Quote:
Unless you're fighting Rularru or Fortunata Mistress/Night Widows, I can't see the situation where a well placed ST hold wouldn't get the job done. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Because the situation I was in was actually real, where the situation you are imagining me in is conjectual and created with the intent of being able to say you are correct. The fact is getting mezzed can kill you. You are perhaps the only person I have encountered who claims otherwise. Or haven't you seen the term "zzz" typed in your team window?
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| -Recharge does not stop an alpha. I'm not "discounting" -Recharge at all. In fact I wrote a whole not-guide to it not that long ago (which I can now only find in Google's cache): http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us |
Quote:
While I always say that you can never have too much Freezing Rain, I disagree with the above premise. It is actually quite easy to relegate +Offense from buff/debuff types irrelevant against everything except AVs and GMs. It is much more difficult to render damage mitigation irrelevant when teaming.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
The same thing happens to every support set, but the difference is that having offensive abilities (-res/+dmg/+tohit/-def/+rchg/+end/+rec) sets a constant minimum value of utility for the set, where as FF just skyrockets down to zero utility.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
I mentioned earlier that it is highly unlikely to have an 8man team without any additional mitigation beyond the lone FF user. Also as I said before, FF is the only set that suffers in performance the higher the mitigation is on the team. Part of my problem with this effect is that it happens rapidly because of how diversified this game's mitigation is. It really only takes a 1-2 other defender/controllers or a solid tanker to put a FF on the path of being just weak blaster. Sure, you're still contributing at that point, but it's very little that you're actually adding to the team to the point it would have been better to invite another dps, and it only gets worse the more of those ATs are added. Of course, some might say, they have contributed on such teams on a support level, but I would have to ask you if you sure you weren't just idiot-proofing an already bad team players that would have more in common with Leeroy Jenkins. I believe you used the word, Stability here, but I perceive it as idiot-proofing, and I don't see that exactly as a shining achievement in FF's favor to compensate for it's lack of offense and variety.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
I don't know what idiot said that, but I for one would have probably just left the team right then and there. I can only tolerate a certain amount of stupidity in team chat. I promise you that you will still be needed at the end game being an empathy or force fields.|
Originally Posted by Splat-Fu
"You're doing great! Too bad your AT's aren't needed end game..."
Whoa... is this true? Does empathy and force field become moot to teams @ 50? |
It is true that you do not have to have one of them on your team, but they make the team much more efficient and fast. I can't count the number of times I wished I had a good healer on the team at level 50 or a force fields 'fender.
When I play on my FF 'fender, when I join teams, I always see "Sweet! Force Fields!!" or something to that extent pop up in the chat. Also, my FF defender is dark blast, so the enemies are basically screwed as far as hitting the team goes.
Don't listen to someone that says support is not needed at the end game. Just leave the team, because the people in the team aren't worth your time if they think that way.
Quote:
I like presenting opinions like facts too.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
It's the major gaping hole that is hold the set back from being on par with rest of the support sets. Til then, it's easily the worst support set because of that, that's not a statement that it doesn't do it's job.
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Something people forget about FF, IME, is how effective FF is with 3 primary powers, 1 pool power, and 10 additional slots.
No other set is so economical, which leaves bubblers with lots of space and slots for attacks and pool powers.
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So 14% smash/lethal res (approximately 7% longer lifespan in the endgame) compares to 45% Defense (approximately 900% longer lifespan in the endgame).|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Explain to me first how +res doesn't make blasters less squishy since I wasn't even referring to +Def specifically in that rebuttal but damage mitigation as a whole instead.
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OK, even leaving Body Armor out of it, Blasters get 31% res to Smash, Lethal, and Fire in Flame Mastery. Good thing they've got Rise of the Phoenix.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
FF is a great set. It most certainly is NOT the worst set. Anything that prevents me from getting hit, it's worst in any category, shape or form.
I'd rather have a bubbler than an empath on teams I form.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I concur with Westley, Repulsion bomb is an offensive power, AND even though the stun in repulsion bomb isn't 100% auto hit like howling twilight, it still plays into the defender manual of stacking with teammates stuns, not 100% likely, but capable of boosting a stun mag high enough to stun bosses. My forcefielder stacks repulsion bomb, pionic tornado and psychic scream to offensive effect for 3:30 minutes between bubble cycles.|
Originally Posted by Westley
You said "COMPLETELY lacks offensive abilities". Repulsion Bomb is an offensive ability. Thus, your statement was incorrect.
Hell, even the insignificant damage that Force Bolt does is technically "offensive ability". |
I don't mind presenting the merits of different defender sets. Saying a particular set is the ugly red-headed stepchild of city of heroes is something else. There are definitely situations where Forcefields shines in the late game: the last room of the Lady Grey Taskforce, the Kahn Task Force, and the Statesman Task Force come to mind. I have touted the abilities of defenders for a very long time, and in my opinion there is precious little that an all defender team can't accomplish - even a team with a defender of every stripe.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
A lot of people will love a well-played Empath or a well-played Force Fielder. I am far more partial to my FF/NRG than to my Emp/NRG, but they are both very good characters.
Even though this conversation has mostly turned to Forcefields, I'd like to drop a line or two about Empathy. First, Empathy is very welcome in one of the "end-game" raids, the Hamidon. Because the Hamidon does special untyped damage, it can't be defended against or resisted by anything but special inspirations. The tank (or whatever) that holds the Hamidon's aggro will appreciate all the extra regeneration that raiders can offer. Cue Empathy with it's regeneration aura and Adrenalin Boost.
The other end game event that benefits from an Empath is the Statesman TF. Ghost Widow has a 100 magnitude hold, enough to cut through a tank's normal mez protection. Stacking Clear Mind on the tank allows them to stay free and retain aggro. After that, the tank may require healing and a nice regeneration boost while tanking Lord Recluse because of the ridiculous damage he can deal while buffed by the towers.
There's two fine examples of how Empathy helps in the end game without even touching the beauty of a power that is Fortitude.
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You didn't answer the question, explain how +Res shields aren't a form of damage mitigation.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
So 14% smash/lethal res (approximately 7% longer lifespan in the endgame) compares to 45% Defense (approximately 900% longer lifespan in the endgame).
OK, even leaving Body Armor out of it, Blasters get 31% res to Smash, Lethal, and Fire in Flame Mastery. Good thing they've got Rise of the Phoenix. |
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Like I said to Westley it barely does more than the average non-pet defender aoe blast and has double the cast time and recharge time. That's 7 times less than OSA's damage, 3.5 times less than trip mine, and 5 times less than Time Bomb. That doesn't even come close to categorizing it as massive damage and it's damage is about the same as Sleet just without the damage multiplying feature.
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Originally Posted by Psylenz
I concur with Westley, Repulsion bomb is an offensive power, AND even though the stun in repulsion bomb isn't 100% auto hit like howling twilight, it still plays into the defender manual of stacking with teammates stuns, not 100% likely, but capable of boosting a stun mag high enough to stun bosses. My forcefielder stacks repulsion bomb, pionic tornado and psychic scream to offensive effect for 3:30 minutes between bubble cycles.
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I'm trying to process the fact you mentioned time bomb
Quote:
Oil Slick Arrow that has a 3 minute recharge?|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Like I said to Westley it barely does more than the average non-pet defender aoe blast and has double the cast time and recharge time. That's 7 times less than OSA's damage, 3.5 times less than trip mine, and 5 times less than Time Bomb. That doesn't even come close to categorizing it as massive damage and it's damage is about the same as Sleet just without the damage multiplying feature.
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Trip Mine that almost never gets used in fast moving teams?
Time Bomb???? The power that is universally panned as one of the most useless powers in the entire game?
Keep grasping at those straws, Turbo.
Turbo: We're not communicating.
My argument is "Gee, late-game Blasters get really good value from Force Fields, because it makes them five to ten times tougher and provides mez protection, so they don't go dying all over the place. " Your argument is... I'm not even sure right now.Would you provide a one sentence summary of your position vis-a-vis our discussion?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
My argument is that FF is the only support set that deteriorates to zero value as the amount of damage mitigation increases in the team. You were responding to my post where I was pointing out the how extremely unlikely to find a team composition with very little damage mitigation. Blaster APP/PPP shields are a form of damage mitigation in addition to a blaster's higher base damage to end the fight faster.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Turbo: We're not communicating.
My argument is "Gee, late-game Blasters get really good value from Force Fields, because it makes them five to ten times tougher and provides mez protection, so they don't go dying all over the place. " Your argument is... I'm not even sure right now.Would you provide a one sentence summary of your position vis-a-vis our discussion? |
Quote:
Zero? Ok, you lost me there. Good bye.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
My argument is that FF is the only support set that deteriorates to zero value as the amount of damage mitigation increases in the team. ...
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Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Because sticking 45% defense on top of a Blaster's resistance shield is zero mitigation.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
for a elec/cold troller build? I would take the Seer instead as a pet since it comes with innate status protection and Dark embrace for more rounded self resists (fire/nrg/cold/s/l/neg/toxic) which would stack nicely with the regen aura and controls for mitigation. Wouldn't really have to worry about mez on me because of Static Field can be thrown out of line of sight followed up by laying on a chain confuse or simply tesla caging the annoyances. Why bother even factoring in IOs since that's a powerful combo with just SOs from the get go.
Which brings me back to how diverse the game has gotten in power choices that even without IOs you can make a beastly build can barely be killed at the endgame. Overspecializing a support into only defensive abilities makes no sense when every other set has at least some form of offensive and some form of defensive abilities mixed in. Trick Arrow is easily the most offensive support build but still offers some mitigation debuffs, FF should be the polar opposite of that in design and not completely be without offense. |
If I'm understanding what you've said here, we've now graduated to pure science fiction.
You just compared a multi-billion influence Force Field build that has +80% Recharge and is soft capped to 5 positions with no tradeoffs in control (actually, one small one: the single target mezz is slotted for damage rather than hold) to an Electric/Cold build running on SOs. That is.. well it is going to take me a minute to catch my breath before I continue.
[short break]
Ok. Let's begin with your statement about Static Field. It is simply bizarre. Being able to cast around corners means the same thing as mezz protection? Well that is certainly a... unique perspective. Someone ought to let the Tankers and Scrappers know they can respec out of their mezz protection toggles. It's just wasted endurance now that we have Electric Controllers.
Then you make the same claim about single target holds. "Just being able to Tesla Cage the annoyances." To think, all these years playing Controllers, and it never occurred to me I can prevent mezzes by using my level 1 power on them. Obviously I'm approaching the game incorrectly.
Or, more likely, you are simply selecting random aspects of a power set and using that to claim it's basically like mezz protection, even when that claim makes no sense whatsoever.
You should also probably be told that the pet you mentioned has mezz resistance, not protection, and that Electric/Cold suffers because two of its best powers (Sleet + Static Field) cancel each other. If a conflict like that existed in Force Field you would be all over it. Elec/Cold is a decent build but I could write a volume why Illusion/Cold walks all over it. I won't do that because I'm not convinced, like you are, that power sets can be reduced to slag just because another set sometimes does better in hypothetical situations I can make up for the convenience of making myself seem correct.
Which brings me to something else. You keep blasting Force Field for mainly bringing protection, while ignoring the fact that the main thing Cold Defenders gain above Cold Corruptors is... protection. Sleet and Heat Loss work exactly the same for Defenders and Corruptors (and Controllers). The only powers that vary are the shields, Snow Storm (easy to work around due to cap of -75% on -Recharge), Benumb, and Infrigidate. Oh, and Frostwork, which you've said you don't like. By your logic, we should bypass Cold Defenders in favor of Corruptors, because they don't become redundant. But what, they have a secondary too? It's sure too bad Force Field doesn't get a secondary power set, then it might be able to compete.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
My argument is that FF is the only support set that deteriorates to zero value as the amount of damage mitigation increases in the team. You were responding to my post where I was pointing out the how extremely unlikely to find a team composition with very little damage mitigation. Blaster APP/PPP shields are a form of damage mitigation in addition to a blaster's higher base damage to end the fight faster.
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So no one should ever play a Tanker. Because the damage mitigation on any team is already 100% and therefor it makes no sense to trade offense for defense.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
zero value
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Must be that 'new math' again...
Next build. I could go even more extreme with the defense if I worked harder but I'm pretty happy with where it's sitting. I also could have gone with Traps, but then I wouldn't be running around with an army of tanks as armored as I am. Note that endurance recovery looks lower than it really is because Stamina will become an inherent. I also mainly have Repulsion Field due to the character's name ("Pinball Blizzard.")
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Pinball Blizzard Extreme: Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Force Field
Secondary Power Set: Ice Blast
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(3), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(3), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(5)
Level 1: Ice Bolt -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(40), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(40), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 2: Ice Blast -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg(A), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(27), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Dev'n-Hold%(34)
Level 4: Frost Breath -- Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rng(5), Det'tn-Acc/Dmg(9), Det'tn-Dmg/Rng(25), Det'tn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25)
Level 6: Insulation Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(7), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(7), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 8: Personal Force Field -- Ksmt-ToHit+(A)
Level 10: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(11), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(11), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 12: Dispersion Bubble -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(13), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(13), RedFtn-Def(15), RedFtn-EndRdx(15), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 14: Aim -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(36), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(43), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(48), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(48), GSFC-Build%(48)
Level 16: Freeze Ray -- UbrkCons-Hold/Rchg(A), UbrkCons-Acc/Hold/Rchg(34), UbrkCons-Acc/Rchg(37), UbrkCons-EndRdx/Hold(37), UbrkCons-Dam%(37)
Level 18: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(19), RechRdx-I(19)
Level 20: Ice Storm -- Ragnrk-Knock%(A), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(21), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(21), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(23), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23)
Level 22: Repulsion Field -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 24: Super Speed -- Zephyr-ResKB(A)
Level 26: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 28: Bitter Ice Blast -- Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(A), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Apoc-Dmg(29), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(31), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(31), Apoc-Dam%(33)
Level 30: Tough -- HO:Ribo(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(31), GA-3defTpProc(34)
Level 32: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(45), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(45), LkGmblr-EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 35: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(36), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(36)
Level 38: Blizzard -- Det'tn-Acc/Dmg(A), Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg(39), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rng(39), Det'tn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 41: Web Envelope -- Enf'dOp-Acc/Rchg(A), Enf'dOp-EndRdx/Immob(42), Enf'dOp-Acc/EndRdx(42), Enf'dOp-Immob/Rng(42), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob/Rchg(43), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob(43)
Level 44: Repulsion Bomb -- HO:Nucle(A), Dmg-I(50)
Level 47: Detention Field -- HO:Endo(A)
Level 49: Force Bubble -- EndRdx-I(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 4: Ninja Run
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Set Bonus Totals:
- 11.5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
- 11.5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
- 11.5% DamageBuff(Fire)
- 11.5% DamageBuff(Cold)
- 11.5% DamageBuff(Energy)
- 11.5% DamageBuff(Negative)
- 11.5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
- 11.5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
- 11.3% Defense(Smashing)
- 11.3% Defense(Lethal)
- 9.13% Defense(Fire)
- 9.13% Defense(Cold)
- 12.3% Defense(Energy)
- 12.3% Defense(Negative)
- 14.8% Defense(Psionic)
- 12.9% Defense(Melee)
- 14.8% Defense(Ranged)
- 12.3% Defense(AoE)
- 3% Enhancement(Immobilize)
- 73% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 76.3% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
- 9% FlySpeed
- 129.7 HP (12.8%) HitPoints
- 9% JumpHeight
- 9% JumpSpeed
- Knockback (Mag -4)
- Knockup (Mag -4)
- MezResist(Held) 3.3%
- MezResist(Immobilize) 2.2%
- MezResist(Sleep) 3.3%
- 12.5% (0.21 End/sec) Recovery
- 78% (3.31 HP/sec) Regeneration
- 6.3% Resistance(Fire)
- 6.3% Resistance(Cold)
- 3.75% Resistance(Energy)
- 1.88% Resistance(Negative)
- 9% RunSpeed
- 2% XPDebtProtection
Code:
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Quote:
I didn't make a comparison between builds. I just said it was irrelevant both Elec/FF and Elec/Cold are already powerful mitigation combos to start with and shoving IO bonuses into each will have the same effect and still be totally irrelevant in the balance design of the sets because of the money and time sink required.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
If I'm understanding what you've said here, we've now graduated to pure science fiction.
You just compared a multi-billion influence Force Field build that has +80% Recharge and is soft capped to 5 positions with no tradeoffs in control (actually, one small one: the single target mezz is slotted for damage rather than hold) to an Electric/Cold build running on SOs. That is.. well it is going to take me a minute to catch my breath before I continue. |
Quote:
| Ok. Let's begin with your statement about Static Field. It is simply bizarre. Being able to cast around corners means the same thing as mezz protection? Well that is certainly a... unique perspective. Someone ought to let the Tankers and Scrappers know they can respec out of their mezz protection toggles. It's just wasted endurance now that we have Electric Controllers. |
Quote:
| Then you make the same claim about single target holds. "Just being able to Tesla Cage the annoyances." To think, all these years playing Controllers, and it never occurred to me I can prevent mezzes by using my level 1 power on them. Obviously I'm approaching the game incorrectly. |
Quote:
| Or, more likely, you are simply selecting random aspects of a power set and using that to claim it's basically like mezz protection, even when that claim makes no sense whatsoever. |
Quote:
| You should also probably be told that the pet you mentioned has mezz resistance, not protection, |
Quote:
| and that Electric/Cold suffers because two of its best powers (Sleet + Static Field) cancel each other. |
Quote:
| If a conflict like that existed in Force Field you would be all over it. Elec/Cold is a decent build but I could write a volume why Illusion/Cold walks all over it. I won't do that because I'm not convinced, like you are, that power sets can be reduced to slag just because another set sometimes does better in hypothetical situations I can make up for the convenience of making myself seem correct. |
Quote:
| Which brings me to something else. You keep blasting Force Field for mainly bringing protection, while ignoring the fact that the main thing Cold Defenders gain above Cold Corruptors is... protection. Sleet and Heat Loss work exactly the same for Defenders and Corruptors (and Controllers). The only powers that vary are the shields, Snow Storm (easy to work around due to cap of -75% on -Recharge), Benumb, and Infrigidate. Oh, and Frostwork, which you've said you don't like. By your logic, we should bypass Cold Defenders in favor of Corruptors, because they don't become redundant. But what, they have a secondary too? It's sure too bad Force Field doesn't get a secondary power set, then it might be able to compete. |
Quote:
| So no one should ever play a Tanker. Because the damage mitigation on any team is already 100% and therefor it makes no sense to trade offense for defense. |
Quote:
Again IOs have no value in a discussion of balancing powersets. Castle has said himself in the past they don't consider IOs when designing or balancing powers. It's an optional and massive time and money sink that yields rather consistent benefits across the board for all sets. I stopped IOing characters after fully IOing two, a lot of people like me don't find it to be worth the trouble when the sets function fine with only SOs.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Next build. I could go even more extreme with the defense if I worked harder but I'm pretty happy with where it's sitting. I also could have gone with Traps, but then I wouldn't be running around with an army of tanks as armored as I am. Note that endurance recovery looks lower than it really is because Stamina will become an inherent. I also mainly have Repulsion Field due to the character's name ("Pinball Blizzard.")
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Which brings me back to how diverse the game has gotten in power choices that even without IOs you can make a beastly build can barely be killed at the endgame. Overspecializing a support into only defensive abilities makes no sense when every other set has at least some form of offensive and some form of defensive abilities mixed in. Trick Arrow is easily the most offensive support build but still offers some mitigation debuffs, FF should be the polar opposite of that in design and not completely be without offense.