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Except reward/time seems to be the metric the devs use as well.
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Originally Posted by Quinch
The flaw in your reasoning is that you're using a reward vs. time equation, rather than reward vs. effort.
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The entire game? I'll firmly disagree there. Rechargeless Rest doesn't mean anything to a well-constructed eight man team with plenty of debuffs, buffs, and damage all while pushing the purple cap and blazing through enemies. Heck, it pretty much means nothing once a single Empathy character is in play.|
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
In effect, free access to rest has a side effect of increasing the average reward over time for the entire game. This is a presumably excessive side effect unless you're ALSO prepared to demonstrate that the reward over time in the game is too low.
That's a hard sell. |
The only notable speed increase would be towards the low levels, and speeding those up was already a developer goal when they adjusted the XP curve. I also doubt it would actually affect things all that much since, as has been said, the need for Rest to come back immediately is not a constant, thanks to lots of mitigating factors.
In short, this might slightly nudge the low-end of the playerbase closer to the high-end, but since those speeds are already possible, I don't see the issue.
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I started just before I13, and remember when base recharge was 5 minutes. Now, if you drop in one recharge enhancement it's down to 2 and a half minutes. If you need to Rest more than once every two and a half minutes your difficulty settings are too high or you're doing something wrong.
So /unsigned.
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Yes. The entire game's average reward over time. Not every single player's reward over time, but that of the game as a whole in aggregate. And for those who are only occasionally wanting it, no, it won't impact them much. But as Arcanaville noted earlier.. If you're only occasionally needing it sooner than you are now, why is completely removing recharge superior to simply lowering the recharge?|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
The entire game? I'll firmly disagree there. Rechargeless Rest doesn't mean anything to a well-constructed eight man team with plenty of debuffs, buffs, and damage all while pushing the purple cap and blazing through enemies. Heck, it pretty much means nothing once a single Empathy character is in play.
The only notable speed increase would be towards the low levels, and speeding those up was already a developer goal when they adjusted the XP curve. I also doubt it would actually affect things all that much since, as has been said, the need for Rest to come back immediately is not a constant, thanks to lots of mitigating factors. In short, this might slightly nudge the low-end of the playerbase closer to the high-end, but since those speeds are already possible, I don't see the issue. |
The issue is that freely accessible rest would do some pretty whacked out things to the behavior of the lower end player populace. Not lower level, but lower end, due to play skill, build aptitude, etc... and these are the VAST MAJORITY of the playerbase.
If rest is freely available, it's going to get used freely, and that's going to skew the way people play, and it's going to change the between-fight figures dramatically.
It would further enable pathological builds, such as focusing on damage, accuracy and recharge without any endurance reduction or mitigation to speak of. We already have people running around doing this. Now we want to reward them for it?
Put another way: Free endurance available for just brief moments of delay is like getting free damage.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Let's see... Rest 3 slotted for end mod is over 800% recovery. It boggles my mind that people don't think something like that being available on demand wouldn't be a balance issue or change player's behaviors.
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Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
If rest is freely available, it's going to get used freely, and that's going to skew the way people play, and it's going to change the between-fight figures dramatically.
It would further enable pathological builds, such as focusing on damage, accuracy and recharge without any endurance reduction or mitigation to speak of. We already have people running around doing this. Now we want to reward them for it? Put another way: Free endurance available for just brief moments of delay is like getting free damage. |
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No. I'm not sure off the top of my head, but it's something like 2000%-3000%.
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Originally Posted by Quinch
The recovery cap is what, 300%?
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Two words. Prove it. Prove this is anything *but* complete hyperbole on your part. Oh, nice insult to *most of the playerbase,* by the way, essentially saying most people who play the game are utterly incompetent. (The "low end" - with your own description - "... are the VAST MAJORITY of the playerbase.") |
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
The issue is that freely accessible rest would do some pretty whacked out things to the behavior of the lower end player populace. Not lower level, but lower end, due to play skill, build aptitude, etc... and these are the VAST MAJORITY of the playerbase. If rest is freely available, it's going to get used freely, and that's going to skew the way people play, and it's going to change the between-fight figures dramatically. |
My theory? We'll see it used *slightly* more often on the lower levels. Again, though, people like to keep moving. You'll see the exact same behaviours you see now - passing over a blue, seeing who *needs* to rest, people going AFK and the like. Building with Stamina as a goal, so they can keep moving (and have some counter to end drain effects, from clockwork, Mu, Carnies and Malta - something Rest doesn't provide while in combat.)
See, I *have* played games with instantly available Rest - most recently Aion. There are times it was useful. I could rest, get up, and re-rest, since I'd misclicked and stood up before I was actually ready to engage the *next* mob in a long, drawn out fight. (Easy to do, given it was triggered by - IIRC, the comma - and I'd tend to type and chat.) A string of several difficult fights? I wouldn't have to stand around as long - just hit the "Fast forward (with some vulnerability)" of Rest. Those fights *do* exist here. Yes, you're getting a faster recovery/regen rate... while being locked in place and heavily debuffed.
"Change the between-fight figures dramatically?" I'll believe that as much as I'll believe that what I ate for breakfast today has any impact on the tropical storms in the Atlantic.
The Rest cooldown is a holdover from Jack's "Making things tedious is fun!" era. It's also quite frankly nonsensical to be too tired to sit back down once you've sat down and stood back up for some reason. (For instance, you hit rest, waited a few seconds, and had an ambush come in - which only takes a few seconds to defeat, but as it sits right now, you now can't rest.)
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The regen rate limit is 2000/2500/3000% depending on AT (support at the bottom, brutes/tanks in the mid-range, and scrappers/stalkers at top) while the recovery cap is substantially less (800/650/500%, iirc, with the same order as before).
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
No. I'm not sure off the top of my head, but it's something like 2000%-3000%.
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Ehehehehehno.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
No. I'm not sure off the top of my head, but it's something like 2000%-3000%.
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Tested it with Rest {edit: on a corruptor} - which also has a 425% recovery bonus, by the way - without it, base recovery is 1.67EP/sec - with it is 8.34EP/sec with it, resulting in about 400% recovery bonus. That's after the interruptible six-second animation time.
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I'm pretty sure the blue numbers in the attributes window mean that the value is capped out.
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Psst, quinch, they're talking about the cap.
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Yep. I had the regen numbers on my brain..
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Originally Posted by Umbral
The regen rate limit is 2000/2500/3000% depending on AT (support at the bottom, brutes/tanks in the mid-range, and scrappers/stalkers at top) while the recovery cap is substantially less (800/650/500%, iirc, with the same order as before).
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Hmn. If I'd believe anyone ity would be you, Arcana. But I'm still damn sure that, on mission with my defender for example, I've managed to tick off a Chief Soldier by accident and, one swipe later, im floor paste. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The one shot rule says you cannot be killed by one shot from full health. As long as you start at full health, one shot cannot kill you. One point less, and you can be one-shotted.
The experiment you ask people to do above is how people farmed Immortal. I even was one of the first to recommend using Rikti to do it, and found one of the faster two-box methods for doing it (using Rikti bosses that only had the greater sword melee attack). So I'm pretty sure of the one-shot rule. |
I will go and test that to be sure however.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I'm with Bill; this is hogwash. Calling the 'Vast Majority of the playerbase' 'lower end' is really...hmm..arrogant? On your part. |
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
Yes. The entire game's average reward over time. Not every single player's reward over time, but that of the game as a whole in aggregate. And for those who are only occasionally wanting it, no, it won't impact them much. But as Arcanaville noted earlier.. If you're only occasionally needing it sooner than you are now, why is completely removing recharge superior to simply lowering the recharge?
The issue is that freely accessible rest would do some pretty whacked out things to the behavior of the lower end player populace. Not lower level, but lower end, due to play skill, build aptitude, etc... and these are the VAST MAJORITY of the playerbase. If rest is freely available, it's going to get used freely, and that's going to skew the way people play, and it's going to change the between-fight figures dramatically. It would further enable pathological builds, such as focusing on damage, accuracy and recharge without any endurance reduction or mitigation to speak of. We already have people running around doing this. Now we want to reward them for it? Put another way: Free endurance available for just brief moments of delay is like getting free damage. |
Also, even if thats the case; How the hell does it impact you? So, other people get to enjoy the game more due to not having to alt-tab out waiting for rest and/or health and end to recharge at lower levels? Would the sheer fact that it existed be a permanant slap in the face to you? Would a kitten die because of it every time rest was used betwen fights? Someone think of the children!!
Thats about as much sense as your arguement makes. And I couldn't care less if you classed me or others as 'lower end'. I play the game to have fun and enjoy it, not be 'higher class' at it. Sure, I like making decent builds; thats because it usually increases the fun for me. But, at low levels, having Rest ready to use would seriously cut out the tedium of fights pre-stamina. If having to rest between fights is the price that comes with starting a fight with full health/end, so be it I say.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Why do we have to start every fight topped off, now? I've played too many types of different characters with different types of strengths and strategies to know that I'm not going to need to be at 100% or even 50% every time.
All in all, I think insta-rest will slow everyone down as now you can top off for every fight. I mean, why would you not, right?
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The issue is choice. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Why do we have to start every fight topped off, now? I've played too many types of different characters with different types of strengths and strategies to know that I'm not going to need to be at 100% or even 50% every time.
All in all, I think insta-rest will slow everyone down as now you can top off for every fight. I mean, why would you not, right? |
Some people would rather start each fight, especially against mobs that, while they can handle them, they find slightly too tough to just waltz through.
Some people don't care and will just wade in no matter what state they are in.
The difference is that, while you can currently indeed do both in game anyway, its the former who have to sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting for rest to recharge OR their health/end to come back.
All in all, if this change wouldn't impact some people anyway...why are they the only ones complaining about it? It makes less than no sense. Period.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I guess it only makes less to no sense if you really think those are the only people in the opposing position and for only those reasons you think.
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Alright, I'll make it a hell of a lot simpler.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I guess it only makes less to no sense if you really think those are the only people in the opposing position and for only those reasons you think.
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Give me one good reason that Rest shouldn't have 0 recharge? Because, so far, not one person has been able to provide one.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Well, like I said in my other post in the thread, Rest is powerful. More powerful than those other game versions like 9 dragons. And it's exploitable because we have large freedom of movement and powers/controls that make it safer to use.
Also, we've got powers already as well as natural regeneration and recovery (and ways to improve those) that are practically equivalent of those game's version of Rest but on all the time.
I would love having rest up all the time but I'm not sure our game (or the power itself) is balanced with that in mind.
If people are waiting between spawns until they are at full health and end even without Rest being on 0 recharge, how does changing it to 0 recharge change anything except making a QoL improvement? If the game honestly isnt balanced around health and end, then they should have regen and recovery disabled while on a mission map. Thats the only way such a statement could be true.
And yes, we have ways to improve regen and recovery. These work much more in the middle of a fight, to stop you running out of endurance mid-scrap. They also speed up downtime but, honestly, I would wager actual money that if datamining was done, the vast, vast majority of Rest usage comes pre-stamina. By the time you get to level 22, the usage of Rest will have dropped off to nearly nothing. So, while you may call on it after a particularly viscious mob at later levels, the primary use is pre-20, when it is very common to run out of end after every fight.
So...what was that about balance again? Your one-two shottable while using it, immobile, and all it does is save you time standing around which people do anyway at present...
Right.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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That's not even what the thread says. You've got the majority of those supporting the change saying they use rest to replenish low HP, not because of endurance consumption.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And yes, we have ways to improve regen and recovery. These work much more in the middle of a fight, to stop you running out of endurance mid-scrap. They also speed up downtime but, honestly, I would wager actual money that if datamining was done, the vast, vast majority of Rest usage comes pre-stamina. By the time you get to level 22, the usage of Rest will have dropped off to nearly nothing. So, while you may call on it after a particularly viscious mob at later levels, the primary use is pre-20, when it is very common to run out of end after every fight.
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Besides that, I'd have to ask you to explore exactly what a QoL change really is. Adding 'Overpowered' text to a Controller's hold is a QoL change. Giving you 7 mission slots instead of 3 is a QoL change. I'm not so sure this can be squarely placed in that category.
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So...what was that about balance again? Your one-two shottable while using it, immobile, and all it does is save you time standing around which people do anyway at present... Right. |
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You left out the 'One shot kill' bit. Everyone always does. You happen to forget one minion, or a patrol comes around the corner, your hospital bait. Pure and simple.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
That's not even what the thread says. You've got the majority of those supporting the change saying they use rest to replenish low HP, not because of endurance consumption.
Besides that, I'd have to ask you to explore exactly what a QoL change really is. Adding 'Overpowered' text to a Controller's hold is a QoL change. Giving you 7 mission slots instead of 3 is a QoL change. I'm not so sure this can be squarely placed in that category. It also gives 2x more regen than any other buff, pretty much caps recovery so long as you're not crashing and all you need to do is set aside 10sec. That it isn't *always* available makes it seem balanced, IMO. |
And HP or Endurance, it doesnt matter; people are using Rest to top it up when they need it. If Rest isnt available, those that are arguing for the change are waiting anyway. All this change will do is cut out the longer wait for health/end to come back. Those that don't bother with it won't get any negative effects. In fact, no one gets negative effects from this, period.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Arrrgh. I'm going to throttle you, Alpha, I swear. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
You left out the 'One shot kill' bit. Everyone always does. You happen to forget one minion, or a patrol comes around the corner, your hospital bait. Pure and simple.
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Change your wording to "with a single attack" and you're right. "One shot" is meaning something else, generally - see earlier screenshots for demonstration and explanation. Rest doesn't remove that. It does, however, drop your defense so low you're almost guaranteed to be hit (and if it's a patrol, you're going to be dealing with multiple attackers.)
If I'm resting and a Rikti drone comes around the corner (and is able to do enough damage in one shot that it exceeds my HP) I *will* be hit while in rest, most likely, but won't be killed, as it's just one pulse of energy damage. If it's a Chief Soldier instead, I'll be killed, as I have to absorb two different "hits" of damage - one Energy, one Lethal.
All that said - Rest does have other drawbacks:
- Locks you in place
- Drops your defense to "guaranteed save by luck" levels
- Can't be used in the air (so you are reachable by whatever wanders by,)
- Disables some powers (PFF, I believe Concealment pool as well)
We're not talking about making Rest into Hibernate (available to several melee, all controller/doms, not sure about the other ATs off the top of my head) which *is* usable in combat thanks to it phasing you. That safety measure ensures it keeps recharge. Rest has enough drawbacks that there still has to be thought given to its use. Recharge shouldn't be an issue (and as mentioned, it's nonsensical to be "too tired to rest because I just rested.")
If you just stop and wait for a moment, yes, this is risk free, but it also adds a small amount of delay before you resume producing rewards.
In effect, free access to rest has a side effect of increasing the average reward over time for the entire game. This is a presumably excessive side effect unless you're ALSO prepared to demonstrate that the reward over time in the game is too low.
That's a hard sell.