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Heals are reactive to damage and have no cap to speak of. You can't quantify the damage intake without quantifying the total mitigation at that point and standardize the amount of constant damage being put out. That said it's assumed the heals decay as the team takes less damage via mitigation.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
So this whole time you've been telling us controls > force field, and yet the first thing it says on your spreadsheet is "Controls and heals are unquantifiable and can't be properly modeled?" Well at least it explains your claim that controls are infinitely powerful and able to defeat any argument about adding protection.
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Controls are binary, they are either 100% protection or zero at any given point. They decay the same as heals as buff/debuff mitigation increases and they aren't as needed. Controls do trump all mitigation though when they are in effect.
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You're waffling. If the scenario that makes Force Field "easily the worst buff set" is the situation where mitigation approaches 100% as you've stated, then it stands to reason that in your view situations where 100% mitigation is reached are common. If it is NOT common for that to be true, then it's logically impossible to reach the necessary conclusion, as you have presented it.| I've not once said that 100% mitigation scenario was common, only that mitigation in general was common. |
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| IOs aren't considered when balancing sets because of the money/time sink cost and them being a constant across all sets. |
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| Mez Protection is equivalent in value to an ST hold, since they both are quite reliable at preventing mez. |
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| End resist has little weight by 50 since there are a ton of +end/+rec and end discount powers flying about and it's a common for players to already have their end managed via slotting and/or previously mentioned powers. |
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Really? I find it pretty compelling actually. I see all the time in the defender and tanker forums people who say you can't save the stupid. Well, FF can. I think that is a pretty strong argument myself.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
So you're saying FF doesn't rapidly decay in utility if you play worse? You're not presenting a very strong argument if the only thing you can come up with is "FF is great for idiots" as a contribution on teams with already high mitigation.
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Also, you are missing my point. When you have bubbles, tactics that will kill the enemy quickly, but are normally stupid because they will likely get the teamed killed, become possible. When I say excessive FF lets me play like an idiot, what I thought I was strongly implying was that it allows me to go faster, precisely because I do not have to worry about dying. I don't have to wait for the tanker. I don't have to wait for the Sleet. I don't have to wait for RI. I don't have to wait to see which way my team is going. Pure scrapperlock from every teammate is fun for me (one type of fun, I would not want to play that way all the time).
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
2 Cold or 2 FFs will cap the team's +Def, with the 2nd only adding a partial contribution on the +Def since it is the one that caps it off the rest of the way. The difference is that 2 Colds are bringing heck of a lot more than 2 FFs are at this point because of the wider variety of effects. The gap only increases more when we compare 3 cold to 3 FF since FF has reached it's minimum by this point where as cold can still contribute more through +Res(nrg), -Res, and more targets to infrig/benumb. That's only an example, the same would be true when comparing 3 kin to 3 FF or 3 rad to 3 FF and so on. FF's rapid contribution decay is directly caused by it's lack of variety.
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I do not believe I would call the contribution decay rapid, when I have to get to three teammates dedicated to +defense in order to start rendering the FF "not useful". Sure, on a team with two colds or two FF or one cold and one FF, adding another FF is not very useful. I honestly do not find that to be a big concern in game. That being said, it may be interesting to see how VEATs affect this in the long-term.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
In a vacuum, FF works fine and does a great job at protecting the team, it only underperforms in comparison to other support sets when more mitigation is added. Again this is due to it's lack of variety.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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And death trumps controls. I guess that means controls are useless. After all, the death of enemies on all teams approaches 100%.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Controls do trump all mitigation though when they are in effect.
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Again you're thinking in black and white where as I'm thinking through the entire spectrum of greys in between. When I say mitigation is common, I'm referring to all forms of mitigation from tankers soaking damage to buffs/debuffs to controls to even damage reducing the number of enemy attacks. All of those work as a whole and to focus only one very specific aspect hampers a set like FF the more diverse the scenario gets.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
You're waffling. If the scenario that makes Force Field "easily the worst buff set" is the situation where mitigation approaches 100% as you've stated, then it stands to reason that in your view situations where 100% mitigation is reached are common. If it is NOT common for that to be true, then it's logically impossible to reach the necessary conclusion, as you have presented it.
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| What does what is considered when balancing a set have to do with it? I think most people commenting on the boards want to know about actual performance, not whatever theoretical model was used to invent the set. It is also not at all true that all sets benefit equally from IOs. Heck, one of the main activities archetype forums are used for is finding IO builds for characters. To claim a significant portion of the game has no bearing on the value of a set isn't just illogical, it's outright dishonest. IOs do not exist in a make believe world. If I don't get to say "In my version of the game, everyone plays a Blaster!" you don't get to write off an entire segment of the game (and what I think virtually everyone here except you would have interpretted as "end game") because it is inconvenient to your spreadsheet. |
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| If this were actually true why would any Controller take Indomitible Will as a power? Be careful how you answer this. I'll give you a hint too so you don't step right into the trap. What do Ice, Fire and Electric Control all have in common that flies in the face of your statements about mezzes and inspirations? This should be a very easy question if you have as much familiarity as you claim to. |
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| A better answer would have been "Yes that's an advantage Force Field has in those situations." Instead, as predicted, you appeal to the hypothetical team with "end discount powers flying about." Yes, yes, I love those teams. A lot of time, they have a Force Fielder, which prevents me from losing all my endurance. |
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Point out this mystery power that instantly kills any foe in the game, and I might take that comment seriously.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
And death trumps controls. I guess that means controls are useless. After all, the death of enemies on all teams approaches 100%.
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Which is exactly where Turbo's whole argument collapses. There is no such thing as 100% mitigation. In over two years of playing, and running everything from basic PuGs to Master TF runs to all-AT superteams to teams where every player was fully IO'd out with billion+ builds, I have almost never seen a team that doesn't benefit significantly from FF. The only exception I have ever seen is teams where everyone is already defense capped such as an all-VEAT team with stacked Maneuvers & Mind Link. I'm sure Turbo will see that as proof that FF is the 'worst' set again, but I can count the number of entirely softcapped teams I've seen in two years (without a bubbler being on the team) on one hand, and every one was an all-VEAT group.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The problem is it's flawed logic that's based on your subjective opinion about the frequency of a particular event (teams already being 100% survivable).
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I've run all-controller teams and even with all that control and mitigation, people still faceplanted with regularity. Of course, we were running on maximum difficulty at all times and often up against +5 enemies. A bubbler would have added significantly to the survivability of even a team like that.
And going to such great lengths to 'prove' that FF is subpar because having more than one of them on a team is redundant just demonstrates how obsessive she is about bashing FF. A spreadsheet? Seriously?
Saying more than one FF is redundant is sort of a "Well, duh." argument, which everyone already knows. It really only showcases the strength of the FF set. That one FF Defender can provide more survivability than ANYTHING ELSE IN THE ENTIRE GAME.
Would I be glad to see some buffs to FF? Sure. However, at this point, and keeping the cottage rule in mind, I'm not sure exactly what can be done to add offensive power to the set. And I would hate to see adding something like -res , -regen or +dmg to the set be balanced by a lowering of defense values. As it is, -res and -regen are so common, I'm not sure I even see a need for those to begin with.
The beauty of FF is that it allows a team to go all-offense, with almost no worry about mitigation at all. That's where I really don't see the huge need to add offensive buffs/debuffs to FF. FF provides offense already through other players. With the bubbler along, that Empath doesn't need to heal much at all. He can concentrate on buffing and blasting. That Rad doesn't need to waste time toggling on Radiation Infection. That Blaster doesn't need to worry about waiting for agro control before firing off everything she has. That Tank doesn't need to worry about controlling every bit of stray agro to keep the squishies safe. And that Scrapper doesn't need to..Well, that Scrapper is going to whatever crazy stuff he wants anyway, whether FF is along or not.
What FF does is allow the team to turn the knob up to 11 and have fun. Which in the end, is the most important point that seems to elude Turbo's grasp.
And finally, I also want to point out that I am far from an FF 'cultist' as Turbo seems to want to imply that all FF proponents must be. Across two accounts and something like 60 characters, I have one playable FF Defender. It generally only gets brought out for things like MoSTF runs or mothership raids, and usually upon request. It's not my main, I don't have any emotional investment in my support of FF.
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Well, I guess when you can't really counter someone's arguments, it's easiest to just ignore them..
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
2 of those people were already on my ignore list prior to this thread if that says anything about the quality (or lack there) of their past posts.
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Yes, Arachnos, Malta and Carnies are extremely rare enemy groups at high levels. |
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
End Drain resist requires foes with end drain to be relevant, and such foes are rarely encountered.
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Well, in all fairness, I suppose they are rare for those players than pick & choose the easiest possible content and avoid anything that might be a challenge.
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they cover the ear on their forehead and go "I don't wanna hear it."|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Well, I guess when you can't really counter someone's arguments, it's easiest to just ignore them..
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and don't forget Longbow (for at least the other side of things)
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Convinced of what ? Your whole argument ?|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Except they aren't. Since you're so hung up on empathy, we'll use it in this comparison model.
Support power decay model  I can add more supports sets if you're not convinced. |
I actually agree that forcefield would reach zero benefit before Empathy.
I also agree that forcefields could use something added to it make it less one-dimensional (even though it is not really strictly one-dimensional).
What I will not agree on is that Forcefields doesnt offer much benefit at the end game, even at the extreme end-game, because that does not match my in-game experiences. Perhaps you run with a very "special" crowd of players that most of us don't get the opportunity to see.
I also refuse to place Forcefield as the worst end-game set, because at the levels of team mitgation strength that you are talking about, why not just bring 8 of these maxxed-out blasters and forget everything else (AT-wise). At those levels of performance, just skip the support and grab more DPS. Well except the days of 8-Blaster God Teams kinda died with ED and GDN, right ?
Finally, I dont need to see more comparison models like the one you displayed, unless you care to explain the chart to all of us. It doesn't show evidence to support your case, since you have not explained what each value represents. I see number of team members across the top, a list of powers along the sides, and no cell formulae or additional information to explain what your displaying.
Additionally, you are not quantifying Heals and Holds, but yet I see regen Aura on the list of powers. It would be kind of misleading to not include heals in "empathy's" mitigation breakdown since it does this thing pretty well. By the same token you are doing Forcefield a disservice by not factoring in Knockback into its mitigation as well.
But I understand how hard defender primary comparison's are. Keep working on it though. Maybe yours will be done before Umbral's or mine. Would love to see the whole thing one day.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
I'm avoiding this, for the most part, but one thought expressed previously caught my attention in light of some recent gameplay - mezzing foes is nowhere near the same as having mez protection. Last night on a Sister Psyche tf with my pimped-out Dom, the new Freak Stunners (whatever the boss Elec Control guys are called) kept mezzing me a dozen different ways. Yeah, I could hit one with a hold but outside of Domination, he'd mez me before I could get in a second hit. Lord help if there were 2 of them. I would have loved to have had a bubbler with me for that (or Sonic, I'm not too picky).
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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Oooh Ohhh, I know this one ! Pick Me ! Pick Me !|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
If this were actually true why would any Controller take Indomitible Will as a power? Be careful how you answer this. I'll give you a hint too so you don't step right into the trap. What do Ice, Fire and Electric Control all have in common that flies in the face of your statements about mezzes and inspirations? This should be a very easy question if you have as much familiarity as you claim to.
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BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Don't forget Freaks - they just added Super Stunners to the game...
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Yes, Arachnos, Malta and Carnies are extremely rare enemy groups at high levels.
Well, in all fairness, I suppose they are rare for those players than pick & choose the easiest possible content and avoid anything that might be a challenge. |
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Don't argue with an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.
I'm going to live by this while on the teams making "end game" comments on FF and empathy (amongst other confrontations).
That said I must again say that I'm floored by the action my one question has caused.
I was away awhile and had to catch up (from page two methinks) on the conversation(s). I now see double, my nose is bleeding, and I'm not sure what this substance coming from my ears is... there is a TON of great information here if you're good at filter-fu! While hard to absorb... It's almost a "guide" of sorts now? *meh*
This thread has caused me to love the player base of this game. The recent posts have made me resurrect my little bubbler.
I thank you. All of you. Punch and pie for everybody!
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Bubble up!
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Originally Posted by Splat-Fu
Don't argue with an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.
I'm going to live by this while on the teams making "end game" comments on FF and empathy (amongst other confrontations). That said I must again say that I'm floored by the action my one question has caused. I was away awhile and had to catch up (from page two methinks) on the conversation(s). I now see double, my nose is bleeding, and I'm not sure what this substance coming from my ears is... there is a TON of great information here if you're good at filter-fu! While hard to absorb... It's almost a "guide" of sorts now? *meh* This thread has caused me to love the player base of this game. The recent posts have made me resurrect my little bubbler. I thank you. All of you. Punch and pie for everybody! |
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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I really don't think you will get a argument here about one FF per Stateman. In fact, pretty sure 99.999% of us would agree with you on this point. But as you said about my point with ship raids and FF, you can't prove the worth (or its lack of worth) with a single tf as a example.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
1 FF is about all I'll invite to a team if I'm doing something like STF or LRSF, any more would be redundant since I would be bringing other support sets as well. Any other set I could fill the entire team up with and not be worried too much whether I have all my bases covered since all except FF brings a wide variety of stats to buff/debuff. Sure FF is wanted on teams with little to no mitigation, but when most of your team is tankers/controllers/defenders/corruptors/mm/dominators/veats/brutes it's nowhere nearly as desirable as other support sets.
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And for me, unless it was a MoSTF.... I won't bring my bubbler.
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| You say overstate, I would say thoroughly state. We seem to be in agreement then based on your understanding that 3+ FFs really doesn't bring much to a team beyond the first 2 FFs and the statement above. |
As for two bubblers on the same team, maybe less then five times not counting ship raids in the 48+ months I've played. Only time I really remember going for it (active recruitment), was on a team of six blasters. The other time, just dumb luck on a itf, where the other fender just kicked-back and let me do all the personal bubbler chores.
/Empaths can turn three people into Jesus, one person into God, and everyone else into the twelve apostles.~Angry_Citizen
Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper
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Also Hami's blue mitos and Famine - just in case you ever do an LGTF.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Don't forget Freaks - they just added Super Stunners to the game...
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I would have to agree that FF is the support set that least benefits from stacking though - it's just the price you pay for being that good at your main job. 1 FF can softcap a grouped team; 2 FFs can softcap most people on any team; at 3 you would probably be better with a wider variety of support sets.
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Originally Posted by Splat-Fu
Don't argue with an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.
I'm going to live by this while on the teams making "end game" comments on FF and empathy (amongst other confrontations). That said I must again say that I'm floored by the action my one question has caused. I was away awhile and had to catch up (from page two methinks) on the conversation(s). I now see double, my nose is bleeding, and I'm not sure what this substance coming from my ears is... there is a TON of great information here if you're good at filter-fu! While hard to absorb... It's almost a "guide" of sorts now? *meh* This thread has caused me to love the player base of this game. The recent posts have made me resurrect my little bubbler. I thank you. All of you. Punch and pie for everybody! |
I'm glad you got something out of it. If you care to let us know what you're secondary powerset is, I'm sure several of us would be happy to help you with build suggestions for leveling up, and for maximizing yourself in the fabled "end game."
P.S. Despite my disgreements with Turbo Ski about Force Field, if you ever play Cold Domination, I do want to give her props and say her guide is actually quite useful. Also keep in mind that although we players clash pretty publicly on the boards, by next week all of us will change alliances and be shouting at each other about a different topic.
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Originally Posted by Splat-Fu
This thread has caused me to love the player base of this game. The recent posts have made me resurrect my little bubbler.
I thank you. All of you. Punch and pie for everybody! |
This guide might help you a little in your fun. Perhaps.
I agree with Tex regarding Turbo,
He/She is not technically wrong regarding FF, we (or at least I) just think that they are exaggerating how useless FF becomes at high level. There are just so many subtle aspects of FF if you really give it a try, that I cannot say enough good things about it.
You should read every guide on FF and also Dr.Mike's guide to self-defense and just enjoy what FF brings to the table (both solo and teamed).
Here are a couple of my favorite aspects of FF;
Solo: You get personal status protection. Only one other defender primary can say that and it does not allow you to solo nearly as well as FF. I took medicine pool on my Bubbler (He is tech origin) and in the middle of a nasty fight I can turn on PFF then Aid Self, drop PFF and continue where I left off. Its like a hold button. I love that.
Teams: Because you only need to hit your teammates with 2 bubbles every 4 minutes, you get to spend ALL of your remaining time being Offensive. There are no words to describe how much more enjoyable that is compared to playing other buffing sets (Empathy, Kinetics) who need to constantly be alert to the teams needs and often spend a majority of their time refreshing buffs. So even though the common wisdom is that FF is not an Offensive contributor to the team, thats just a mentality of folks who look only at what you can do for them, as opposed to what you can do for the team. Offense = Defense (in a way). I absolutely love playing FF on a team AND solo. This is not a statement I can say about very many Defender primaries, because nearly every single set has some kind of major drawback in either solo or team-play (or Both --> Kinetics).
Enjoy your Tank-Blaster
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
By the way, the correct answer to the question about Fire, Ice, and Electric Control is player-based area of effect (PBAoE) toggle powers that place those Control sets frequently in melee range. If you are running one of these powers and an enemy mezzes you, it shuts the power off, leaving you standing in melee range with an angry mob, and the power does not recharge for 15 seconds. It does not help to eat an inspiration; if the mezz hits you even for a fraction of a second, you are detoggled. If you did happen to be soft capped because of personal armor powers, that shuts off as well for the duration of the mezz. In a best case scenario this is highly annoying, in a worst case it is deadly because the enemy is able to continually lock you out of regaining your AoE. Force Field allows these three Control sets to play fast and loose, jumping into melee range with little danger of being hit with attacks, in addition to providing mezz protection to keep the AoE up. This has implications for the rest of the team, because those Control powers can be the barrier between an easy fight and a deadly exchange.
If you happen to be playing Empathy (or Thermal or Pain) one thing you can do to help out your team is keep any Fire, Ice, or Electric Controller perma-Clear Mind'ed. Several other sets (Defender, Controller, Corruptor's Radiation Emission & Dark Miasma, Blaster's Fire Manipulation) also have important toggle powers that can be switched off this way, although that's usually less deadly (hopefully).
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You're disregarding the use of Char, Flashfire, Cinders, Block of Ice, Glacier, Ice Slick, Tesla Cage, Jointing chain, Syn Overload, and Paralyzing Blast in that scenario. All powers I would consider firing at least one of prior to any other action. Static Field and Flash Freeze are also relevant if we're talking solo or small team, also bonfire in some extreme situations though I wouldn't recommend it most of the time. Also you seem to disregard that Arctic Air is an AoE confuse. I mean you assume the player is standing around waiting to get mezzed to support your argument at this point instead of actively preventing it.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
By the way, the correct answer to the question about Fire, Ice, and Electric Control is player-based area of effect (PBAoE) toggle powers that place those Control sets frequently in melee range. If you are running one of these powers and an enemy mezzes you, it shuts the power off, leaving you standing in melee range with an angry mob, and the power does not recharge for 15 seconds. It does not help to eat an inspiration; if the mezz hits you even for a fraction of a second, you are detoggled. If you did happen to be soft capped because of personal armor powers, that shuts off as well for the duration of the mezz. In a best case scenario this is highly annoying, in a worst case it is deadly because the enemy is able to continually lock you out of regaining your AoE. Force Field allows these three Control sets to play fast and loose, jumping into melee range with little danger of being hit with attacks, in addition to providing mezz protection to keep the AoE up. This has implications for the rest of the team, because those Control powers can be the barrier between an easy fight and a deadly exchange.
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Turbo: Perhaps instead of talking about "idiotproofing" we should talk about "risk management". Speaking as someone who accidentally vacuumed up half a stick of butter once, mistakes happen. Bad luck happens. Avoidable problems are sometimes not avoided.
And the joy of force fields is, these things happen and your team lives anyway.
Unless you're claiming that "the use of Char, Flashfire, Cinders, Block of Ice, Glacier, Ice Slick, Tesla Cage, Jointing chain, Syn Overload, and Paralyzing Blast in that scenario" gives you a zero percent chance of getting countermezzed.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
my reasons for saying IOs, Mez Protection, and End resist are irrelevant were pretty clear. IOs aren't considered when balancing sets because of the money/time sink cost and them being a constant across all sets. Mez Protection is equivalent in value to an ST hold, since they both are quite reliable at preventing mez. End resist has little weight by 50 since there are a ton of +end/+rec and end discount powers flying about and it's a common for players to already have their end managed via slotting and/or previously mentioned powers.