That probably is a good idea. Around the teens when enemies are tough enough to put up a fight but you still lack stuff like heals or Fitness or good mitigation, I often have to just go AFK after certain fights because I've already used Rest and am out of Green/Blue Inspirations.
Actually, under the right circumstances, that could happen to you at pretty much any level. You just might not have to go AFK as long.
Remove it's recharge?
Sure. Or at least cut it in half again.
Remember it's original recharge time? Yeah, all of my characters had a full set of binds on them by L20, as I had nothing to do after fights where I needed to Rest, but it wasn't recharged.
I'm almost hearing the snarky suggestion of "just combine inspires for a blue!", but in the levels where you actually USE Rest, your inspire tray isn't large enough to assume that the character has accumulated sufficient product to combine.
/signed!
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I'll /sign this. Because seriously, in-story terms, recharge, along with end consumption, is supposed to show how intensely and exhausting a power can be, now how does that make sense with REST?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
2) Because Rest comes with significant debuffs while active (only affect self, -100% Resistance/Defense) any balance concerns are mitigated IMO.
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"Oh my god! That last break I took was so exhausting, I don't think I could rest like that against for another three minutes!"
/sign!
But just to point something out, it's not a -100% debuff to res and defense. It's actually -1000%. (It's OVER NINE HUNDRED!) I believe the only reason you don't die from one hit while resting is because there's explicitly code in the game that's meant to keep player characters from being one shot.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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/signed.
As an extension of 1), there can literally be no balance problem* because Rest is simply an accelerated form of standing around waiting for health and endurance to regenerate.
As an extension of 3), it would provide even post-SO characters with a workable alternative to Stamina that required no additional power picks or slots.
*Edit, for rear-covering purposes: There's no powers/enemy-based balance upset. You might argue that it would change how quickly lower level characters can run through content/gain XP, but I don't really see that as a bad thing, considering the revamped XP curve already increased that speed.
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/signed
An interesting argument. I could definitely see it as a consolatory alternative to non-combat quick recovery I've seen in other MMOs.
I'm sorry, I can't agree to this in any way, shape or form. Primarily because I've agreed with EG a few times in the past, and we're at a critical moment where if I agree again without letting some of those prior agreements decay, the results could threaten all of spacetime. Tears would appear in the very fabric of reality. Misfile would be a *minor* issue in the overall scheme of things. Arcanaville would have no interest or ability in math, instead becoming a professional cheese-clothing designer. Salsa everywhere would be threatened. Reality as we know it would be twisted into Origami cranes.
You see the burden I bear. So, I must put aside any actual personal opinion on it, make the sacrifice and vehemently disagree with this.
It's for your own good.
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I'm selfish enough to be okay with the collapse/reversal/something of the universe if this was one of the results. Sorry, Arcana.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Misfile would be a *minor* issue in the overall scheme of things.
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Well, I've said it before (like, a few hours ago ) so I'll say it again - yes, please, very much make Rest's recharge instant. This would solve so many problems, most of them having to do with sitting on your hands, waiting around. It would, as the Evil Geko explained, open the door to even harder, more exhausting fights when the option to recover is still open. It would also put still more weight on ambushes which generally don't let you rest between them.
I agree that there's nothing to be lost by removing a lot of time spent standing around. In fact, I hate standing around waiting for health or endurance to come back that I've taken to running the TV all the time, just so I could swivel my chair and watch TV for a few minutes every once in a while. When your game makes me want to watch TV instead, something is amiss!
If there are any balancing concerns regarding the ability to rest any time, they should be ignored, for one simple fact - balancing content by how long you have to sit on your hands is balance by annoyance, and this is a BAD BAD BAD means of balancing any game ever. A game should be designed to waste my time intentionally.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Or you could be unlucky like me and always have TWO of everything (Happens more often than you might think)! Then you're really screwed.
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Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
I'm almost hearing the snarky suggestion of "just combine inspires for a blue!", but in the levels where you actually USE Rest, your inspire tray isn't large enough to assume that the character has accumulated sufficient product to combine.
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I've long been an advocate of doing something about the endurance problems inherent in low-level play. This doesn't go far enough in my opinion, but it's a start, so /signed.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The subject is the suggestion. My argument is as follows:
1) Rest is a utility power that lowers downtime. Downtime in an action oriented game like City of Heroes should only be justified if there is a strong balance reason for including it. 2) Because Rest comes with significant debuffs while active (only affect self, -100% Resistance/Defense) any balance concerns are mitigated IMO. 3) Rest is a utility that provides its greatest benefit prior to characters reaching the ability to slot SOs or higher. Characters have weak endurance efficiency options and even characters with healing powers are limited by endurance (outliers like Regen notwithstanding). 4) Allowing more frequent use of Rest provide a space for more interesting and difficult encounters pre-20 because characters ever only need to survive the current encounter. 5) There is no five. 6) Or six.  7) I really should stop now huh?  8) OK, I'm done!  |
Low levels have such a hard time with downtime. I pull rest out of my tray in the mid-levels, because it's useless after a point, but in those low levels, you need it.
I think cutting down or removing the recharge on Rest is a great idea.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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This gave me a really good laugh! |
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
"Oh my god! That last break I took was so exhausting, I don't think I could rest like that against for another three minutes!"
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Yep, I'm all for taking the recharge out of rest.
I do think you need some sort of resource depletion mechanic, and some cost to using all your resources in a given combat.
If the only balancing factor is "surviving an encounter" than you either have encounters where everybody except scrappers, brutes, and tankers (and maybe MMs) are screwed, or the only relevant factor is damage, with defenses and endurance efficiency irrelevant.
That said, long waits as balancing are really annoying, and I think that the time currently associated with Rest is sufficient balance, so I support the proposal.
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The problem is that content isn't balanced that way. Its balanced on the premise of managing health and endurance, not blowing them off in one fight and having nothing left for the next fight so you have to wait around to recover them. The game simply isn't designed to allow people to recover to full easily after every single fight.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
If there are any balancing concerns regarding the ability to rest any time, they should be ignored, for one simple fact - balancing content by how long you have to sit on your hands is balance by annoyance, and this is a BAD BAD BAD means of balancing any game ever. A game should be designed to waste my time intentionally.
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Out of combat recovery and rest are touchy subjects for that reason. Health and Endurance are supposed to be managed resources, but often players treat them like dogs would act if you dumped out all their food for the month into their dishes.
The game just isn't balanced around "that which does not kill you doesn't matter." It would take significant amount of work to rebalance around that principle. And regeneration and healing would become significantly less interesting and practically impossible to balance. Those are high costs just to change the entire foundation of the game from its resource management roots to a more per-kill shooter foundation.
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The last thing we want to do is train players to think this game's flow is about act, rest, act, rest. You do not want to encourage players to think that way is the 'right' way to play.
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Would you care to explain what exactly is the "right" way to play?|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
The last thing we want to do is train players to think this game's flow is about act, rest, act, rest. You do not want to encourage players to think that way is the 'right' way to play.
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And honestly, pre-Stamina, pre-SOs, and without any support ATs helping you, the game pretty much is stop and go. How often you need to stop and how fast you can go varies greatly by AT among other things.
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My ideal case is if Rest had some small non-time cost, instead of a recharge.
Say, if it caused debt equal to half the xp earned from an even level minion. You have a strong incentive to avoid using it excessively, but you're never have to wait around for anything, and since the cost is small, you'll probably advance faster than if you waited to recover health/endurance normally.
That's my crazy idea. Commence Flames in 3, 2, 1...
/signed
If not removed then at least cut down. Sometimes i need to use it after every other fight and i end up standing around, wasting time.
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Not like that. I can't say the right way to play, but I can tell you what is probably the wrong way to play. It's not right to run into spawns and not attack. It's not right to refuse to enter the instance until you have a healer. The game has an incentive mechanism in play, and part of that incentive mechanism has multiple things you can do that do not receive incentives. While people have varying styles and choices to make, there are a number of things you can do that the game clearly does not encourage.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Would you care to explain what exactly is the "right" way to play?
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Attack-rest, attack-rest is the mechanism used in other games, games which have a deliberate investment in combat mechanics to make sure that players do not and cannot survive without doing this. This game quickly blossoms past that, to the point where rest becomes an occasional device rather than a necessity - but if players are able to constantly lean on rest, they are given reason to not expand out into that style of play.
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| And honestly, pre-Stamina, pre-SOs, and without any support ATs helping you, the game pretty much is stop and go. |
Yes, change rest to what EG said.
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We know that by level 30 for the majority of characters this is exactly the situation. IF the mobs can't kill you in the current encounter, then they can't kill you. For melees playing on base difficulty, it's not uncommon for it to be, "you can't kill me...ever." I just don't see why making the low levels more tolerable is bad given that. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The problem is that content isn't balanced that way. Its balanced on the premise of managing health and endurance, not blowing them off in one fight and having nothing left for the next fight so you have to wait around to recover them. The game simply isn't designed to allow people to recover to full easily after every single fight.
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What needs to change? Managing health and endurance isn't very meaningful pre-SOs anyway because you have few tools with which to do so.
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/signed as well. it makes the crawl to stamina that much more gross.
The subject is the suggestion. My argument is as follows:
1) Rest is a utility power that lowers downtime. Downtime in an action oriented game like City of Heroes should only be justified if there is a strong balance reason for including it.
2) Because Rest comes with significant debuffs while active (only affect self, -100% Resistance/Defense) any balance concerns are mitigated IMO.
3) Rest is a utility that provides its greatest benefit prior to characters reaching the ability to slot SOs or higher. Characters have weak endurance efficiency options and even characters with healing powers are limited by endurance (outliers like Regen notwithstanding).
4) Allowing more frequent use of Rest provide a space for more interesting and difficult encounters pre-20 because characters ever only need to survive the current encounter.
5) There is no five.
6) Or six.
7) I really should stop now huh?
8) OK, I'm done!
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.