens or Crusaders and got into trouble for it.

-Rachel-


 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Officer Pell also says "do you know how many people Cole has killed on a weekly basis, just to protect his utopia?" during Cleopatra's arc - which sounds like there may be more than one or two being slaughtered by the fascists each week.
I honestly don't believe a word Pell says. And it shocks me that you can support such an awful man.

Apply Occam's razor to his situation. A group of cops just randomly put him onto the ground and kept going until he couldn't walk, then took his wife and child for execution, leaving him on the ground until Medical picked him up?

He, himself, states that they were out after curfew. Wouldn't the cops have taken him someplace private if they were going to torture him, rather than do it in the streets? They have interrogation chambers, after all.

And taking the wife and child but leaving him, then executing -them- as enemies of the state? Is it possible that his wife and potentially child ("Child" meaning offspring, not 8-year-old) were working with the Resistance Terrorists or Syndicate?

His story is full of holes, and he punctuates it by going to a public place and killing a man in front of his family.

He's a monster, and likely either ignorant of the truth about his family (Cleopatra managed to hide her allegiance from her boyfriend) or complicit in their crimes and lying to cover it up.

-Rachel-

*Edit* And let's not forget his work with the Hospital Bombing plot. Is that the act of a man eager to preserve the memory of his wife and daughter? To murder hundreds of people in an instant? No. He's a madman and a Crusader. You can't trust a word he says.


 

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Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
The difference is that Torture is designed to inflict long lasting physical and psychological pain.
No it isn't - it's designed to make the victim do or say what you want them to do or say - the long term effects of it don't matter at all.

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Eh.. Could be their off-duty lounge for all you know. It's a hint at -something- below, but not a solid piece of evidence.
They also say how the BAF is fun becuase there's just them and the "traitors" there, so they can do what they like to them.

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Before anyone accuses me of being a vicious jackbooted thug
Your words have kinda made the accusation for you

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I do not support police brutality. But i do understand the difference between punching someone and putting them on the rack for a few hours. I hope you all do, too.
Hurting people to make them do or say what you want them to do or say is the same, regardless of how you hurt them.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Cole View Post
Hurting people to make them do or say what you want them to do or say is the same, regardless of how you hurt them.
That would be Coercion through Pain.

Beating or torturing someone to make a confession would be Coercion. you're not getting them to confess to a crime they feel guilty about, you're forcing them to say what you want them to say.

Smacking some terrorist in an interrogation chamber while asking him where the rest of the terrorist cell he's a part of is hiding isn't forcing him to day something you prepared or want him to say. It's getting information and it's a long standing tradition in plenty of nations (including the US!) which is only recently being mitigated to any degree.

Now inflicting -severe- pain or suffering (long term pain) would be torture. But punching a guy would be Brutality. There is a difference and I'd prefer if you didn't mistake the two.

Neither is a "Good" thing, Golden Cole, but one is significantly worse than the other.

-Rachel-


 

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Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
That would be Coercion through Pain.

Beating or torturing someone to make a confession would be Coercion. you're not getting them to confess to a crime they feel guilty about, you're forcing them to say what you want them to say.

Smacking some terrorist in an interrogation chamber while asking him where the rest of the terrorist cell he's a part of is hiding isn't forcing him to day something you prepared or want him to say. It's getting information
And it's still torture - it doesn't matter if the person has any information or not, or if they've done what you suspect them of doing - you're still hurting someone who can't fight back - so it's torture.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Hurting people to make them do or say what you want them to do or say is the same, regardless of how you hurt them.

Attention Duelists! What if you hurt people to try and make them stop oppressing your freedom?


NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases

 

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Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
It's more likely that he or his family or all involved were working with the Wardens or Crusaders and got into trouble for it.
Rothstein also had his wife and daughter murdered by the Powers Division - plus, on the GR website section about the PPD it says:

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"When someone speaks out against Emperor Cole or Praetorian matters, the dark side of the PPD emerges, and burly, well-armed officers come into your house in the dead of night and take your loved ones away.
"
So it looks like the policy of the dictatorship is to punish the families of anyone who steps out of line, not just the person themselves.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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What if you oppress people's freedom to force them to rebel against their government?


 

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Originally Posted by CapnGeist View Post
Attention Duelists! What if you hurt people to try and make them stop oppressing your freedom?
Well, you can't really throw off fascist oppression without hurting some of the oppressors - it's very unlikely they'd all surrender without a fight.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by BenRGamer View Post
What if you oppress people's freedom to force them to rebel against their government?
Normal people don't need to be forced to want to be free - that's why dictatorships do the evil things they do


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Well, you can't really throw off fascist oppression without hurting some of the oppressors - it's very unlikely they'd all surrender without a fight.
Fighting Oppressors? Sure. I can get behind that!

Bombing Hospitals and Nuking 2 whole cities all of which are filled with innocents? No. I can't get behind that.

-Rachel-


 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Well, you can't really throw off fascist oppression without hurting some of the oppressors - it's very unlikely they'd all surrender without a fight.
Attention duelists! Golden Girl totally just said that hurting people to make them do what you want is always wrong!


NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases

 

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Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
Bullspit. People all throughout the pre-Christian ages, Roman Ages, Middle Ages, Imperial Ages, and even most of the Colonial, Revolutionary, and post-Revolutionary ages were perfectly content to be ruled by a single man or woman (almost always a man!)

Those people were perfectly normal.
So there were never any uprisings anywhere, ever? I wonder where that crazy idea of democracy came from, and why so many people seem to want it in their country?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by CapnGeist View Post
Attention duelists! Golden Girl totally just said that hurting people to make them do what you want is always wrong!
When they can't fight back, yes.

Hurting stormtroopers during a battle when you're trying to free the world from their tyranny is totally ok.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
Golden Cole
Considering GG's apparent love for the same moral certainty as Cole, her teasing and not-really-serious take on espousing him as wrong, and her love of clinging to the retconned Tyrant/Dominatrix relationship, I think I've gotten her figured out.

Poor girl is Cole's ex.


 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
When they can't fight back, yes.

Hurting stormtroopers during a battle when you're trying to free the world from their tyranny is totally ok.
And bombing hospitals, too, right? Nuking Cities? Starting riots that will get innocent people killed is also totally okay... Right Golden Cole? Right?

In her mind it's fine to support a group of people who are committing terrorist acts and blowing up innocent people so long as you're fighting against people who kill terrorists and people suspected of terrorism...

.... Wait...

-Rachel-


 

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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan View Post
Considering GG's apparent love for the same moral certainty as Cole, her teasing and not-really-serious take on espousing him as wrong, and her love of clinging to the retconned Tyrant/Dominatrix relationship, I think I've gotten her figured out.

Poor girl is Cole's ex.
Makes sense. I can see why Cole left, though, she's too crazy even for a maniac.


 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
I don't sleep with immoral trash
No wonder he dumped you.


 

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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan View Post
No wonder he dumped you.
For some reason I have the odd urge to start yelling out 'Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!'

Ah, white trash daytime TV...


 

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Yeah... Eiko, I think that's going a lot too far...

Pointing out her similarities to Cole or teasing her with a nickname is one thing... Making her out to be frigid and enamored of a videogame monster... Might be a little much.

But that last line? That was out of line.

-Rachel-

*Edit* Did I just stun everyone by -not- being a vindictive witch? >.>
... Sorry. I'll try harder, next time. It just felt a little too harsh to me, where as jokey nicknames were more lighthearted. I may not like the girl...


 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
When they can't fight back, yes.

Hurting stormtroopers during a battle when you're trying to free the world from their tyranny is totally ok, in America!
Attention Duelists! What about the people in the hospitals and who drink the water who can't fight back?


NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases

 

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GG still hasn't explained how 'Rebel or Die' is any less tyrannical than 'Serve or Die'


 

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Originally Posted by BenRGamer View Post
GG still hasn't explained how 'Rebel or Die' is any less tyrannical than 'Serve or Die'
Because if you're rebelling you're rebelling against a Tyrant.

Of course, then the question becomes whether you're rebelling against Emperor Cole (in which case "Yay! The Resistance loves you!") or the Resistance for trying to blow up your family, friends, and likely as not yourself (In which case you're a jackbooted stormtrooper and not a real person)

The problem with some members of the "loyalists are all evil" crowd *cough Venture Golden Cole cough cough* is that they tend to only use situations and background when it suits their ideals. Namely supporting the Resistance. But they tend to accidentally overlook when people are pushed by the Resistance into supporting Praetoria (being loyal to the people, not Cole). Those people suddenly become slaving murdering baby killing cat drowning puppy kicking stormtroopers shouting "Sieg Heil" to Cole.

There's a huge difference there that they cannot and will not see, because accepting that personal motivation plays into the Loyalist paths, rather than blind thuggery, makes the Warden path a little darker than they think it should be. It's easier to blanket label everyone on the other side of the battlefield with an easy to remember tag-line than it is to accept individuals with different beliefs and goals on the other side of the fight.

Meanwhile I'm only too happy to agree that the Wardens are trying to do the Right Thing, more or less. I just disagree with their methods (Starting Riots by spreading misinformation and half-truths). Now this isn't to say I like the Loyalist's methods, either (allowing slavery and brutality to occur) it's just that it generally results in fewer deaths at the end of the day.

But in the end; The heroically minded (if not heroic) members of both factions head to Paragon with a similar goal: Depose Cole. The Wardens want to tear everything down to the foundation and start over which will probably result in Praetoria being destroyed. The Responsible Loyalists want to take out Cole, specifically, without endangering too many of their fellow countrymen in the process.

Which one will get it done with the fewest casualties? I'm betting on the Responsibles, myself. And that's how I can justify having the Loyalist tag in my signature. I might not like the methods of the government, but neither do I like the Resistance's methods. At the end of the day it's the result you have to pick. Rioting and infighting followed by brutal crackdowns (Warden choice of information first, action second) or a knock down drag out with Cole and his Oligarchs resulting in their defeat with some damage done to Praetoria (Responsible choice of action against Cole without informing the populace until after it's done)

If the Wardens succeed in their goal (Telling everyone the truth, turning the people against Cole, then taking him out) Many people will die as the PPD/Seers/Etc tear into the populace, not to mention Cole and his Oligarchs as well, fighting against entire groups of civilians and commiting mass slaughter.

If the Responsibles Succeed in their goal, Cole is defeated/Dead, some people will get hurt in the actual -fighting- as it happens by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but there won't be nation-wide riots at least until after he's taken down, and at that point you've got a new super-powerful being (or group of beings) who can intimidate the PPD into putting their weapons down.

Minimum collateral damage is best, in my opinion.

-Rachel-


 

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Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
And that's how I can justify having the Loyalist tag in my signature.
You mean the picture of the blind, mindless slave?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork