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Originally Posted by streetlight
Well... not quite. No AT is absolutely necessary in COH at any level. The MMO "trinity" is still very effective, but not mandatory here like it may be in other games. Support is still very helpful, though.
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This (again).
However, I have a level 50 bubbler and I've never been not invited to any team I asked to join. And the effect of my bubbles on any team is very noticeable. Just the other day I was on some task force... forget exactly which one... and one of our healers (a Dark Miasma of some stripe) said "Forgot I had a heal button."
Stuff like that tells me I'm being effective on a team. Sure you're not needed. There's always some combination of other ATs that can take your place. But you're never unwelcome. Just be confident, take both the two small bubbles and the big one, slot the bejeesus out of your bubbles, and take Maneuvers. ("Bubblers" who proudly announce to a team "I only took Dispersion Bubble" make me itch in bad places.)
I like to follow the tank/meatshield into the spawn and hover just above them, or slightly back so as to catch both the melee and the ranged folks in Dispersion Bubble. I also bubble absolutely everyone on the team. Even though I skipped Stamina, I slot enough EndRedux where it's easy to do.
I love my bubblers, but I know that cold is more diversified with benumb, heat loss, and sleet just to name a few. I also know that forcefields provides 95% defense, mez protection, and endurance drain protection. If your team is primarily ranged attackers, you can use force bubble to deny almost all melee attacks.
Having said that, if I were a blaster, I certainly wouldn't mind having BOTH on the team.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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We're talking end-game here when even blasters have access to +res/+def self abilities through APP/PPP and -tohit/+def abilities are all over the place in teams. In this environment an excess of +Def is heavily devalued, which leaves FF only with KB control (easily the weakest control and negated by immobilizes) and status protection (which is almost irrelevant because of the abundance of sleeps and easily obtained break frees). It should also be noted that End resist doesn't have much weight because by 50 people have their end management handled and there is plenty of +end/+rec flying about on teams to cover the damage of a sapper hit. Overall this makes for a pretty weak set end game even compared to Sonic which at least offers -Res, stronger status protection, -Tohit, -Def, -recharge, and aoe knockdown + mag 2 hold in the situation that +res is capped (something far more rare than Def capped).|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Forcefields was never designed for offense and it's certainly not the weakest support set. It is in fact, the strongest support set. It's the only support power set out there that can transform an entire team of squishies into mez protected tanks.
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No one is arguing that FF doesn't give superior +Def and decent status protection. The problem is that it's the only things it offers, because it specializes so much in so little that it handicaps itself when every other set has bloomed.
Turbo said:
[paraphrase]Mez protection and end protection and perfect defense ain't all that in the end game[/paraphrase]
Malta group. Paging the Malta group, eight person team on line 1.
... what's that? Nobody fights Malta in the endgame because they are HARD? Huh.
My first force fielder was a REVENGE tour when I got to the 40's. Malta and Carnies still remember that skinny lil' bastage with the four blaster backing band.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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The game has changed a lot since the early days. Malta and Carnies aren't as tough as they were prior to CoV. We have Break Frees now, the ability to convert other inspirations into BFs and CABs, more variety in sets on teams, more options in personal power choice, and toggles not dropping when mezzed. All of this eases the burden against end drains and status ailments and lessens their impact on teams. |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Turbo said:
[paraphrase]Mez protection and end protection and perfect defense ain't all that in the end game[/paraphrase] Malta group. Paging the Malta group, eight person team on line 1. ... what's that? Nobody fights Malta in the endgame because they are HARD? Huh. My first force fielder was a REVENGE tour when I got to the 40's. Malta and Carnies still remember that skinny lil' bastage with the four blaster backing band. |
All this lowers the potential worth of FF's status protection and end drain resist, which wouldn't be a problem if those along with +Def weren't all that the set had to offer. The set is weak because it overspecializes on things that have become less important as the game has changed and as power variety increases.
I was on a ship raid last night, the only bubbler... once in the bowl, I had it pretty easy so I started paying attention to other non-game things. I died due to AOEs attacks, and my team soon followed me.
So don't tell me a bubbler can't be as important and vital as a team's tank at times. A full team, wiped within a minute after I fell. Perhaps chance I will admit, but I doubt it.
As for endurance drain, try a Katie TF with a bubbler, then without one. In one, you be eating blues by the ton... the other, easy street as you defeat Mary ten times.
Situational, yes... but then no archetypes/powers can shine 100% of the time either.
/Empaths can turn three people into Jesus, one person into God, and everyone else into the twelve apostles.~Angry_Citizen
Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
...except in offense and variety. It's easily the weakest of the support sets end game because of that and it along with Sonic needs revision. Particularly in how detention/cage works (like why aren't these timed toggles?) and complete redesign of Force Bubble, Repulsion Field, and Sonic Repulsion.
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I have to disagree. When I am leading a PUG there is one power set I will trip over myself to invite to the team. That power set is Force Field. Once I get that bubbler it doesn't matter who joins or leaves, because a FF'er brings something no one else can: stability.
And by the way I do this on my Cold Domination character.
And yeah, stability. FF+ 7 Blasters? Let's do it. FF + 7 Tankers? Why when you could have had seven Blasters with Tanker level protection?
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Don't know where you thought anyone was talking about Tanks here. We're talking about FF compared to other support sets in an endgame environment. |
Originally Posted by Pinkpup
I was on a ship raid last night, the only bubbler... once in the bowl, I had it pretty easy so I started paying attention to other non-game things. I died due to AOEs attacks, and my team soon followed me.
So don't tell me a bubbler can't be as important and vital as a team's tank at times. A full team, wiped within a minute after I fell. Perhaps chance I will admit, but I doubt it. As for endurance drain, try a Katie TF with a bubbler, then without one. In one, you be eating blues by the ton... the other, easy street as you defeat Mary ten times. Situational, yes... but then no archetypes/powers can shine 100% of the time either. |
Ship raids aren't the best example for FF here, since half the mez tossed out is sleeps anyway and the entire encounter is reliant on stacking obscene amounts of buffs and debuffs. As buff/debuff variety increases, FF's value to the team decreases, though it just takes a lot longer for that to become apparent on a ship raid because you need a lot more than the average 8 man STF/LRSF.
Katie TF's end drain can be handled by many support sets pretty easily. That TF is a breeze with any Kin, Rad, Dark, Cold, Kin, Empathy, and Storm on the team or any controller/dom for that matter. Thing is those previous mention sets bring more than endurance insurance and protection, they bring offensive capabilities as well which in itself strengthens defensive buffs/debuffs.
I'm going to assume you were the only support AT on the katie and did not have enough support ATs on the ship raid, either way the team needed additional support ATs for the task. That being the case, any support set helps to ensure the team doesn't die, the difference is that FF offers almost nothing if the team is already in no danger of dying. It's a set that only performs well in the absence of other support sets, which is problem when you need to start stacking support sets for endgame encounters.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
The game has changed a lot since the early days. Malta and Carnies aren't as tough as they were prior to CoV. We have Break Frees now, the ability to convert other inspirations into BFs and CABs, more variety in sets on teams, more options in personal power choice, and toggles not dropping when mezzed. All of this eases the burden against end drains and status ailments and lessens their impact on teams.
All this lowers the potential worth of FF's status protection and end drain resist, which wouldn't be a problem if those along with +Def weren't all that the set had to offer. The set is weak because it overspecializes on things that have become less important as the game has changed and as power variety increases. |
I'm sorry but again I have to disagree. "You can use a breakfree" is like saying "You can use a red for damage instead of -Resistance" or "You can use greens instead of a heal." I would normally not argue this vehemently, but since this is a discussion with a new player I want my opinion to register.
I also want to point out that for some reason you are neglecting to mention that among the beneficiaries of recent changes are Force Fielders themselves. They no longer drop Dispersion Bubble if they get slept, it just suppresses. They are also able to IO themselves to astounding levels. I have an Elec/FF Controller build that is soft capped to Ranged, AoE, Slash, Lethal, Psionic, and Energy, and something like 3 points away from being capped to Fire and Cold. That's on a Controller. A Defender, with it's better values, should be able to do even better.
Additionally, AoE mezz protection prevents ally toggles from dropping, which is what keeps them soft capped in the first place. Seriously. Take a look at any Blaster, Controller, Defender or Corruptor build that is IOed for defense and the first thing you'll see is that getting mezzed lowers their defense so that their house of cards instantly fails.
Again, not trying to be ugly or start a fight, but I do feel just as strongly about Force Field being a valuable set as you feel against it. Fewer players playing Force Field means fewer of them for me to recruit to my team.
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You're assuming that teams are specifically picked compositions when they are actually a mix of a variety of ATs and builds. In this case, it's not stability, but redundancy that FF brings. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I have to disagree. When I am leading a PUG there is one power set I will trip over myself to invite to the team. That power set is Force Field. Once I get that bubbler it doesn't matter who joins or leaves, because a FF'er brings something no one else can: stability.
And by the way I do this on my Cold Domination character. And yeah, stability. FF+ 7 Blasters? Let's do it. FF + 7 Tankers? Why when you could have had seven Blasters with Tanker level protection? |
What is more likely,
FF + 7 blasters without APP/PPP shields
OR
FF + any combination of tankers/brutes/masterminds/doms/controllers/defenders/corruptors/VEATs/HEATS/Scrappers (all ATs that bring some form of self or team protection)
Now ask yourself, which team is FF going to bring less to. FF's value decreases the more variety you add to the group or in other words the more survivability the group obtains thru their powers or others. Stability would be if FF had some offensive component to keep it worthwhile to have around when survivability is already moderate or high.
PS: if I'm looking for the "stability" as you call it, I would invite any controller instead.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
PS: if I'm looking for the "stability" as you call it, I would invite any controller instead.
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THIS Controller, and his 10 Controller Alts, would like you to invite a Force Fielder to back me up, because Force Field is very helpful. :P
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Status ailments are binary and not a constant effect as damage output is. It's something you react to and not constantly needing to maintain and it's frankly not something you'll have to be popping non-stop to maintain to see the benefit as red inspirations are. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'm sorry but again I have to disagree. "You can use a breakfree" is like saying "You can use a red for damage instead of -Resistance" or "You can use greens instead of a heal." I would normally not argue this vehemently, but since this is a discussion with a new player I want my opinion to register.
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| I also want to point out that for some reason you are neglecting to mention that among the beneficiaries of recent changes are Force Fielders themselves. They no longer drop Dispersion Bubble if they get slept, it just suppresses. They are also able to IO themselves to astounding levels. I have an Elec/FF Controller build that is soft capped to Ranged, AoE, Slash, Lethal, Psionic, and Energy, and something like 3 points away from being capped to Fire and Cold. That's on a Controller. A Defender, with it's better values, should be able to do even better. |
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| Additionally, AoE mezz protection prevents ally toggles from dropping, which is what keeps them soft capped in the first place. Seriously. Take a look at any Blaster, Controller, Defender or Corruptor build that is IOed for defense and the first thing you'll see is that getting mezzed lowers their defense so that their house of cards instantly fails. |
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| Again, not trying to be ugly or start a fight, but I do feel just as strongly about Force Field being a valuable set as you feel against it. Fewer players playing Force Field means fewer of them for me to recruit to my team. |
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And I would say Rad, Cold, Kin, Dark, Empathy, Sonic, Storm, Traps, Trick Arrow, Pain, and Thermal would better options than FF since they bring abilities that enhance your control abilities (+tohit/-def/+recharge and mag stacking) and your damage (-res/+dmg/-def/+tohit/+recharge). This is of course with additional protection that compliments the dmg mitigated by your controls just fine instead of overcompensating past the need of your controls and offering none of the previous mention benefits.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
THIS Controller, and his 10 Controller Alts, would like you to invite a Force Fielder to back me up, because Force Field is very helpful. :P
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EDIT: if it's any comfort, I think Poison is a far weaker set than FF. Though that isn't totally fair since it was design solely as a MM support set.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
And I would say Rad, Cold, Kin, Dark, Empathy, Sonic, Storm, Traps, Trick Arrow, Pain, and Thermal would better options than FF since they bring abilities that enhance your control abilities (+tohit/-def/+recharge and mag stacking) and your damage (-res/+dmg/-def/+tohit/+recharge). This is of course with additional protection that compliments the dmg mitigated by your controls just fine instead of overcompensating past the need of your controls and offering none of the previous mention benefits.
EDIT: if it's any comfort, I think Poison is a far weaker set than FF. Though that isn't totally fair since it was design solely as a MM support set. |
Worse than Trick Arrow?
Ok you just lost all credibility.
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Have you played a Trick Arrow? It's compliments a controller quite nicely on a team by providing additional control with OSA, Ice arrow, and EMP, additional damage mitigation with PGA and Glue, and better target painting than Rad with OSA and Acid arrow. That's in addition to the massive damage OSA puts out when lit. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Worse than Trick Arrow?
Ok you just lost all credibility. |
What does FF bring to compliment a controller's controls? Only +Def and status protection, the latter being pretty easily covered by a controller's ST hold.
That's not even mentioning how all those sets I mentioned previously stack better with whatever the controller's support set is than FF does.
Wow look what I started.... 
Update: With all the controversy, I jumped on the DPS bandwagon and am having "bliss-full" fun. I'll let others worry about the strife that is otherwise known as "support".
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That's the thing, a lot of support sets can lay on the damage as good as a blaster can and tank stuff tankers can if you build and play them right. Dark/Dark/Dark defenders has for a long-time been a popular choice because of this versatility.
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Originally Posted by Splat-Fu
Wow look what I started....
Update: With all the controversy, I jumped on the DPS bandwagon and am having "bliss-full" fun. I'll let others worry about the strife that is otherwise known as "support". |
Turbo, you talk about +def being a common sight end game... but I don't see it. I may be in the minority of the forums for blaster builds, but as many people have said, forum builds are a small fraction of what you see in-game. In game I find that on teams there isn't all that much +def going around without an FF or cold.
I am slowly completing my blaster's final IO build which will actually have less than 10% def to any position, so FF is a great boon for me.
Turbo_Ski said:
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... I don't know the PPP's for blasters yet. But there are five APPs and four of them bring +Res. I let that go the first time. But next time you pretend all five APP's give you Defense, I'll pretend they all give you Body Armor.
| FF + 7 blasters without APP/PPP shields |
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
For a heavily IO'd team I would say FF loses ground, but for everything else then FF is probably the best.
They have the ability unlike any other set to turn an ordinary team into a team that fears nothing and goes on an 'arresting' rampage.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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TS is just still upset that FAR more FFers are made than Cold even though Cold is technically better "on paper".
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Cranky generalizations are just that.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
This.
A lot of people who come to this game and play support, and I'm going to try to be generous here, are used to being ABSOLUTELY NEEDED for the team to succeed. And they play healers. When CoH changes, and they need to be buffers more than healers, and they're not quite as ABSOLUTELY NEEDED, they react badly. Screw generous. Healers show up and expect to have their ***** kissed for using 1/3 of one powerset, and they get to level 20 and all of a sudden the tank doesn't actually need healing, and the controllers are cutting incoming damage to very low levels, and the Scrapper is somewhere entirely different, and the Blasters are binary (HP at 100% or 0), and nobody's saying "Nice Heals", and they flounce. |
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Don't worry. Almost every time I see Force Fields mentioned, Turbo has to trash the set and praise Cold Dom. Especially if Cold Dom was mentioned anywhere near FF. Even if in a completely unrelated comment that did not draw any comparison between the two or any other set. And it's always about this fabled end-game where everyone has the perfect build and steamrolls every mob in about five seconds.|
Originally Posted by Splat-Fu
Wow look what I started....
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FF is strong. Soft-capped team by level 22? Heck. Yes. Additional combat manipulation with knockback/down and repel? Heck yes! You have to be creative, but there's nothing like herding a whole room into a tight circle and letting about 5 mobs get AoEd to death about as fast as the team could normally kill one mob. Even better is when you do it on the ITF rooftops (where'd that vid go?). Or you can use Repulsion Field so a teammate can use Rest mid-fight and the mobs trying to melee them simply bounce off your shield repeatedly.
And Detention Field, when used properly, is quite awesome. Situational? Sure, but what powerful skill in this game isn't? Removing Imperious' healing Nictus from the fight, shutting down one of Recluse's towers, telling Reichsman "No, you don't get one of your AV back-ups", and more is extremely awesome. Or on the lower end, you can give your level 16 team trying to take on AV-ranked Nocturne a moment to rest and regain health and endurance by putting her in time-out mid-fight. Of course, used wrong and Detention Field becomes a tool for suffering and despair among your own team. And... let's not even start to talk about Personal Force Field and how it let's you take alpha strikes better than many tanks from level one on. Or tank better than a lot of tanks.
Force Field is good in the hands of someone just shielding and going. It's great in the hands of someone who can manage knockback well. It's down right awesome with creative application of its unusual and oft ignored powers. Sure, a lot of them are situational. But, if all we ever took were non-situational attacks, we'd all be Blasters with two or three single target attacks and use nothing else.
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Detention Field won't work on the Nictus. They have much more status protection than a normal AV. As far as I know, the only status effect that they are susceptible to is Sleep.
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Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
Removing Imperious' healing Nictus from the fight
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P.S. It's a game. Have fun. If a set is fun for you, screw the nay sayers.