Emperor Cole at the end of the Power Loyalist Arc...
By
AnElfCalledMack,
Posted on: 2010-09-20 14:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
And for the record: No. I wouldn't blame the manufacturer of a glass for my own slippery hands when and if I drop a glass.
however unlike some people I believe in the idea of Multicausation. That an event does not spring from a single decision, but is instead lead up to. And when you're discussing whether or not a criminal group was formed because of an opposition, you have to take into account that they were criminals -before- the opposition occured. And had they not been criminal, there would never have been an Opposition presented.
Blaming the Police Officer for wearing a Bullet Proof Vest when a criminal fires and armor-piercing round through a wall and kills someone behind him is ridiculous.
The criminal endangering people is why the cop has a gun is why the criminal has a gun is why the officer put on the vest is why the criminal got armor piercing rounds is why the person in the next room got shot.
There is an equal and opposite reaction isn't -quite- right. Since there can be multiple reactions in a social or scientific forum which lead to multiple different reactions which are, in the end, roughly equal and opposed, if not opposite. Take a look at James Burke's Connections series to see how events that might otherwise seem completely unrelated are linked rather closely.
-Rachel-
*Edit* In fact, you can find the entire thing online Here. Posted by the man himself.
Please, stop responding to GG. It's incredibly obvious she's just a plant from the loyal nazi stormtrooping fascist kitten-beaters 
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. --- Thomas Jefferson
Formerly known as YFNDBA
It's all moot, anyway. Cole is not the greatest threat to anything...
This hamster is!
Look at him... Giving you the stink eye while rubbing his tiny people-hands together like a James Bond villain! Go "Awwww" and then flee! Flee before he can get yoooooooooou!
-Rachel-
i declare this best thread on the forums
long live cole train
Yeah, Golden Girl, showing some skin.
See, this is why we put up with her antics.
NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases
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Oh we are in agreement there at least Steam. It's a minor issue in reality, and does nothing for the conversation as it was being said. |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
The point remains the same.
Your mother was not born a Spanish Citizen living in the US. She was born an American citizen. We're in agreement on that fact, right? Not on my initial gender assumptions, but the point of the matter. She was born in the US and is a citizen of the US not of Spain or France or Zimbabwe. But the US. If she was born in Spain she would not be a US citizen. By the same token, a person born in Praetoria isn't an American, but is a Praetorian. -Rachel- |
Please keep in mind that a citizen is not the same as someone born into a country. Case in point, Arnold Schwartzenager is an American citizen. He was not born here, but he is an American citizen. He is still Austrian.
Historically speaking, after the 3rd generation, I no longer consider a person a part of their forefather's culture, but part of their new culture. Those people who can trace their linage back to the Mayflower, how they go on and say they are English, or to a Dutch settler in the 1700's. They are not more Dutch than I am. I have the same issue with many of the African American's. They have passed that 3rd generation rule, and not one of them can ttell what slavery was actaully like. They can talk about segregation and prejudice with full knowledge, but they no longer are part of the tribes that they were taken from 200 or more years ago. They are American. Mind I have very little research proof to back this theory up, but I maintiain it's true. (Heh, yet another thing to learn in college.)
Back to the op, America in the universe is dead, as are most other countries. Cole, whether he was American or not when he was born, is no longer American. He is one of the few people alive that can truthfully talk about the America in that world. Like many times in history, the business of survival does not include historical reference points until the society is stable. Even still, Cole is the rightful ruler by designation of the people of the planet. Should he relinquish the reins? Not until Hamidon is gone for good. In many ways, Praetoria is a military state.
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Wow... Now -that- is a narcissism I wasn't expecting! Congratulations, Golden Cole! you've managed to make me lose a little more respect for you! I wasn't sure that was possible.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Yearning to breathe free?
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But yeah... Martial Law, Military State, still in a state of emergency. Plenty of reasons to explain why he hasn't given up power, yet. And good ones, too! Though it doesn't excuse the Seer program at all. I -think- it could excuse the executions and imprisonments, though. Seeing as how those people were likely as not seditious or treasonous, and we've no word on their crimes except in a handful of cases where the person telling the tale has plenty of reason to lie.
Occam's Razor dictates that Cole orders the execution of those who are threats to Praetoria, not random people.
And the ghouls were an attempt to create super-soldiers which were meant to protect the people. Hell, it's just as likely that the results of the first experiment held together well and a company or two of men were injected, only to find out that not all reacted to the chemical mixtures in the same way... And of course we do both animal and human trials on various drugs and performance enhancers in the real world.
The multiple-company theory also explains why some of them are wearing color-coded jumpsuits: Different batches of test subjects. Add in the whole business about cloning Vasilikos and you've got a limitless number of test subjects. Not a terribly ethical situation, but do we -really- expect Neuron to be ethical?
Though... when you add in the cloning tech being used by Neuron it's feasible that Cole would only know about the first batch or two of ghoulish test subjects... and the rest could be easily hidden by sweeping the financials into different projects. It's completely plausible that Cole has deny-ability over -most- of what the Praetors are doing... Interesting thought, that.
Oh! And before I forget!
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
America, in that world, is gone. Dead. Finito. Kaput. Shin. Ashes.
Passed on. America is no more. It has ceased to be. It is expired and gone off to meet it's maker. Bereft of Life, it Rests in Peace. If you weren't nailing it up to the wall it would be pushing up the daisies. The legislative processes are history. It's off the Twig, it's kicked the bucket. It has shuffled off the mortal coil and joined the bleeding choir invisible. America is an Ex-Nation. |
-Rachel-
You actually do encounter "successful" super soldiers later in the game. I believe it's in Neutropolis' Crusader arcs. You meet enemies that went through the Super Soldier program and came out, well, super.
NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases
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Well, being an crazed power-mad dictator is a reason, and I'm sure it seems a good one to him and his thugs too |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Plenty of reasons to explain why he hasn't given up power, yet. And good ones, too!
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| I -think- it could excuse the executions and imprisonments, though. |
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| Seeing as how those people were likely as not seditious or treasonous, and we've no word on their crimes except in a handful of cases where the person telling the tale has plenty of reason to lie. |
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| Occam's Razor dictates that Cole orders the execution of those who are threats to Praetoria, not random people. |
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| And the ghouls were an attempt to create super-soldiers which were meant to protect the people. |
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| Not a terribly ethical situation, but do we -really- expect Neuron to be ethical? |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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No, it's still there - the fascists just wish it was dead |
Originally Posted by BlackArachnia
America in the universe is dead
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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It's totally buried. The terrorists just want it alive. They like to raise the dead. And DO things with dead things. Because they're filthy, filthy terrorists.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
No, it's still there - the fascists just wish it was dead
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NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases
Ah, the resistance are perverts...
Oh--Someone else here made me think of something. A while ago, someone mentioned the Fallout universe, and to be honest, the 'Praetorian America' sounds pretty much like the Fallout one--a super-isolationist country that ultimately destroyed the world with nuclear weapons, sans the Hamidon.
Yep. That's the America the Resistance are trying to bring back. One willing to destroy the world--including itself--with nuclear weapons. I suppose that explains the Crusaders, neh?
That was me. I mentioned Fallout. Because Fallout is awesome. And I totally think that Praetorian Earth is mostly like Fallout.
NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases
Well, GG is staunch believer in Fallout America.
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Wardog wuz here.|
Originally Posted by BenRGamer
Yep. That's the America the Resistance are trying to bring back. One willing to destroy the world--including itself--with nuclear weapons. I suppose that explains the Crusaders, neh?
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MacArthur was a *****.
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Occam's razor doesn't dictate anything - it's not a law. It's a heuristic.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Occam's Razor dictates that Cole orders the execution of those who are threats to Praetoria, not random people.
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This is also a misuse of it. It says that you should postulate as few new entities as possible when proposing a hypothesis.
In this case, the state is making the positive claim that it is capturing and killing individuals because they're dangerous. But the burden of proof lies with them to show that. By foregoing a public trial, they have failed to do so.
One of the most dangerous views the public can hold of the state is that the people it imprisons and kills without trial must have deserved it, or else they wouldn't have done it. If the public perceives the state as approaching infallibility, there's nothing stopping it from becoming a runaway tyranny - a process that has clearly already taken place in Praetoria, national emergency or not.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
I think, Golden Cole, the "Mass Murder" is part of the Executions... it's just a different term applied to it by people trying to drum up sympathy. or can you point me to in game text involving PPD or Loyalists involved in killing sprees?
And the Torture is no different than Torture in any other government. What -exact- methods were used..? Do you know? Then how do you know it was actual torture rather than good old fashioned police brutality to find out where other Terrorists/Murderers/Syndicate were?
-Rachel-
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Oh, I definitely agree with this, one hundred and twenty percent!|
Originally Posted by james_joyce
One of the most dangerous views the public can hold of the state is that the people it imprisons and kills without trial must have deserved it, or else they wouldn't have done it. If the public perceives the state as approaching infallibility, there's nothing stopping it from becoming a runaway tyranny - a process that has clearly already taken place in Praetoria, national emergency or not.
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However that's not what Golden Cole and others fling up. They are trying to convince people, through an appeal to emotion, that -all- or at least -most- the people who were killed were innocent of any crime. It's entirely possible, even likely, that -some- of the people executed were innocent.... But with a Psychic police force (which is already a factor in the equation) the likelihood of that happening is reduced, maybe not as much as it would be with psychics -and- a fair and public trial... But reduced.
It's far more likely that anyone executed by the government either had ties to terrorists/criminals/whatever or -was- a terrorist/criminal/whatever than the idea that people are rounded up at random to be slaughtered for no reason other than to kill them.
Is that fair to say?
-Rachel-
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One of the Underground exploration badges:|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I think, Golden Cole, the "Mass Murder" is part of the Executions... it's just a different term applied to it by people trying to drum up sympathy. or can you point me to in game text involving PPD or Loyalists involved in killing sprees?
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Dissappeared:
"This is where enemies of the State vanish forever. These lost souls have been brought here from the PPD Headquarters for summary execution without review or recourse."
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| And the Torture is no different than Torture in any other government. What -exact- methods were used..? Do you know? Then how do you know it was actual torture rather than good old fashioned police brutality to find out where other Terrorists/Murderers/Syndicate were? |
Silent Witness:
"You have seen much injustice and brutality in your journeys through Praetoria, and here beneath Precinct 4 in Imperial City you are witness to a chamber dedicated to both. Will you remain silent forever?"
Nailbiter:
"This PPD interrogation and holding area is littered with the signs of harsh treatment. Dried bodily fluids, ripped off fingernails, and a few human teeth mark this area as a place you don't want to wind up in."
Plus, there's text in the BAF where the guards are discussing how the place looks kinda boring, but all the "fun" happens downstairs.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Trials, even rigged ones, seem kinda infrequnet in Praetoria - summary execution seems to be the main way of dealing with "enemies of the state".|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Oh, I definitely agree with this, one hundred and twenty percent!
However that's not what Golden Cole and others fling up. They are trying to convince people, through an appeal to emotion, that -all- or at least -most- the people who were killed were innocent of any crime. It's entirely possible, even likely, that -some- of the people executed were innocent.... But with a Psychic police force (which is already a factor in the equation) the likelihood of that happening is reduced, maybe not as much as it would be with psychics -and- a fair and public trial... But reduced. |
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| It's far more likely that anyone executed by the government either had ties to terrorists/criminals/whatever or -was- a terrorist/criminal/whatever than the idea that people are rounded up at random to be slaughtered for no reason other than to kill them. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Well, that's why they say they were "sent overseas" - it lets them slaughter as many people as they like without the public realizing that the people who've disappeared have been murdered.|
Originally Posted by james_joyce
In this case, the state is making the positive claim that it is capturing and killing individuals because they're dangerous. But the burden of proof lies with them to show that. By foregoing a public trial, they have failed to do so.
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| One of the most dangerous views the public can hold of the state is that the people it imprisons and kills without trial must have deserved it, or else they wouldn't have done it. If the public perceives the state as approaching infallibility, there's nothing stopping it from becoming a runaway tyranny - a process that has clearly already taken place in Praetoria, national emergency or not. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Notice how none of those mention mass murder.
Doesn't that kinda make you pointing out all the badges that don't mention mass murder kinda... stupid?
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Oooo... Almost ... but not quite. It says nothing about "Mass Murder" or whether anyone committed a crime or not. It doesn't say "Innocent Souls" It specifically says "Enemies of the State" and really, what does it matter if the execution chamber is underground or in the Behavioral Facility? |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
One of the Underground exploration badges:
Dissappeared: "This is where enemies of the State vanish forever. These lost souls have been brought here from the PPD Headquarters for summary execution without review or recourse." |
That said, I don't support the Death Penalty except in extreme cases, in reality.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, first, torture is totally unaceptable under any circumstances
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
and second, these two badges some info on the PPD thugs:
Silent Witness: "You have seen much injustice and brutality in your journeys through Praetoria, and here beneath Precinct 4 in Imperial City you are witness to a chamber dedicated to both. Will you remain silent forever?" |
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Nailbiter:
"This PPD interrogation and holding area is littered with the signs of harsh treatment. Dried bodily fluids, ripped off fingernails, and a few human teeth mark this area as a place you don't want to wind up in." |
That said, a good punch can knock out teeth and cause some bleeding or, if done in the right place at the wrong time, can cause someone to evacuate...
The fingernails, though, indicate torture for certain. Congratulations! One our of three ain't bad!
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Plus, there's text in the BAF where the guards are discussing how the place looks kinda boring, but all the "fun" happens downstairs.
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Before anyone accuses me of being a vicious jackbooted thug: I do not support police brutality. But i do understand the difference between punching someone and putting them on the rack for a few hours. I hope you all do, too.
-Rachel-
Quiet, Golden Cole, and go subjugate some other parts of the world forcibly under what you 'KNOW' is right.