People will argue and complain about anything... All I can say is that I'm glad those few aren't the ones that need to be convinced, it's the developers. If they're going to make a selfish and incomprehensible argument, they may as well not be arguing at all, 'cause the developers certainly aren't going to listen to it.
Some of the people arguing against this have already said themselves they rarely if ever run into the issue of having to go AFK after a fight because Rest is down, so this change doesn't affect them. From what I gather, most of them are willing to screw over the people that do deal with this issue to prevent some ridiculous situation in which they have to deal with a bad player somehow created by this.
Quote:
My best guess is it comes from falling damage. "I don't die when I fall, but then the next hit gets me"|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Seriously; Where to people keep getting this idea from?! It's not true! Go in game, go up to a mob of even con or higher, and hit rest. In fact, to prove it, go to the warzone or somewhere and walk up to the biggest, nastiest Rikti you can find. Then rest in front of it.
You. Will. Die. One shot, one kill. End of story. There is no one-shot rule. Or if there is, its only in very extreme cases. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Now I'm all curious if this has just been a myth this whole time. Anyone know for sure?
|
So.
I decided to go test this.
I took my 50 MM, used a flashback to drop to level 15, had a friend clear out a spawn except for one conscript.
Astonished, I am.
Dude hits me for more than my max HP, and I'm able to hit my raptor pack and fly away.
So, yeah. The game DOES have a provision for this.
[edit] Ha. I took too long doing this, I see.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
|
Quote:
The problem is, the goal should be for people to be able to handle multiple spawns with the resources they have, but not infinite spawns unless they're either moving slowly or have invested a lot into making their build sustainable on high load. |
Originally Posted by Umbral
What people are arguing for isn't the simplified fight or die model that you seem to be interpreting them as arguing for. Rest, even with an instant recharge, still represents a loss of time (which is exactly what death is). If you survive with 100% of your resources intact, you can can head to the next fight without waiting. If you survive with 10% of your resources intact, you have to spend the next 17 seconds using Rest. The use of Rest is, in and of itself, a cost that you are having to pay. If you manage your health and endurance intelligently, you won't have to pay the cost in downtime as often, which still provides a reason for you to take powers that supplant Rest as a primary source of after combat recovery while those same powers still provide you with in combat recovery capabilities. Removing the recharge wouldn't somehow remove the impetus to make a character more self-sufficient. All it would do would be to make Rest a viable but still suboptimal alternative, which, unless the devs honestly want everyone to take Stamina and/or a powerset with an endurance assistance power (which I think they've outright said they don't want to do), would be an intelligent thing to do.
|
An always-available rest would result in people just topping off every time they finish a spawn, and there's basically no risk once a spawn is dropped; most maps aren't filled with patrols, and the spawn that's sitting --> over there will ignore you until you get close enough. It only takes a handful of seconds to top off your endurance with rest, so this would effectively obsolete stamina as "the solution to endurance problems", as perceived by the general populace.
People already fail to use the tools available to them NOW. This would be another crutch.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
|
Quote:
That's not really true in the slightest. Rest has a 6 second animation time that you must complete before you see any gains from using it. You then have to wait up to 12 seconds after that to see the gains. If you are at 50% endurance at the end of a fight, you will have to wait for 12 seconds in order to get back to full. If you are at 90% endurance, it's 7.2 seconds.|
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
It only takes a handful of seconds to top off your endurance with rest, so this would effectively obsolete stamina as "the solution to endurance problems", as perceived by the general populace.
|
This entire argument also ignores the entire issue of endurance sustainability within combat. It's incredibly easy to run out of endurance while in the middle of a fight, even with Stamina, if you're not spec'd heavily for end redux. Rest would do nothing for in-combat resource recovery.
Considering games that actually use such a model, the ability to recover a vast majority of your resources after combat by enforcing a non-combat downtime hasn't discredited the use of in-combat resource recovery mechanisms because, if you have only out-of-combat recovery, you are forced to take breaks from play on an almost constant basis. If you have in-combat recovery mechanisms, you can keep on going at little to no loss of real effect.
How long does a normal fight generally last? 30 seconds or thereabouts? If you expend all of your resources in that fight, your fight "cycle" is going to be roughly 40 seconds (30 seconds of fight, ~10-12 seconds of downtime). If you invest in recovery mechanisms, you'll have greater staying power in the fight and, even if it takes longer to defeat the target, you're still going to make out like a bandit because your fight cycle is faster because you're not having to recover all of your resources after every fight.
Quote:
Faulty arguments. |
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
The problem is, the goal should be for people to be able to handle multiple spawns with the resources they have, but not infinite spawns unless they're either moving slowly or have invested a lot into making their build sustainable on high load.
An always-available rest would result in people just topping off every time they finish a spawn, and there's basically no risk once a spawn is dropped; most maps aren't filled with patrols, and the spawn that's sitting --> over there will ignore you until you get close enough. It only takes a handful of seconds to top off your endurance with rest, so this would effectively obsolete stamina as "the solution to endurance problems", as perceived by the general populace. People already fail to use the tools available to them NOW. This would be another crutch. |
(A) "An always-available rest would result in people just topping off every time they finish a spawn."
This is an *assumption.* People like to keep moving, too - which is why they invest power selections and slots in Stamina. An always-available rest (which takes a few seconds to activate, as well) slows down the mission, which itself some people don't like in principle, and which is a greater penalty than "just keep moving" for some ATs (Blasters lose the seconds of Defiance, Dominators have Domination they've built up drop or lose usable time in Domination, Brutes have Fury drop.)
(B) "This would obsolete Stamina as the solution to endurance problems"
Stamina is *a* solution, not *the* solution. In addition, Stamina has a big advantage Rest doesn't - it's always ON (not just always available.) Rest doesn't help my Tanker in the middle of a large spawn when my END from armors, attacks and the like are using up my endurance. Stamina does. Rest slows me from getting to the next spawn, because I'm locked in place - and if I'm not paying attention (or hit a lag spike,) the ambushes (which are more frequent than you seem to want to paint them) have a nice, big, heavily defense-debuffed target to take down.
It would allow people *another* path to endurance management, yes. It would not render Stamina obsolete.
Quote:
The one shot rule says you cannot be killed by one shot from full health. As long as you start at full health, one shot cannot kill you. One point less, and you can be one-shotted.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Seriously; Where to people keep getting this idea from?! It's not true! Go in game, go up to a mob of even con or higher, and hit rest. In fact, to prove it, go to the warzone or somewhere and walk up to the biggest, nastiest Rikti you can find. Then rest in front of it.
You. Will. Die. One shot, one kill. End of story. There is no one-shot rule. Or if there is, its only in very extreme cases. |
The experiment you ask people to do above is how people farmed Immortal. I even was one of the first to recommend using Rikti to do it, and found one of the faster two-box methods for doing it (using Rikti bosses that only had the greater sword melee attack). So I'm pretty sure of the one-shot rule.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
I am well aware of the numerical properties of Rest. My original statement factors them in entirely within that context. In fact, when I first recommended that Rest be further reduced to between 60 and 90 seconds instead of 180 seconds, I posted an entire numerical analysis justifying those numbers which included the specific mechanics of Rest factored in. Those recommendations still stand.
|
Originally Posted by Umbral
What people are arguing for isn't the simplified fight or die model that you seem to be interpreting them as arguing for. Rest, even with an instant recharge, still represents a loss of time (which is exactly what death is). If you survive with 100% of your resources intact, you can can head to the next fight without waiting. If you survive with 10% of your resources intact, you have to spend the next 17 seconds using Rest. The use of Rest is, in and of itself, a cost that you are having to pay. If you manage your health and endurance intelligently, you won't have to pay the cost in downtime as often, which still provides a reason for you to take powers that supplant Rest as a primary source of after combat recovery while those same powers still provide you with in combat recovery capabilities. Removing the recharge wouldn't somehow remove the impetus to make a character more self-sufficient. All it would do would be to make Rest a viable but still suboptimal alternative, which, unless the devs honestly want everyone to take Stamina and/or a powerset with an endurance assistance power (which I think they've outright said they don't want to do), would be an intelligent thing to do.
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Reduce or remove recharge and add a taunt aura to rest ^_^.
Quote:
I think the confusion comes from that there is code to prevent you from dying from a fall. You'll always land with 1 hp left from a fall that would otherwise be fatal. I think people extrapolated this into a "no one shot rule"
|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Signed, as ever.
Oh, and; Seriously; Where to people keep getting this idea from?! It's not true! Go in game, go up to a mob of even con or higher, and hit rest. In fact, to prove it, go to the warzone or somewhere and walk up to the biggest, nastiest Rikti you can find. Then rest in front of it. You. Will. Die. One shot, one kill. End of story. There is no one-shot rule. Or if there is, its only in very extreme cases. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
Quote:
See my post with screenshots.
|
Originally Posted by Smurch
I think the confusion comes from that there is code to prevent you from dying from a fall. You'll always land with 1 hp left from a fall that would otherwise be fatal. I think people extrapolated this into a "no one shot rule"
|
Quote:
There was an explicit "no one shot rule" added not long after the implementation of PvP, theoretically to prevent Stalkers and other high-spike ATs and powersets from killing other players instantly.|
Originally Posted by Smurch
I think the confusion comes from that there is code to prevent you from dying from a fall. You'll always land with 1 hp left from a fall that would otherwise be fatal. I think people extrapolated this into a "no one shot rule"
|
However, the code only works if the player's HP is completely full - if even .1 of a hit point is missing, you can be killed immediately. The code also doesn't, say, prevent a DoT from killing you after you've been brought to 1 HP by the same attack.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
Quote:
I will continue to point this out: This is already possible, Rest or no Rest. It is entirely possible to simply wait the handful of minutes to top up your health and endurance after every mob. Or pop inspirations. Or use Health and Stamina. Or use a friendly Empath. You seem to be under the impression that Rest would uniquely eliminate some sort of risk from the game, that is already regularly circumventable.
|
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
and there's basically no risk once a spawn is dropped; most maps aren't filled with patrols, and the spawn that's sitting --> over there will ignore you until you get close enough.
|
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by b0bcatmc
OK...6 slotted Rest it is...
or...maybe not... |
I was initially for this as my solo blasters end up waiting for it to recharge a good bit pre stamina. But a mission last night and reading this thread has me now on the fence.
I picked up a mission to protect TPN from 100 destroyers. My Eng/Eng blaster foolishly went in with a nearly empty tray of insp and still rocking the TO's.
The mission started and I saw the 1st waves below me start charging up the stairs. I went into instinct and used my KB to keep them falling down the stairs and slowly picked them off. I noticed they were considerably weaker and smiled.
Then the next wave, and next wave. I was starting to get winded and popped my final blue. Then the next wave with a few runners from a previous surprising me from behind. I started to get overwhelmed.
I had to run, seek cover. So I Ninja'd all over the map, this way and that. Finally coming to rest on the ledge of a building I quickly hit rest. The moment it topped me off some Destroyers spotted me and jumped up.
I dispatched them and went back to the frontlines, I saw a humongous mob of destroyers awaiting me. This is gonna get bad I thought.
So I whittled them down one by one, using whatever tactics I could to survive. But, shortly after getting the 50 defeated message I was again in dire straights. I noticed I wasn't getting any drops from them, more than likely cause of the weakend state. So I ran and tried to repeat the previous rest trick. Got the ledge only to discover it hadn't recharged!
I knew they were hot on my trail so I went old school and started kiting.
After a very hectic few minutes and less than 15 left rest recharged and I was able to use it quickly and mop the stragglers up!
That was the most fun I've had in a solo mish since the 1st time I ran the Croatoa attack the ritual and stop the escaping fir bolg missions!!
Then I realized not having rest right back up kept it that way. I was out of options but I fought on and survived without dying. I felt like a Hero.
So I'm on the fence now and am curious to see for myself. I have a few throwaway toons and wondered if permarest could be reached with 6 slots and SO's, Might Vetspec tonight and run a few just to see how the feel would be.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
Quote:
^^This^^|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
When your game makes me want to watch TV instead, something is amiss!
|
Therefore, /signed.
@NC Thunderbird, @Last Kid Picked
HELP! I can't stop making Alts! Up to 175 now, including: Lutadora, Tess LaCoille, Not Of This World, Lies Behind Stars, Redshift Monk.
Campaigning for title of official "Thread Killer" of the Suggestions & Ideas forum.
Quote:
Why ascribe negative motivations to the people who feel this change is unneeded? Why do we have to be out to "screw over" other players?|
Originally Posted by Khiva
Some of the people arguing against this have already said themselves they rarely if ever run into the issue of having to go AFK after a fight because Rest is down, so this change doesn't affect them. From what I gather, most of them are willing to screw over the people that do deal with this issue to prevent some ridiculous situation in which they have to deal with a bad player somehow created by this.
|
Obviously I can only speak for myself, but I'm pretty confident that no one else here wants to "screw over" anybody. Making changes just for the heck of it without considering potential consequences or the necessity of making the change in the first place seems like a poor practice to me.
All I've really seen in this thread is a lot of hyperbole that doesn't match my experiences in-game. People claiming they need to use Rest after every fight, people claiming they go AFK waiting for Rest to recharge, etc.
There are already a number of ways to deal with endurance issues at low levels without having to use Rest as a crutch.
- Slot powers for endurance reduction.
- Use inspirations.
- Temp Power: Recovery Serum.
- Drop a recharge reduction TO or DO in Rest.
I am right now not playing because MNP went into the kitchen since rest was down so he decided to make himself a sandwich...DAMN YOU REST RECHARGE!
Quote:
Or maybe the consequences we've considered all sound good, or minor enough to not shut down the idea? It's really baffling how from the very first post EvilGeko gave a number of fair, if brief, arguments as part of his proposal, but apparently we just want thoughtless changes for the sake of thoughtless changes...|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Making changes just for the heck of it without considering potential consequences or the necessity of making the change in the first place seems like a poor practice to me.
|
Quote:
| All I've really seen in this thread is a lot of hyperbole that doesn't match my experiences in-game. People claiming they need to use Rest after every fight, people claiming they go AFK waiting for Rest to recharge, etc. |
Quote:
There are already a number of ways to deal with endurance issues at low levels without having to use Rest as a crutch.
|
2) Inspirations are unreliable, especially since low-level characters have less room for them.
3) Recovery Serum is a rare temp power drop (I've never gotten it yet on any character), plus requires the salvage. Unfortunately I can't find the info on exactly what components you need and how cheap they are.
4) See 1.
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
Quote:
Can you really say that having Rest more available would be incredibly game breaking? Since I do believe I've pointed out that, yes, those ARE available, but having another reliable option would be nice for some, especially given rest's drawbacks. (Hell, I'm not even saying *I* would use it more.)|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
There are already a number of ways to deal with endurance issues at low levels without having to use Rest as a crutch.
|
After all, the side arguing against has been putting out some hyperbole as well ("It'll make stamina obsolete!")
Quote:
No, I don't think it would be "incredibly game breaking". I just don't think it is necessary, and I am not a fan of making unneeded changes to game mechanics when there are many other existing options. It often comes across as players wanting to change the game, rather than take any action on their own part to overcome the perceived issue.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Can you really say that having Rest more available would be incredibly game breaking? Since I do believe I've pointed out that, yes, those ARE available, but having another reliable option would be nice for some, especially given rest's drawbacks. (Hell, I'm not even saying *I* would use it more.)
|
As I said above, between all the existing options in the game, there is no reason at all for a player to be always waiting around for Rest to recharge. The only reason that would ever be the case, is if they choose not to use the tools available to them.
Unfortunately, much of this comes down to perception and our own individual experiences in the game. I've got two accounts close to filled with characters. I usually don't PL my toons, and I play solo alot. So I've been through that lower level range plenty of times. I simply cannot believe, based on my own experience, that Rest not being recharged can be remotely close to the problem that some people claim it is. I don't run into that when I play solo, and I don't see it when I'm teamed with others either, except for those players that bring it upon themselves by leaving Sprint and Ninja Run on all the time or things of that nature.
I can only think of one character I ever found myself wanting to use Rest more than it was available. That was an Electric Armor Brute, and it was in the early 20's before I could get Energize which isn't available until 28 for Brutes. But I see that more as a problem with ELA for Brutes not having its self-heal until such a late level, and has nothing to do with Rest itself.
In the end, if it ever does get changed to always available, I'm certainly not going to be up in arms over it. There's a lot worse changes that could be made to the game.
Quote:
I dunno...this is coming from a player that plays nearly exclusively in the pre-lvl35 area of the game and only pick the fitness pool on truly fit characters (my benchmark for 'fit' is my main Kat/SR Scrapper; super-fit = full fitness pool with max ED slotting too)...|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Can you really say that having Rest more available would be incredibly game breaking? Since I do believe I've pointed out that, yes, those ARE available, but having another reliable option would be nice for some, especially given rest's drawbacks. (Hell, I'm not even saying *I* would use it more.)
After all, the side arguing against has been putting out some hyperbole as well ("It'll make stamina obsolete!") |
Why do we need insta-recharge rest now? To make low levels less of a hassle? Well, newsflash: The early game isn't hard. Actually, I find the lvl 14-33 game to be the *most* fun. Before that, you barely have any powers and after that progression tends to hit a brickwall and only truly interesting when you're slot-hungry.
While I would love instant-recharge rest for my Spines/Dark Stalker, you gotta understand that...well...Rest, the power, is pretty frikken strong. I mean, what, it tops off your green and blue bars in around 12-16sec (*UNSLOTTED!?!*) with the only stipulation is you gotta wait? Then you have to ask yourself if waiting a few seconds is cost enough for such a strong effect.
Not against lowering the recharge but yeah, probably should actually contemplate the ramifications of a change before just loosely throwing your /sign on it. After all, this is an RPG. Content and progression must be implicitly synced for the longevity of the game. Part of content is enhancements and other drops while progression is partially controlled by xp gain. Not saying insta-rest is a 'easy lvl 50' button but when you start removing limitations, you run a slippery slope.
Quote:
What was that you said about hyperbole? I will once again state that, while I could be wrong, I'm pretty sure the only person that seems to keep trotting out this "rest every mob" thing is you.
|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
there is no reason at all for a player to be always waiting around for Rest to recharge. The only reason that would ever be the case, is if they choose not to use the tools available to them.
|
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
Quote:
Umm.. I'm pretty sure that statement of mine that you quoted doesn't say anything about "rest every mob". Let me double check. Nope. Doesn't mention it. |
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
What was that you said about hyperbole? I will once again state that, while I could be wrong, I'm pretty sure the only person that seems to keep trotting out this "rest every mob" thing is you.
|
ETA: In all seriousness, when I said "always waiting around for Rest to recharge", I meant in the general sense, not the literal. As in it happening quite a bit, which is certainly what several people have been saying in this thread, and in previous ones on the same subject.
Quote:
We didn't "need" newspaper missions.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
No, I don't think it would be "incredibly game breaking". I just don't think it is necessary, and I am not a fan of making unneeded changes to game mechanics when there are many other existing options. It often comes across as players wanting to change the game, rather than take any action on their own part to overcome the perceived issue.
|
We didn't "need" temporary travel powers (and so many ways to get them.)
We didn't "need" to be able to combine inspirations to make a new one.
We didn't "need" to have every tier-3 inspiration dropped on us when we leveled.
We didn't "need" a lot of things in this game. However, we got them as conveniences. Which is all this is.
Quote:
It's not risk that's crucial, but pacing. Risk functions as a statistical rate gating effect.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
I will continue to point this out: This is already possible, Rest or no Rest. It is entirely possible to simply wait the handful of minutes to top up your health and endurance after every mob. Or pop inspirations. Or use Health and Stamina. Or use a friendly Empath. You seem to be under the impression that Rest would uniquely eliminate some sort of risk from the game, that is already regularly circumventable.
|
If you just stop and wait for a moment, yes, this is risk free, but it also adds a small amount of delay before you resume producing rewards.
In effect, free access to rest has a side effect of increasing the average reward over time for the entire game. This is a presumably excessive side effect unless you're ALSO prepared to demonstrate that the reward over time in the game is too low.
That's a hard sell.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
|
OK...6 slotted Rest it is...
or...maybe not...
The final line of a post by Sweet_Sarah on Liberty
"Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes."