I've never been made to feel unwelcome or superfluous on my bubblers. I have been asked to alt to my bubblers more than once. I submit that the problem with forcefielders is that there isn't enough to go around, so I can play my damned scrappers more on task forces >.<
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What you saw was probably just the graphics associated with the cage effect, which show when the power is used, even if the effect is resisted. I've got Detention Field slotted up with HO's on my FF Defender, and I know for a fact it won't work on the Nictus. If you look at the combat attributes of the Nictus using Surveillance or the Power Analyzer temp power, you'll see they have some crazy status effect resistance. I don't even think a perma-dom could overcome their protection with stacked status effects, except for sleep which they only have a normal mag 4 protection against.
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Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
I've seen it done before. Maybe it was stacked Detentions or someone slotting Hami-Os (or both)? I don't remember clearly, the one time I was it was over a year ago at least.
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Not always. For example, a good team leader will pick whichever one says yes first. A bad team leader will wait around until they get just the powerset they 'need'.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
on their own both sets perform fine at end game, compared to most other support sets though they underperform due to lack of variety. It's one of those situations where given the choice between a Cold or FF, they'll always take the Cold because it offers more. That doesn't mean that FF isn't good, it just doesn't bring as much to the table as Cold does at endgame.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Turbo said:
[paraphrase]Mez protection and end protection and perfect defense ain't all that in the end game[/paraphrase] Malta group. Paging the Malta group, eight person team on line 1. ... what's that? Nobody fights Malta in the endgame because they are HARD? Huh. My first force fielder was a REVENGE tour when I got to the 40's. Malta and Carnies still remember that skinny lil' bastage with the four blaster backing band. |
Fulmens, you and I have not seen eye-to-eye on everything in the past, but this just made me laugh out loud.
People can undervalue FF all they want, its like a classic car. Yes there are new models out there that are all "shiney", but the old "betty" still makes a team smile when that motor rumbles to life.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Or it the Team Leader knows the player.... I've been picked for certain task forces just for that reason.|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
Not always. For example, a good team leader will pick whichever one says yes first. A bad team leader will wait around until they get just the powerset they 'need'.
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A known, known... and that sometimes is better then any kickass powerset in the hands of a stranger.
As to fixing FF, I rather have great defensives bubbles and weak attack powers... then "ok" bubbles and attacks. I like what my bubbler fender can do with a team, even if other folks don't think I'm bring 110% to the table. Heck, been on missions with my dark/rad/dark fender and felt like a third wheel.
/Empaths can turn three people into Jesus, one person into God, and everyone else into the twelve apostles.~Angry_Citizen
Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper
Extremely long post alert.
Original poster, something else we should probably explain is what is meant by "end game" in City of Heroes. If you've come to us from WoW or one of several other MMOs you may be under the impression that the goal of City of Heroes is to build yourself to max level and then take on a set of "end game" raids that require a specific set of powers and abilities. That's true to an extent, but doesn't capture the full picture.
The truth is that City of Heroes allows you to rise and fall in level as you take on various tasks. Sometimes your level 50 character will drop down to level 20 to do a set of missions. Sometimes it's level 35. Sometimes it's level 50, but several of your teammates are lower level and being supported by the rest of the team. At top level, presently, there are only a few major task forces/raids to consider. We're getting more soon, but no one here can speculate about what power sets will be most useful because it is new content taking CoH in an entirely new direction.
The other topic that we neglected during this discussion is an explanation of what Force Field actually does, and how defense works in this game.
Basically, in this game, Defense lets you dodge attacks. If you dodge you take zero damage. Typical enemies that are the same level as you have about a base 50% chance that they will hit you or miss you. Raising your defense by 45% puts them at a total 95% chance to miss. This is called being at the "soft cap." It's not possible to get a number better than 95% chance to miss. If you get more than that, it doesn't protect you any further, but it does protect you against getting debuffed.
For example, say you have +65% defense (so enemies have a 50% + 65% = 115% chance to miss you, which caps at 95%). What happens is that extra defense sits around as a buff that makes you suffer less if you get hit by a "defense debuff." Defense debuffs typically include Earth Control powers, sword attacks, and attacks that involve some kind of gun or bullet. The extra defense is also useful against the occasional enemy who has a +ToHit buff.
The other thing to understand about Defense is when someone says they are "soft capped," the next question that should be on your mind is "soft capped to what?" In this game, Defense is expressed as a series of "positions" and "damage types." The "positions" are "Ranged," "Melee," and "AoE." The damage types are "Fire," "Cold," Energy," "Slashing," "Lethal," and "Psionic." (There is also a "Toxic" damage type, but defense does not exist against it.)
Individual powers then have what are called "tags." These tags indicate the nature of the attack and which defense is used to dodge them. For example, the power Ice Bolt fires a small block of ice at you. It is "tagged" for Smashing, Cold, and Ranged. When you defend against this power, you use whichever defense you have that has the highest value. So, if you have 20% Smashing defense, 10% Cold, 5% ranged, you use the smashing defense to attempt to dodge.
Now, what some people have done with their characters at high levels is taken advantage of the fact that your highest defense is what is used. Smashing, Lethal, Ranged and AoE tags are very common types of attacks. Some characters use high level recipes to "soft cap" themselves to these positions. However, three things should be kept in mind about this:
- They only keep to the soft cap as long as they avoid being mezzed
- They have no protection against attacks that are tagged for things they don't have defense against
- They only operate like this as long as they are playing at a level where they can maintain their bonuses. If you drop 3 levels below your IOs, you lose the bonus. So typically these characters are only soft capped when playing at level 47 or higher
Force Field, as a set, brings defense against Ranged, AoE, Melee, Lethal, Smashing, Cold, Fire, and Energy. On a Defender, it is possible to cap these values at any time you are playing at level 22 or higher. We said Toxic doesn't have a defense type, but it does have a Resistance (which simply lowers how much damage you take when you do get hit), which Force Field provides at 40%. The only tag FF does not defend against is Psionic. In practice, this works out to it protecting against every power set in existence except for some of the attacks in Mind and Illusion Control, and anything out there that is either "untagged" (very rare) or auto-hit (extremely rare but present in one well known "end game" encounter where Force Field is valuable for other reasons).
There is another set out there called Cold Domination that does provide very good defense and lots of utility. It's a great set and I encourage you to check it out. It provides single target shields comparable to Force Field but no "big bubble" power. With a couple of people on the team providing defense, this can stack up to the 45% "soft cap" we were just discussing. However, it's still not as reliable as Force Field, because they can't do it on their own. This is actually a much bigger deal than is at first apparent. It might seem like if you manage to stack your defense up to 40%, 5% from the soft cap, that you're doing very well. It's true that 40% defense is good, but the way the math works, 45% defense is twice as good. This is a big part what I'm talking about when I say Force Field is "reliable." No matter who joins or leaves the team, you've got yourself armored to the teeth.
The second thing is the IO deal we were just talking about. Because the "big bubble" power affects the caster as well as the team, Force Field makes out great with defense IOs herself. It's extremely possible, at high levels, for the Force Fielder to have defense that outstrips all other "squishies" (at which point calling him or her "squishy" is kind of silly.) At that point you have a team of tanks, defended by a super-tank, who in addition to mezz protection also have protection from endurance drain. (I can't tell you how useful endurance drain protection really is. It is probably among the most dreaded mechanics out there, because getting hit with it will shut off your Tankers and Scrappers armor. The notion that you can "just use inspirations" is risible, frankly.)
A lot was also said earlier about just having a Controller run in and mezz the enemies. I play plenty of Controllers, and I can say the idea of doing this without some kind of backup is suicide on high level teams fighting things that are actually dangerous enough to need mezzing. The reason a FF'er works great there is it allows the Controller or Dominator (and really, everyone else) to go completely buck wild, throw caution to the wind, and charge in to every fight like a tank. It is truly transformative and cannot be expressed on a spreadsheet. You should also not trust charts that show -ToHit as a comparable advantage to Force Field's +Defense, because that number varies with the level of the enemy, can miss, and typically requires stacking to be useful or a particular target to stay alive. As I said before, what is valuable about Force Field is reliability.
All of this is not to say that Force Field is a perfect set. It has 3 amazing powers, and one really good one (Personal Force Field). The other powers, IMO, vary between "interesting" and "not that great." However, it is still a really good set. I would love for some of its powers to get a bit more effective. In the meantime, it's still a set that I invite to my team whenever I can find one.
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Explain to me first how +res doesn't make blasters less squishy since I wasn't even referring to +Def specifically in that rebuttal but damage mitigation as a whole instead.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Turbo_Ski said:
... I don't know the PPP's for blasters yet. But there are five APPs and four of them bring +Res. I let that go the first time. But next time you pretend all five APP's give you Defense, I'll pretend they all give you Body Armor. |
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You're only looking at FF being able to get up to 45% def and saying it's somehow more reliable because it excels in that single category. Where as every other set does a multitude of buff/debuffs to damage mitigate. Case in point Cold brings 40% def in addition to -102.5% recharge AoE debuff, 20% unslotted res to energy, 30% unslotted res to fire, 45% unslotted res to cold, -30% def AoE, -30% res AoE, and an AoE knockdown patch in sleet. Explain to me how all that AoE damage mitigation is inferior to a 5% def difference and status protection FF offers. A 5% +def/-tohit difference that is easily covered by multitude of sets, including a defender's dark blast.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
There is another set out there called Cold Domination that does provide very good defense and lots of utility. It's a great set and I encourage you to check it out. It provides single target shields comparable to Force Field but no "big bubble" power. With a couple of people on the team providing defense, this can stack up to the 45% "soft cap" we were just discussing. However, it's still not as reliable as Force Field, because they can't do it on their own. This is actually a much bigger deal than is at first apparent. It might seem like if you manage to stack your defense up to 40%, 5% from the soft cap, that you're doing very well. It's true that 40% defense is good, but the way the math works, 45% defense is twice as good. This is a big part what I'm talking about when I say Force Field is "reliable." No matter who joins or leaves the team, you've got yourself armored to the teeth.
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You're back to saying that FF is reliable, but Rad, Dark, Cold, Kin, and Storm are reliable in the same regard as for protecting the team from dying and they bring damage multiplying abilities. You wouldn't see any significant difference in the team's survivability if you replaced your 1 FF with any of those sets. The problem remains though that FF is the only support set that rapidly gets completely devalued as the amount of buffs/debuffs/controls/MMs/tankers/brutes increases in the team. If it had some sort of massive damage power like oil slick or some form of -Res/+dmg to spread around it wouldn't have this problem. That said, I don't see FF being any more "reliable" than any other support set, in fact I see it as only "reliable" in a vacuum.
And here we go with the exaggerated numbers again... *sigh*
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Yep. Excels is right. FF is the king of defense. Cold doesn't come close.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
You're only looking at FF being able to get up to 45% def and saying it's somehow more reliable because it excels in that single category.
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| Where as every other set does a multitude of buff/debuffs to damage mitigate. |
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| Case in point Cold brings 40% def |
Ice Shield/Glacial Shield: 23.4% defense.
Arctic Fog: 7.8% defense.
Maneuvers: 5.5% defense.
23.4 + 7.8 + 5.5 = 36.7% defense. What happened to 40%?
You've been around plenty long enough to know that the closer you get to 45%, the more important each % of defense gets. Case in point, my fire/shield scrapper dropped about 2% under the cap to ranged & AOE with the BotZ nerf. Spawns that I used to be able to walk away from, make a sandwich & come back to find him still standing there doing fine, will faceplant him easily if I'm not paying close attention now. The difference between 36.7% and 45% is a HUGE amount of incoming damage. On top of that, FF provides Toxic resist, Psi defense, end drain protection & status protection, all holes in Cold's mitigation.
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| Explain to me how all that AoE damage mitigation is inferior to a 5% def difference and status protection FF offers. A 5% +def/-tohit difference that is easily covered by multitude of sets, including a defender's dark blast. |
Explain this to me. No one shows up in Cold threads to bash the set and sing the praises of FF. Why do you feel the obsessive need to show up in every thread that mentions FF and do the same? It's almost like you feel threatened by FF or somehow insecure about Cold and have to constantly reassure yourself about it. It's quite silly.
Cold is a great set. I don't play it myself, but I'm more than happy to have one along (except for those ugly shields) on any team I'm on. I'm sure everyone here feels the same way too. No one is going out of their way to knock Cold, so don't you think it's past time to get over your little obsession with trying to 'prove' Cold is better? Seriously, playing 'my set is better than your set' is juvenile.
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| You're back to saying that FF is reliable, but Rad, Dark, Cold, Kin, and Storm are reliable in the same regard as for protecting the team from dying and they bring damage multiplying abilities. |
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| You wouldn't see any significant difference in the team's survivability if you replaced your 1 FF with any of those sets. |
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| The problem remains though that FF is the only support set that rapidly gets completely devalued as the amount of buffs/debuffs/controls/MMs/tankers/brutes increases in the team. |
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
You're only looking at FF being able to get up to 45% def and saying it's somehow more reliable because it excels in that single category. Where as every other set does a multitude of buff/debuffs to damage mitigate. Case in point Cold brings 40% def in addition to -102.5% recharge AoE debuff, 20% unslotted res to energy, 30% unslotted res to fire, 45% unslotted res to cold, -30% def AoE, -30% res AoE, and an AoE knockdown patch in sleet. Explain to me how all that AoE damage mitigation is inferior to a 5% def difference and status protection FF offers. A 5% +def/-tohit difference that is easily covered by multitude of sets, including a defender's dark blast.
You're back to saying that FF is reliable, but Rad, Dark, Cold, Kin, and Storm are reliable in the same regard as for protecting the team from dying and they bring damage multiplying abilities. You wouldn't see any significant difference in the team's survivability if you replaced your 1 FF with any of those sets. The problem remains though that FF is the only support set that rapidly gets completely devalued as the amount of buffs/debuffs/controls/MMs/tankers/brutes increases in the team. If it had some sort of massive damage power like oil slick or some form of -Res/+dmg to spread around it wouldn't have this problem. That said, I don't see FF being any more "reliable" than any other support set, in fact I see it as only "reliable" in a vacuum. |
I'm absolutely aware of what Cold Domination brings to the table (not 40% defense, as previously pointed out), but I'm not the one arguing that everything that's not a Ferrari is a stage coach. Your Cold Domination guide is actually quite good, even if I disagree with it in some places. It's a shame you're so hung up on Force Field, and simultaneously side stepping arguments for the set you know you can't win (e.g. the fact that Force Field itself benefits tremendously from IOs--the thing you've said "devalues it"--because it can soft cap to basically everything while scoring insane +Recharge from Luck of the Gambler and Red Fortunes.) You seem like a nice person but you are not arguing so much as playing contrary, for reasons I don't totally understand.
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I didn't say IOs devalue FF. I said they were irrelevant when talking about balancing sets since they require a long time/money sink to see any effect and the benefits are equally available and rather consistent amongst all sets. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'm absolutely aware of what Cold Domination brings to the table (not 40% defense, as previously pointed out), but I'm not the one arguing that everything that's not a Ferrari is a stage coach. Your Cold Domination guide is actually quite good, even if I disagree with it in some places. It's a shame you're so hung up on Force Field, and simultaneously side stepping arguments for the set you know you can't win (e.g. the fact that Force Field itself benefits tremendously from IOs--the thing you've said "devalues it"--because it can soft cap to basically everything while scoring insane +Recharge from Luck of the Gambler and Red Fortunes.) You seem like a nice person but you are not arguing so much as playing contrary, for reasons I don't totally understand.
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What devalues FF is it's lack of variety since day one when the game has changed dramatically since. FF would have been considered fine in it's current condition if we were back in Issue 2, but we've added so many new sets and improved old ones since that the set has become outdated by comparison. We have more sets now that bring -Tohit/+def in addition to other forms of damage mitigation that FF's "no offense, only defense" design philosophy hinders it greatly.
Cold is easiest to relate because they are so similar here, and while some people get oversensitive and immediately assume I hate FF and just needlessly bashing it, I'm not. I'm looking at this from a logical perspective, after having played every other support set except traps past 40, and FF is the only support set completely lacks offensive abilities. Damage mitigation is common, when I say that I speak of everything from +Def/+Res buffs to controls to tanks and MM pets soaking damage. The more mitigation that accumulates in a team the more survivable that team is, and the more survivable the less value FF offers. The same thing happens to every support set, but the difference is that having offensive abilities (-res/+dmg/+tohit/-def/+rchg/+end/+rec) sets a constant minimum value of utility for the set, where as FF just skyrockets down to zero utility.
As I said early in the thread, my opinion of FF won't change til it has either a massive damage AoE (like OSA) or an AoE -res or +dmg power to bring it up to the standard of every other support set. It's the major gaping hole that is hold the set back from being on par with rest of the support sets. Til then, it's easily the worst support set because of that, that's not a statement that it doesn't do it's job.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
I didn't say IOs devalue FF. I said they were irrelevant when talking about balancing sets since they require a long time/money sink to see any effect and the benefits are equally available and rather consistent amongst all sets.
What devalues FF is it's lack of variety since day one when the game has changed dramatically since. FF would have been considered fine in it's current condition if we were back in Issue 2, but we've added so many new sets and improved old ones since that the set has become outdated by comparison. We have more sets now that bring -Tohit/+def in addition to other forms of damage mitigation that FF's "no offense, only defense" design philosophy hinders it greatly. Cold is easiest to relate because they are so similar here, and while some people get oversensitive and immediately assume I hate FF and just needlessly bashing it, I'm not. I'm looking at this from a logical perspective, after having played every other support set except traps past 40, and FF is the only support set completely lacks offensive abilities. Damage mitigation is common, when I say that I speak of everything from +Def/+Res buffs to controls to tanks and MM pets soaking damage. The more mitigation that accumulates in a team the more survivable that team is, and the more survivable the less value FF offers. The same thing happens to every support set, but the difference is that having offensive abilities (-res/+dmg/+tohit/-def/+rchg/+end/+rec) sets a constant minimum value of utility for the set, where as FF just skyrockets down to zero utility. As I said early in the thread, my opinion of FF won't change til it has either a massive damage AoE (like OSA) or an AoE -res or +dmg power to bring it up to the standard of every other support set. It's the major gaping hole that is hold the set back from being on par with rest of the support sets. Til then, it's easily the worst support set because of that, that's not a statement that it doesn't do it's job. |
I think what frustrates me and so many other people is that rather than say "I just don't like Force Fields" you make sweeping global statements like "It's easily the worst support set" as if you were laying out a universal truth. The fact that this many people are arguing with you, and apparently argue with you every time you go on this line of attack, should tell you that it is not as cut and dried as you make out. Your "logical perspective" consists of posting numbers devoid of context and claiming they represent game performance. What they actually represent is a spreadsheet mentality and a lack of understanding of why so many people find this set attractive. The fact that you can think of a situation where a set is not the best choice does not make it the worst choice. That is ridiculous, and the furthest thing from "logical."
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No, I think people get upset in the same fashion as the Kheldian forum did prior to them getting buffed and the status-toggle change. It's a cult-following mentality where fans are unwilling to acknowledge any flaws in a set they are totally engrossed in, for they perceive that any slight made against the set is a slight made against them. The rebuttals tend to be overly exaggerated and usually not even responding to what was posted but how they perceived what was posted. A real world example of this behavior would be Scientology and its followers, and all the mudslinging that ensues when someone makes fun of their religion.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think what frustrates me and so many other people is that rather than say "I just don't like Force Fields" you make sweeping global statements like "It's easily the worst support set" as if you were laying out a universal truth. The fact that this many people are arguing with you, and apparently argue with you every time you go on this line of attack, should tell you that it is not as cut and dried as you make out. Your "logical perspective" consists of posting numbers devoid of context and claiming they represent game performance. What they actually represent is a spreadsheet mentality and a lack of understanding of why so many people find this set attractive. The fact that you can think of a situation where a set is not the best choice does not make it the worst choice. That is ridiculous, and the furthest thing from "logical."
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Contrary to what some of these "cultists" think, I don't think Cold is without flaws or the best set or anything like that. Those that have followed my posts in the past, would know this to be true with my absolute hatred with how Frostworks works mechanically and how it's hindered severely by HP caps. That said, I refuse to deny or ignore obvious flaws in any set, no matter how I or others feel about it overall.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
No, I think people get upset in the same fashion as the Kheldian forum did prior to them getting buffed and the status-toggle change. It's a cult-following mentality where fans are unwilling to acknowledge any flaws in a set they are totally engrossed in, for they perceive that any slight made against the set is a slight made against them. The rebuttals tend to be overly exaggerated and usually not even responding to what was posted but how they perceived what was posted. A real world example of this behavior would be Scientology and its followers, and all the mudslinging that ensues when someone makes fun of their religion.
Contrary to what some of these "cultists" think, I don't think Cold is without flaws or the best set or anything like that. Those that have followed my posts in the past, would know this to be true with my absolute hatred with how Frostworks works mechanically and how it's hindered severely by HP caps. That said, I refuse to deny or ignore obvious flaws in any set, no matter how I or others feel about it overall. |
I'm actually a power set Athiest.
No cult following for me. While I can see an argument for buffing Force Fields, I still like the set enough to play it, for reasons that have already been laid out. I also think some other sets (pre-buff Fiery Armor for example) needed some love. It didn't make them unplayable or "the worst."Now I also happen to have a lot of experience with Sonic Resonance, and I think a lot of what you're saying about Force Field actually applies to that set. You seem to be giving it a free pass because it "has debuff." I don't understand that at all. Sonic Resonance makes me feel like a helpless peon watching my teammates slowly be drained of life while my endurance bar sits as empty as my ability to solo. +Resistance doesn't even help teammates dodge secondary effects. IMO it is in far worse shape than Force Field, although still serviceable enough to play.
By your analysis though, every team is already 100% survivable, with no need for protection, or at least seeking protection only incidentally and not explicitly. In reality, teams do wipe, powers do miss, ambushes do happen, and teams do exemp and add team mates 10, 20, even 30 levels lower than themselves. In fact that may be the crux of the headbutting here: you are arguing survivability is a given, and we are arguing it is not.
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Oedipus, I must say I gotta give you credit for being reasonable and presenting a compelling argument even if I don't agree with it. I will say though, you almost had me convinced you were part of the "cult" when you made that comment about TA, but you've been rather straight throughout. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'm actually a power set Athiest.
No cult following for me. While I can see an argument for buffing Force Fields, I still like the set enough to play it, for reasons that have already been laid out. I also think some other sets (pre-buff Fiery Armor for example) needed some love. It didn't make them unplayable or "the worst." |
and back we go to the debate
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| Now I also happen to have a lot of experience with Sonic Resonance, and I think a lot of what you're saying about Force Field actually applies to that set. You seem to be giving it a free pass because it "has debuff." I don't understand that at all. Sonic Resonance makes me feel like a helpless peon watching my teammates slowly be drained of life while my endurance bar sits as empty as my ability to solo. +Resistance doesn't even help teammates dodge secondary effects. IMO it is in far worse shape than Force Field, although still serviceable enough to play. |
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| By your analysis though, every team is already 100% survivable, with no need for protection, or at least seeking protection only incidentally and not explicitly. In reality, teams do wipe, powers do miss, ambushes do happen, and teams do exemp and add team mates 10, 20, even 30 levels lower than themselves. In fact that may be the crux of the headbutting here: you are arguing survivability is a given, and we are arguing it is not. |
I mentioned earlier that it is highly unlikely to have an 8man team without any additional mitigation beyond the lone FF user. Also as I said before, FF is the only set that suffers in performance the higher the mitigation is on the team. Part of my problem with this effect is that it happens rapidly because of how diversified this game's mitigation is. It really only takes a 1-2 other defender/controllers or a solid tanker to put a FF on the path of being just weak blaster. Sure, you're still contributing at that point, but it's very little that you're actually adding to the team to the point it would have been better to invite another dps, and it only gets worse the more of those ATs are added. Of course, some might say, they have contributed on such teams on a support level, but I would have to ask you if you sure you weren't just idiot-proofing an already bad team players that would have more in common with Leeroy Jenkins. I believe you used the word, Stability here, but I perceive it as idiot-proofing, and I don't see that exactly as a shining achievement in FF's favor to compensate for it's lack of offense and variety.
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Since cold is so clearly head and shoulders above another defender primary, the devs should seriously look at nerfing the carp out of it.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Case in point Cold brings 40% def in addition to -102.5% recharge AoE debuff, 20% unslotted res to energy, 30% unslotted res to fire, 45% unslotted res to cold, -30% def AoE, -30% res AoE, and an AoE knockdown patch in sleet. Explain to me how all that AoE damage mitigation is inferior to a 5% def difference and status protection FF offers. A 5% +def/-tohit difference that is easily covered by multitude of sets, including a defender's dark blast.
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And, FWIW, I'd rather have equivalent effect buffs than debuffs; you don't have to wait for buffs to land before charging in.
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And if that's not a case of the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
It's a cult-following mentality where fans are unwilling to acknowledge any flaws in a set they are totally engrossed in, for they perceive that any slight made against the set is a slight made against them. The rebuttals tend to be overly exaggerated and usually not even responding to what was posted but how they perceived what was posted. A real world example of this behavior would be Scientology and its followers, and all the mudslinging that ensues when someone makes fun of their religion.
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| I mentioned earlier that it is highly unlikely to have an 8man team without any additional mitigation beyond the lone FF user. Also as I said before, FF is the only set that suffers in performance the higher the mitigation is on the team. Part of my problem with this effect is that it happens rapidly because of how diversified this game's mitigation is. It really only takes a 1-2 other defender/controllers or a solid tanker to put a FF on the path of being just weak blaster. Sure, you're still contributing at that point, but it's very little that you're actually adding to the team to the point it would have been better to invite another dps, and it only gets worse the more of those ATs are added. Of course, some might say, they have contributed on such teams on a support level, but I would have to ask you if you sure you weren't just idiot-proofing an already bad team players that would have more in common with Leeroy Jenkins. I believe you used the word, Stability here, but I perceive it as idiot-proofing, and I don't see that exactly as a shining achievement in FF's favor to compensate for it's lack of offense and variety. |
I still feel like this is an example of card stacking. You are listing only negative possibilities and not accounting for positive things as advantages. Where do you grant something to Force Field, you immediately write it off as a minor advantage.
Mezz protection is huge. We don't get to go: "Well Force Field has mezz protection, so that's one thing, but Cold has minus this and that and this and that and that's four things, so Force Field is one fourth as powerful as Cold." The relative weight of each advantage has to be accounted for. Force Field has effortless mezz protection for the caster (an ENORMOUS advantage on its own), team mates, and their pets. To call that a small benefit is really stretching it.
Getting mezzed is scary as heck, especially at high levels when even a seconds delay retreating or eating a green means death. Not having to deal with that at all is really useful, as is the ability to instantly revive with no stun by eating a wakie during heated combat. My Dominator character died about 40 times on teams during the past weekend (ok, I played a lot) and about half of those deaths can be traced to getting mezzed. We actually had a Cold Domination Controller with us, but despite being well played she wasn't enough to stop me (and the other squishies) from dying over and over due to an extremely difficult set of missions for the team makeup we had.
The other thing is that a difference of 5% (it's actually more like 7%) looks small on paper but in practice is tremendous. An enemy with a 5% chance to hit you will hit you 1 in 20 times. An enemy with a 10% chance to hit you will hit you 1 in 10 times. That's twice as often. An enemy with a 13% chance to hit you will hit you 1 in 7.6 times. When at high levels a single attack can easily take off 800 or more points of damage every attack counts. This is what reliability is all about. And why -ToHit doesn't really get a showing; its useful but extremely variable.
I'm tempted to write more about the fact that just because a team has good protection doesn't mean it specifically has Defense, but I'm exhausted. I will leave it at simply: some sets, like Electric, Dark Armor, Regen, and Fiery Armor are "survivable" but still "improvable." Also, dead Controllers and Defenders do no controlling or defending. Despite your assurances to the contrary, I find team members get dead quite frequently, for a variety of different reasons.
Quote:
Repulsion Bomb.
|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
while some people get oversensitive and immediately assume I hate FF and just needlessly bashing it, I'm not. I'm looking at this from a logical perspective
... FF is the only support set completely lacks offensive abilities. |
Quote:
I'm not seeing massive damage or -Res/+dmg associated with Repulsion bomb. Only slightly higher damage than defender non-pet AoE blasts for double the recharge and double the cast time.
|
Originally Posted by Westley
Repulsion Bomb.
|
You said "COMPLETELY lacks offensive abilities". Repulsion Bomb is an offensive ability. Thus, your statement was incorrect.
Hell, even the insignificant damage that Force Bolt does is technically "offensive ability".
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
I'm not seeing massive damage or -Res/+dmg associated with Repulsion bomb. Only slightly higher damage than defender non-pet AoE blasts for double the recharge and double the cast time.
|
I'm curious about your opinion of various Force Field builds. I don't happen to have a Defender build on hand, but I do have an unfinished version of my Elec/Force Field Controller. I'm thinking of dropping some of the extra defense to switch to the Mu Mastery set so I can summon (and shield) a pet that can heal me and the team and help some with endurance costs. Some of what I've done here could be done better with Traps if the only goal is self-defense, but it wasn't. I wanted the ability to shield allies too. Regardless, this is a build Cold Domination could never match (and again, its mezz protected so that it can leave its aura on 24/7 and have very little risk of ever getting slept because of capped Psionic defense).
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
electric ff: Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Electric Control
Secondary Power Set: Force Field
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Tesla Cage -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg(A), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(3), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Dev'n-Hold%(17)
Level 1: Personal Force Field -- Ksmt-ToHit+(A)
Level 2: Deflection Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(7)
Level 4: Chain Fences -- Ragnrk-Knock%(A), GravAnch-Hold%(7), Acc-I(9)
Level 6: Jolting Chain -- Apoc-Dmg(A), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(9), Apoc-Dam%(11), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(15), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(17)
Level 8: Conductive Aura -- Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(A), Efficacy-EndMod(29), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(29)
Level 10: Insulation Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(11)
Level 12: Static Field -- FtnHyp-Sleep/Rchg(A), FtnHyp-Sleep/EndRdx(13), FtnHyp-Sleep(13), FtnHyp-Acc/Sleep/Rchg(34), FtnHyp-Acc/Rchg(37)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 16: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(25), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(25), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 18: Paralyzing Blast -- Lock-Acc/Hold(A), Lock-Acc/Rchg(19), Lock-Rchg/Hold(19), Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(21), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(21), Lock-%Hold(23)
Level 20: Dispersion Bubble -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(23), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(39), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 22: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 24: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GA-3defTpProc(39), Aegis-ResDam(40), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(43), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 26: Synaptic Overload -- CoPers-Conf(A), CoPers-Conf/Rchg(27), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg(27), CoPers-Acc/Rchg(31), CoPers-Conf/EndRdx(31), CoPers-Conf%(34)
Level 28: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def(A), HO:Cyto(40), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(46)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(31), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(43), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 32: Gremlins -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(33), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(33), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), BldM'dt-Acc(34), BldM'dt-Dmg(37)
Level 35: Repulsion Bomb -- Det'tn-Acc/Dmg(A), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx(36), Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg(36), Det'tn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rng(37)
Level 38: Super Speed -- Zephyr-ResKB(A)
Level 41: Poisonous Ray -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg(A), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(42), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Dev'n-Hold%(46)
Level 44: Scorpion Shield -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Summon Tarantula -- C'Arms-Acc/Rchg(A), C'Arms-Acc/Dmg(48), C'Arms-Dmg/EndRdx(48), C'Arms-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), C'Arms-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(50), C'Arms-+Def(Pets)(50)
Level 49: Disruptor Blast -- HO:Nucle(A), Dmg-I(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 4: Ninja Run
------------
Set Bonus Totals:
- 17% DamageBuff(Smashing)
- 17% DamageBuff(Lethal)
- 17% DamageBuff(Fire)
- 17% DamageBuff(Cold)
- 17% DamageBuff(Energy)
- 17% DamageBuff(Negative)
- 17% DamageBuff(Toxic)
- 17% DamageBuff(Psionic)
- 5% Defense
- 6% Defense(Smashing)
- 6% Defense(Lethal)
- 16.3% Defense(Fire)
- 16.3% Defense(Cold)
- 12.3% Defense(Energy)
- 12.3% Defense(Negative)
- 18.5% Defense(Psionic)
- 6% Defense(Melee)
- 18.5% Defense(Ranged)
- 19.1% Defense(AoE)
- 2.5% Enhancement(Held)
- 4% Enhancement(Confused)
- 73.8% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
- 42% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 137.3 HP (13.5%) HitPoints
- Knockback (Mag -4)
- Knockup (Mag -4)
- MezResist(Held) 8.8%
- MezResist(Sleep) 1.65%
- MezResist(Stun) 1.65%
- 12% (0.2 End/sec) Recovery
- 90% (3.82 HP/sec) Regeneration
- 1.89% Resistance(Smashing)
- 1.89% Resistance(Lethal)
- 2.52% Resistance(Fire)
- 2.52% Resistance(Cold)
- 1.88% Resistance(Energy)
- 5% RunSpeed
- 1% XPDebtProtection
Code:
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Quote:
As I previously mentioned, status protection is no where near as valuable as it used to be and personally I find controls the better option since not having it fire off in the first place is always the better option.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I still feel like this is an example of card stacking. You are listing only negative possibilities and not accounting for positive things as advantages. Where do you grant something to Force Field, you immediately write it off as a minor advantage.
Mezz protection is huge. We don't get to go: "Well Force Field has mezz protection, so that's one thing, but Cold has minus this and that and this and that and that's four things, so Force Field is one fourth as powerful as Cold." The relative weight of each advantage has to be accounted for. Force Field has effortless mezz protection for the caster (an ENORMOUS advantage on its own), team mates, and their pets. To call that a small benefit is really stretching it. |
Quote:
| Getting mezzed is scary as heck, especially at high levels when even a seconds delay retreating or eating a green means death. Not having to deal with that at all is really useful, as is the ability to instantly revive with no stun by eating a wakie during heated combat. My Dominator character died about 40 times on teams during the past weekend (ok, I played a lot) and about half of those deaths can be traced to getting mezzed. We actually had a Cold Domination Controller with us, but despite being well played she wasn't enough to stop me (and the other squishies) from dying over and over due to an extremely difficult set of missions for the team makeup we had. |
Quote:
| The other thing is that a difference of 5% (it's actually more like 7%) looks small on paper but in practice is tremendous. An enemy with a 5% chance to hit you will hit you 1 in 20 times. An enemy with a 10% chance to hit you will hit you 1 in 10 times. That's twice as often. An enemy with a 13% chance to hit you will hit you 1 in 7.6 times. When at high levels a single attack can easily take off 800 or more points of damage every attack counts. This is what reliability is all about. And why -ToHit doesn't really get a showing; its useful but extremely variable. |
Quote:
| I'm tempted to write more about the fact that just because a team has good protection doesn't mean it specifically has Defense, but I'm exhausted. I will leave it at simply: some sets, like Electric, Dark Armor, Regen, and Fiery Armor are "survivable" but still "improvable." Also, dead Controllers and Defenders do no controlling or defending. Despite your assurances to the contrary, I find team members get dead quite frequently, for a variety of different reasons. |
Quote:
Because the situation I was in was actually real, where the situation you are imagining me in is conjectual and created with the intent of being able to say you are correct. The fact is getting mezzed can kill you. You are perhaps the only person I have encountered who claims otherwise. Or haven't you seen the term "zzz" typed in your team window?| Sorry but why was your dominator dying to mezzes? ST hold/disorients in blast sets kept all corruptors/blasters/defenders relatively mez-free throughout the game and with inspiration conversion I rarely run out of break frees in mission for when I do get hit. It's even less likely on my dom and controller because of AoE holds stacking on top of ST holds right from the start. |
Quote:
| -Recharge and -Res/-Def makes for less attempted attacks in the first place, it's a very effective combo when combined with cold's shields and fog and isn't something you're taking into account. It's not as significant of a difference in protection as you would like to believe. |
Regardless I have to head to work now. I'm sure we will continue when I get back.
I've seen it done before. Maybe it was stacked Detentions or someone slotting Hami-Os (or both)? I don't remember clearly, the one time I was it was over a year ago at least.