I like how good and evil blur in GR (mild spoiler)
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2010-08-22 21:01 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
I suppose I can kind of agree with this notion. Although what I would say is that a lot of the time the evil things the Loyalists do seem to stem from the Praetors surrounding Cole. This is partially because you never actually see Cole I guess. So while there is a lot of mud flying around, Cole is never specifically in the picture, it is always his associates. In a way it reminds me of Countess Crey and how the bad things that Crey did were always deflected away from her. So while its posisble to assume Cole is masterminding it all, it is also possible to assume he is sitting in his ivory tower blissfully unaware of the corruption as well. Well apart from the plans to invade Primal Earth, but I do see some logic behind his reasoning.
|
Originally Posted by Divus
Actually it seems that the playerbase is acutely aware of what the Resistance does and less aware of what the Loyalists do on a daily, since more often than not, you have to play find out all of the dirt. (Well that and if GG posts the litany, people are more likely to say "So what, we're safe. Screw those guys.")
|
Quote:
Even if Scott isn't working for Cole he could fill the role of useful idiot.
|
Originally Posted by Peacemoon
Funny you say that Divus, because I started wondering about the possibility that Calvin Scott is actually working for Cole. Surely Cole knows you can never completely squash opposition, but you can effectively monitor it if you set up an outlet for it.
Also about what I said earlier, I meant that the Resistance only seem to see Loyalists as evil. I've done the Warden arcs where you have to actively stop the Crusader's from committing mass murder. Although I did note, the contacts seemed much more worried about the bad publicity it would have created then the innocent lives it would have cost. ;-) |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Golden Girl suffers from "the false belief fallacy".
If you take a child below a certain age and reasoning ability and show them a box of crayons that is closed and contains pencils not crayons. Ask them what is inside the box. They will say crayons.Then you show this child the pencils inside. Then you ask the child, "If I showed this box to an other kid and ask them what's inside the box, what would their answer be?"
Below a certain age the child will always respond, "Pencils!"
Even though the child knows it was wrong on the first guess because of the type of box, they can't imagine someone else NOT knowing what they NOW know!
They can't grasp the idea of a different perspective, and a different knowledge base to work from.
They literally can't imagine how someone else thinks.
Everyone knows what you already know, and no one has a different perspective.
Many of the folk in Preatoria haven't seen the pencils yet, and still believe in crayons.
Dr Tanaka 50 Stone/Stone Tank
Cool MacCool 50 AR/Ice Blaster
Cold MacCool 50 ice/ice Blaster
Alura Darkstone 41 Brute Dark/Stone
Dr Akanat 40 Brute Stone/Stone
and many more
I think I know what Tonaka is speaking about, but I have always been given the example of glasses of water.
If you fill a narrow tall glass with 100ml of water, and a short wide glass with 100ml of water, and ask young kids which glass has more water, they will always say the taller one. Even if you show them that each glass has the exact same quantity. ;-)
Of course it doesn't make sense to you - that was the point.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
It makes perfect sense to me: Tonaka is basically insinuating that you lack a developed theory of mind. Which is pretty much what I've been saying: you demonstrate an inability to reason about how someone who doesn't know what you know would think given the knowledge that they have. Or are you ready to present the case for why a citizen of Praetoria, raised on propaganda, leisure, and mood stabilizing chemicals, unaware of the secret crimes of the state, and extremely aware of the threat that still lurks outside the sonic fences, would choose to beat down two policemen and free a terrorist?
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
Not everyone who plays the tutorial is assumed to be from Tyrant's empire |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Or are you ready to present the case for why a citizen of Praetoria, raised on propaganda, leisure, and mood stabilizing chemicals, unaware of the secret crimes of the state, and extremely aware of the threat that still lurks outside the sonic fences, would choose to beat down two policemen and free a terrorist?
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Nice touch. Quoting the guy that according to some historians was called the Town Destroyer by the Seneca Indians because in 1779 he sent Major General John Sullivan to conduct a scorched earth campaign against the four nations of the Iroquois which destroyed over 40 of their villages during the Revolutionary War. The devastation created great hardships for the thousands of Iroquois refugees outside Fort Niagara that winter, and many starved or froze to death.
|
Originally Posted by Melancton
George Washington in a letter to a friend
"Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair; the event which is in the hands of God." George Washington, Constitutional Convention, 1787 |
Quote:
At this point I'm pretty sure I'm being trolled... again... but what the heck. You can't avoid a scenario by introducing optional escape clauses. I never claimed that everyone must be a citizen of the Empire, nor that everyone must be a Loyalist. I am saying that a citizen of the Empire, even a principled one who only wants to help people, may come to a reasonable conclusion at the outset that the best way to do so is within the system rather than in league with terrorists. No matter what you may say about the Warden path's morality overall, you cannot put aside that the first step on that path is to beat two police officers, to the point of either unconsciousness or death, and free an unrepentant terrorist.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Not everyone who plays the tutorial is assumed to be from Tyrant's empire
|
In my opinion, the "good" paths, both Responsibility Loyalist and Warden Resistance, come to a point where to stay "good" you must turn away from a focus on the conflict between the two sides and look for a third way. Fittingly, this happens at just about the point where a third way is being introduced: Primal Earth. Wardens who stay Resistance through their last mission, and Responsibles who stay Loyalist through their last mission, have both compromised their empathy for their principles.
Of course, since my opinion differs from yours it can be casually dismissed. Probably with a wink. This is why talking with you is a worthless waste of time, except inasmuch as it provokes me to form cogent arguments for the benefit of people who aren't you.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
The universe owes us nothing. And it is the very height of arrogance to think otherwise.|
Originally Posted by Melancton
Liberty is an unalienable right endowed by the Creator. This Truth is self-evident.
|
There, we have both said our parts. And neither will convince the other. So let us speak of this no more.
I do not suffer from altitis, I enjoy every character of it.
Quote:
I don't disagree with you, but where do we draw that line? How much freedom is enough? Is the state of Texas evil because it limits a citizen's freedom to exceed 75 mph on the highway? Is the city of Chicago evil because it's citizens are not free to throw their waste onto the streets? Is the federal government evil because it bans the possession of child pornography?|
Originally Posted by Melancton
Liberty is an unalienable right endowed by the Creator. This Truth is self-evident.
|
As long as we have some form of government, we will be giving up some freedom for safety. Unless you think the above examples are "evil" you agree with this. The debate is where to draw the line. It's a debate that's going on in the United States right now in fact: should the government have the right to compel a citizen to purchase health insurance? Some people don't care, some people think they should, while others think it's 'evil.' The world isn't as black and white as people would like to believe.
Quote:
However Praetoria takes things to a rather ludicrous extreme...but then again, people in Russia miss the Soviet Union. |
Originally Posted by Dementor_NA
I don't disagree with you, but where do we draw that line? How much freedom is enough? Is the state of Texas evil because it limits a citizen's freedom to exceed 75 mph on the highway? Is the city of Chicago evil because it's citizens are not free to throw their waste onto the streets? Is the federal government evil because it bans the possession of child pornography?
As long as we have some form of government, we will be giving up some freedom for safety. Unless you think the above examples are "evil" you agree with this. The debate is where to draw the line. It's a debate that's going on in the United States right now in fact: should the government have the right to compel a citizen to purchase health insurance? Some people don't care, some people think they should, while others think it's 'evil.' The world isn't as black and white as people would like to believe. |
I think in the end I'm "On Primal's Side." Get your damn dirty Praetorian fingers offa my Urth.
Quote:
Though in its comic book environment with the Clockwork doing the work I find myself wondering what they want in regards to freedom and liberty. I'd say Cole's only mistake is in not letting them opt out of living in his city.|
Originally Posted by Divus
However Praetoria takes things to a rather ludicrous extreme...but then again, people in Russia miss the Soviet Union.
I think in the end I'm "On Primal's Side." Get your damn dirty Praetorian fingers offa my Urth. |
"We don't want to live under your rule!"
"Ok. Gate is over there. Once you leave you may not return."
I also find myself wondering what he even needs the people for. Normally a tyrant/dictator needs the people to effectively be his slaves in the service of his empire but he has the clockwork for that. If he wants love and admiration he ought to only want those who do.
It's a weird world.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
Yeah, that's why I am increasingly believing that the Resistance is just another element of the system, a somewhat effective means of isolating disruptive agents and putting them to use reinforcing the dream of Praetoria for the rest of the population. |
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Though in its comic book environment with the Clockwork doing the work I find myself wondering what they want in regards to freedom and liberty. I'd say Cole's only mistake is in not letting them opt out of living in his city.
"We don't want to live under your rule!" "Ok. Gate is over there. Once you leave you may not return." I also find myself wondering what he even needs the people for. Normally a tyrant/dictator needs the people to effectively be his slaves in the service of his empire but he has the clockwork for that. If he wants love and admiration he ought to only want those who do. It's a weird world. |
However, I am still a bit concerned about what happens to men who have the Praetorian Epic Archetype potential that allows them to be a Seer. Are then just off the network and in cold storage? Or are they in cold storage as Psychic Bombs in case the DE get too unruly?
Quote:
I think it ultimately depends upon the situation. In a world like the one today I don't think there's a particular need to relinquish any of the freedoms currently available. We have a gigantic base population, we've got incredible amounts of information at our fingertips, and our infrastructure is fairly well developed (in some areas anyway).|
Originally Posted by Dementor_NA
I don't disagree with you, but where do we draw that line? How much freedom is enough? Is the state of Texas evil because it limits a citizen's freedom to exceed 75 mph on the highway? Is the city of Chicago evil because it's citizens are not free to throw their waste onto the streets? Is the federal government evil because it bans the possession of child pornography?
As long as we have some form of government, we will be giving up some freedom for safety. Unless you think the above examples are "evil" you agree with this. The debate is where to draw the line. It's a debate that's going on in the United States right now in fact: should the government have the right to compel a citizen to purchase health insurance? Some people don't care, some people think they should, while others think it's 'evil.' The world isn't as black and white as people would like to believe. |
On the other hand, let's say there's a colony on the moon. Just how much freedom can you have in an environment where there is limited everything? In order to keep the colony from falling apart you would need to strictly control a LOT, from food rations to population growth. In a situation like that, how much dissent can you allow before it becomes a danger to everyone's very survival?
And then you have Praetoria, which is from all details supposedly an oasis of civilization amidst a post-apocalyptic wasteland -- albeit a lush, green, verdant abomination of a wasteland. Humanity has been bumped down in population from several billion to...at best I'd say 75 million globally? With MAYBE 5 to 10 in Praetoria proper? It's easy to talk about how there's "no threat anymore" when neither side gets any real information on the status of the Devouring Earth outside the barrier, and of course the same is true for statements of "the threat is still out there." However, when your race is completely wrecked and taken from the dominant species on the planet to potentially second-fiddle to a bunch of environment-nutcase mutants...I'm not sure the former statement would be useful, especially with no information to go on. Especially if it turns out you're wrong.
To make my point more succinct (tl;dr as it were), freedom evaporates in survival (and even just hard) situations because freedom is a privilege that developed because of relatively abundant prosperity. History's replete with examples of this type of stuff. Not that I think Praetoria is the BESTEST BEST PLACE EVEEER to live, but I understand how a society could become that way, why it's so morally ambiguous, and how the Resistance could in fact be (but isn't necessarily) the greater of the two "evils". It's actually pretty realistic all things considered, I commend the writers for it.
Birth of a Villain Group (Arc ID 60573): Designed for villains level 1 - 10. Found a villainous organization on Mercy Island. Find a base, recruit some minions, gather valuable equipment, and destroy your enemies!
Quote:
A thoughtful post, Dementor. |
Originally Posted by Dementor_NA
I don't disagree with you, but where do we draw that line? How much freedom is enough? Is the state of Texas evil because it limits a citizen's freedom to exceed 75 mph on the highway? Is the city of Chicago evil because it's citizens are not free to throw their waste onto the streets? Is the federal government evil because it bans the possession of child pornography?
As long as we have some form of government, we will be giving up some freedom for safety. Unless you think the above examples are "evil" you agree with this. The debate is where to draw the line. It's a debate that's going on in the United States right now in fact: should the government have the right to compel a citizen to purchase health insurance? Some people don't care, some people think they should, while others think it's 'evil.' The world isn't as black and white as people would like to believe. |
I think it leaves us in the territory of the quote that "Democracy is the worst form of government possible, except for all the others." The United States has a series of checks and balances designed to keep power from getting too concentrated while still allowing legitimate governmental function such as you describe. The Automobile of State will swerve from side to side upon occasion but pretty much gets us down the road well, or as much as is possible given the condition of humans. Eventually, we tend to get things right, but it has been rough sledding in some patches.
Obviously we cannot cover every situation or detail, and I don't want to delve into Spoilers as such, but I think the canary in the mine for the Cole regime, as it were, is the treatment of dissent. Just reading the inscription for the statue of "Mother" Tilman and of Cole himself, one gets the feeling that there will be a problem if one dissents, much as expressed in this dialogue between El Zorro (in his secret identity) and a political activist:
Charlotte Taylor Wilson: You don't really believe the people are happy!
Don Diego: All I know is the soldiers are quite happy shooting the people who say the people are not happy.
There is more to it than that, obviously, but your points are well taken.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
Quote:
That area of conflict had plenty of acts on both sides that are nothing to be proud of. But let us be clear that the context for what you are talking about is open war, not the rules for a civil government in time of peace. What is proper in war takes us pretty far afield from the topic at hand. I will simply note that the expression "War is Hell" has been diluted--- war is every horror imaginable to the greatest measure, like Hell itself, which is why it should be avoided whenever possible.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Nice touch. Quoting the guy that according to some historians was called the Town Destroyer by the Seneca Indians because in 1779 he sent Major General John Sullivan to conduct a scorched earth campaign against the four nations of the Iroquois which destroyed over 40 of their villages during the Revolutionary War. The devastation created great hardships for the thousands of Iroquois refugees outside Fort Niagara that winter, and many starved or froze to death.
|
It was offered to George Washington to become King, and he refused, which is more pertinent to the topic at hand. He also declined to serve more than two terms as President, though he likely could have served as long as he had desired. He was not perfect, nor did he do everything right, but he did so much so well that he has also been called "the Indispensible Man," without whom our democratic republic would have foundered.
To the point, Washington led the nation through a time of mortal perils and did not establish himself as a dictator, although he could have. In Praetoria, Marcus Cole did become such a dictator.
Fortunately for all of us, Cole is a fictitious character and Washington was not.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
Quote:
Thanks for responding. |
Originally Posted by Melancton
That area of conflict had plenty of acts on both sides that are nothing to be proud of. But let us be clear that the context for what you are talking about is open war, not the rules for a civil government in time of peace. What is proper in war takes us pretty far afield from the topic at hand. I will simply note that the expression "War is Hell" has been diluted--- war is every horror imaginable to the greatest measure, like Hell itself, which is why it should be avoided whenever possible.
It was offered to George Washington to become King, and he refused, which is more pertinent to the topic at hand. He also declined to serve more than two terms as President, though he likely could have served as long as he had desired. He was not perfect, nor did he do everything right, but he did so much so well that he has also been called "the Indispensible Man," without whom our democratic republic would have foundered. To the point, Washington led the nation through a time of mortal perils and did not establish himself as a dictator, although he could have. In Praetoria, Marcus Cole did become such a dictator. Fortunately for all of us, Cole is a fictitious character and Washington was not. |
The point I'm making by bringing up that aspect of G.W.'s past is that even our enlightened government doesn't have clean hands so to speak. Even tho we like to portray our founding father's in a benevolent aspect, it's not actually factual. They did what had to be done and sometimes those things were pretty ugly.
If we were to look at just the bad things our own government has done since it's conception I'd say it's record is at least as bad as Emperor Cole's.
Quote:
My pleasure, Forbin. We are just chatting here, having a good time. |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Thanks for responding.
. |
Quote:
| The point I'm making by bringing up that aspect of G.W.'s past is that even our enlightened government doesn't have clean hands so to speak. Even tho we like to portray our founding father's in a benevolent aspect, it's not actually factual. They did what had to be done and sometimes those things were pretty ugly. |
I will just leave it at that, lest I go too far afield. I simply feel that while the United States is not perfect, Nobody Does It Better.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
Quote:
While I agree with you, I think hypothetically for us to make a fair comparison we'd need to see what Praetoria has become in 200+ years. Then we can judge if what Cole created was a despotic tyranny or if it evolved into something far better. |
Originally Posted by Melancton
My pleasure, Forbin. We are just chatting here, having a good time.
I think the striking thing is not that the Founders and the subsequent Nation never did anything wrong, it is that they did so much RIGHT. Especially so by comparison. I will just leave it at that, lest I go too far afield. I simply feel that while the United States is not perfect, Nobody Does It Better. |
Quote:
Part of the problem is Cole is immortal.. sometimes bad governments can become much better simply through the fact that leaders can change naturally (Look at how much Britain has changed from 1000 years ago, and it never had an actual regime change or revolution). Mother Mayhem is effectively immortal, as well (body-hopping).
|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
While I agree with you, I think hypothetically for us to make a fair comparison we'd need to see what Praetoria has become in 200+ years. Then we can judge if what Cole created was a despotic tyranny or if it evolved into something far better.
|
Quote:
What you say is true but people can also change. Depending on what happens in the Praetorian universe things could get better or worse under Cole's leadership.
|
Originally Posted by jackal913
Part of the problem is Cole is immortal.. sometimes bad governments can become much better simply through the fact that leaders can change naturally (Look at how much Britain has changed from 1000 years ago, and it never had an actual regime change or revolution). Mother Mayhem is effectively immortal, as well (body-hopping).
|
Quote:
It'll be liberated by then - even with an immortal dictator in charge, no tyranny can last forever.
|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
we'd need to see what Praetoria has become in 200+ years.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Funny you say that Divus, because I started wondering about the possibility that Calvin Scott is actually working for Cole. Surely Cole knows you can never completely squash opposition, but you can effectively monitor it if you set up an outlet for it.
Also about what I said earlier, I meant that the Resistance only seem to see Loyalists as evil. I've done the Warden arcs where you have to actively stop the Crusader's from committing mass murder. Although I did note, the contacts seemed much more worried about the bad publicity it would have created then the innocent lives it would have cost. ;-)