Emperor Cole at the end of the Power Loyalist Arc...


AnElfCalledMack

 

Posted

**SPOILER ALERT!!**































At the end of the arc, Emperor Cole pulls open the curtain to reveal everyone you killed (or saw killed) along the way. He admits that the whole thing was staged, ala "The Truman Show", including a sizable budget on blank ammunition and blood-colored dye packs.
"It made ratings history, <charactername>, but you are one sick, evil sonuvagun. You disgust me."


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
There is nothing just about that. He's not just attacking people related to the crime, he's attacking people who didn't know there was a crime committed and have no connection to the crime.
As I've conceded. The Crusaders have gone way overboard. My only question is whether it's at all realistic to expect a resistance movement in a regime like Cole's to be able to restrain themselves so they don't go overboard. I'm skeptical that it is.


bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnGeist View Post
Back to the Mafia example, what the Crusaders are doing here is not saying to Joe the Baker "Stop paying the Mafia's protection money or I'll kill you" so much as it's coming into the Bakery in the middle of the day with an AK-47, shooting Joe and all his customers, and screaming "HEY, GIOVANNI!* WEREN'T YOU SUPPOSED TO BE PROTECTING THIS?"
Actually, yeah that's a better analogy.


bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork View Post
At the end of the arc, Emperor Cole pulls open the curtain to reveal everyone you killed (or saw killed) along the way. He admits that the whole thing was staged, ala "The Truman Show", including a sizable budget on blank ammunition and blood-colored dye packs.
"It made ratings history, <charactername>, but you are one sick, evil sonuvagun. You disgust me."
It's the Mojoverse!


bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!

 

Posted

You get the option to ignore orders on the Loyalist side, too. Also, judging from some of the missions, some amount of free thought is allowed (Otherwise there wouldn't be enough people willing to hold public protests or even riots)

You can agree or disagree with Cole, to his face at at least one point, too.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRGamer View Post
You get the option to ignore orders on the Loyalist side, too. Also, judging from some of the missions, some amount of free thought is allowed (Otherwise there wouldn't be enough people willing to hold public protests or even riots)

You can agree or disagree with Cole, to his face at at least one point, too.
I'm talking less about the player's character, since they have script immunity - they need to be able to ignore orders for game play purposes, and they can't really have Cole's regime coming to arrest them for being a traitor.

I'm talking about characters the player encounters while doing missions in Praetoria.


bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRGamer View Post
The Resistance is no more just than the Loyalists.
Kinda weird then the way the game forces every single Praetorian to join the Resistance allies on Primal Earth by level 20

The game is set up for the the players to help the Resistance bring down the Praetorian reich, regardless of them picking blue side or red side.

And the upcoming content isn't looking too promising for the stiff-armers either


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by james_joyce View Post
I'm talking less about the player's character, since they have script immunity - they need to be able to ignore orders for game play purposes, and they can't really have Cole's regime coming to arrest them for being a traitor.
Well, they could - and they sort of do, too - like you get called an "enemy of the state" as early as the tutorial


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by james_joyce View Post
As I've conceded. The Crusaders have gone way overboard. My only question is whether it's at all realistic to expect a resistance movement in a regime like Cole's to be able to restrain themselves so they don't go overboard. I'm skeptical that it is.
They shouldn't attack targets that aren't part of the sytem of oppression - a hospital isn't a valid target, but a PPD precinct is.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by james_joyce View Post
But the law is essentially ad hoc - they can do anything to anyone at any time.
But only for the greater good, citizen - everything is done for the greater good.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by james_joyce View Post
I'm talking less about the player's character, since they have script immunity - they need to be able to ignore orders for game play purposes, and they can't really have Cole's regime coming to arrest them for being a traitor.

I'm talking about characters the player encounters while doing missions in Praetoria.
Well, if you aren't talking about the PCs, what Resistance NPCs outright ignore orders?

And, GG, shhh. The adults are debating.


 

Posted

James... You're applying external opinion to the game's situation...

The game is a dictatorship with hints at Tyranny. There are some Orwellian Themes, but no in-game proof that most of what you're saying is true.

The "Thought Crime" idea. If Thought Crime was enough to warrant execution there wouldn't -be- a resistance. They'd all be executed before they decided to reach out to the other malcontents. Or are we to believe that the psychics in the Resistance are able to shield the minds of people they don't know are thinking about becoming resistance members -before- the Seers (Who are actively scanning for seditious thought, according to the thought-crime theory) realize they're there?

If seditious thought were enough of a crime to warrant being "Disappeared" then the Resistance would have been crushed a decade ago. They wouldn't have been able to recruit new members, since the government would be executing anyone with the spark of sedition, and the members they HAVE would be killed in duty (mostly by being terrorists)

It -cannot- work like that, since there -is- a resistance. Ergo thought crime is not how it works, but an assumption the players like to think of because they're reading into it.

Further evidence that they're not hunting seditious -thought- is the statements of the Seers "I'm sensing hostility toward my person, Citizen. And will react accordingly" or when you're told the Seers have detected panic and fear and you're sent in to save the people who are panicked and terrified. Hostility, Panic, and Fear are all -emotional- responses, not logical ones.

By all means, refute me! But use evidence from the game and not assumption.

As for my characterization of Dictatorships. I have lived in one before. I was in Thailand for a month, during which I did some of the "Touristy" things, but I spent most of my time talking with people who had been living in or visiting Thailand for years.

In a month of talking to doctors, hotel owners, shop keepers, street vendors, and temple caretakers I came to understand they were not having their rights trampled. Mind you this was near Christmas of 2006, while the entire nation was under Martial Law. The people of Thailand adored their Monarch. not out of Fear, but of genuine respect and love. Why?

Because as a young man he went around the nation with a camera hanging around his neck, talking to his people, learning what they need and want, helping to bring modern farming techniques to rural communities, or making grand donations to charities. When you see people on Thai TV networks commemorating him or honoring him it's -genuine- not some fake lip-service.

So I've seen how a Dictatorship can be a good thing for a nation. And it's evident that Cole -does- have elected representatives chosen by the people. Otherwise Luke Larson wouldn't be a politician looking to curry favor. The Magisters wouldn't have different leanings. And a Constitutional Monarch can intervene, as well, within certain limits. So Cole over-riding some decisions the Magisters bring before him isn't tyrannical.

And a lack of Freedom of Speech? Protestors in Nova Praetoria. Magisters with political leanings toward the Resistance.

-Rachel-


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRGamer View Post
Well, if you aren't talking about the PCs, what Resistance NPCs outright ignore orders?
Well, Luke Larson asking you to break up the Crusaders and Destroyers getting friendly with each other might be going against Calvin Scott's orders, as Calvin seems to have a bit of a "whatever" attitude to everything his friends are getting up to


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post

The game is a dictatorship with hints at Tyranny.
The mass-murder, disappearances, thought police, torture, slavery, propaganda, state control of the media and education and summary executions of "traitors" does seem to add up to a pretty big hint

Quote:
The "Thought Crime" idea. If Thought Crime was enough to warrant execution there wouldn't -be- a resistance. They'd all be executed before they decided to reach out to the other malcontents.
Not if you escape to the Underground first

Quote:
Further evidence that they're not hunting seditious -thought- is the statements of the Seers "I'm sensing hostility toward my person, Citizen. And will react accordingly" or when you're told the Seers have detected panic and fear and you're sent in to save the people who are panicked and terrified. Hostility, Panic, and Fear are all -emotional- responses, not logical ones.
Well, the Seers tell you that Tyrant "approves of that thought", or "that thought will not do" - plus the badge called "Seer" says that "the Seer is the instrument of control and the constant threat of the Emperor's displeasure" - and thinking about freedom would certainly displease Tyrant

Quote:
When you see people on Thai TV networks commemorating him or honoring him it's -genuine- not some fake lip-service.
A lot of Germans were genuinely rather keen on their leader back in the 30s and 40s - that doesn't mean he was good for them - or anyone else

Quote:
So I've seen how a Dictatorship can be a good thing for a nation.
A dictatorship is never a good thing for anyone - except for stormtroopers, of course - they just love them.

Quote:
And it's evident that Cole -does- have elected representatives chosen by the people. Otherwise Luke Larson wouldn't be a politician looking to curry favor. The Magisters wouldn't have different leanings. And a Constitutional Monarch can intervene, as well, within certain limits. So Cole over-riding some decisions the Magisters bring before him isn't tyrannical.
There's no constitution in Praetoria - they have an immortal emperor instead
And the Resistance supporters like Luke Larson in the Magisterium have to keep their sympathies secret - because, like everything the dictatorship does in public, free spech is an illusion

Quote:
And a lack of Freedom of Speech? Protestors in Nova Praetoria. Magisters with political leanings toward the Resistance.
What about the ones being shot at? Or pehaps they just said the wrong things?

Jessica Flores' arc shows just how much free speech in the Praetorian reich


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Cole View Post
I am a Massive Tool with nothing constructive to add to this conversation. I will only spout the same lines of Bullspit that I've been spouting since the first days of beta, because I have no understanding of any viewpoint other than the most narrow possible explanation of reality. I will swallow the Resistance Lies without question and ignore any evidence to the contrary, like a good little Sturmengruppen
MmHmm.. Yup. That's about right... Maybe... OH! I know what's missing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Cole View Post
-Rachel-


 

Posted

Everything the Resistance says about the dictatorship is backed up with proof - which is why the game puts all the players on their side at level 20

Although as a stormtrooper, your attitude is understandable - just like in RL, supporters of a dictatorship will frequently deny that the crimes against humanity the dictatorship carried out ever actually happened.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
GG, a lot of your assertions aren't supported by anything i've read. You do realize that a lot of what you're railing against is stuff you've embellished in your own head, right?
Feel free to point them out then

Quote:
No process short of general revolt or regicide to replace a rogue leader with someone more stable or competent.
Welcome to the Resistance


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Golden Cole, Golden Cole... please, hush, so the grownups can debate properly. If you want to go on and on babbling incoherently, go talk to a wall. It has about as many relevant things to say as you do.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
Calvin Scott wants to kill Cole and take power, and his wife.
Where is it mentioned that he wants to take power?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRGamer View Post
Golden Cole, Golden Cole... please, hush, so the grownups can debate properly. If you want to go on and on babbling incoherently, go talk to a wall. It has about as many relevant things to say as you do.
You stormtroopers are starting to sound a little desperate now


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Ah, the Ceasar thing makes the most sense, since it's 'Praetoria' after all.

And, Golden Cole, the only one desperate here is you, and you've always been desperate.

Desperate people ignore counter-arguments. Desperate people shout 'AMERICA!' again and again. Desperate people have to FORCE everyone to think and believe the same way as them, such as you with your 'Democracy is always right, dur-hur!'

Et cetera, et cetera.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Everything the Resistance says about the dictatorship is backed up with proof - which is why the game puts all the players on their side at level 20
Technically, everybody, rebel scum or loyalist stormtrooper, at L20 becomes a flunky of Arachnos or Longbow, both of whom use the Resistance for their own (mostly selfish) reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Although as a stormtrooper, your attitude is understandable - just like in RL, supporters of a dictatorship will frequently deny that the crimes against humanity the dictatorship carried out ever actually happened.
The same can be said of the Resistance, you seem to be proof.

(Although, I'll still side with the Resistance. I'm just honest about the reasons: Handing Praetoria over to Lord Recluse.)


An MMO closure is definitely not a joke, and I have no intention of making light of it. And it can be a tough and emotional thing for players to go through, speaking from personal experience. And I know that it's often much harder on the developers than on the publisher. However, I also know that it doesn't necessarily turn you into a sad, depressed sack of tears for the rest of your life. People can move past it, and heal.

 

Posted

See what I mean? Desperate.

Poor girl.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRGamer View Post
See what I mean? Desperate.

Poor girl.
Show me where the crimes of the dictatorship aren't real - point out all the Resistance "lies" about Tyrant's utopia


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork