I like how good and evil blur in GR (mild spoiler)
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2010-08-22 21:01 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Sorry, the world doesn't work that way. You don't blame the police for the dictatorship.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
All loyalists work for a dictatorship that is worse than anything in RL history - they're agents of evil, and everything they do helps keep the dictatorship in power.
They're servants of a system that is rotten and corrupt to the core, and it's very existence is a crime against humanity. |
If they allow the dictatorship to continue, it's only because they are saving the lives of people the Resistance are trying to kill.
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The PPD have kill chambers under their headquarters, they are part of the problem.
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Originally Posted by Zikar
Sorry, the world doesn't work that way. You don't blame the police for the dictatorship.
If they allow the dictatorship to continue, it's only because they are saving the lives of people the Resistance are trying to kill. |
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You mean the Paragon Police Department not the Praetorian Police Department, right?
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Originally Posted by Divus
The PPD have kill chambers under their headquarters, they are part of the problem.
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I mean the Praetorian Police department, specifically the PPD in Nova Praetoria. If you explore the underground it's an actual area you can blunder into.
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
You mean the Paragon Police Department not the Praetorian Police Department, right?
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I could dispute a number of these claims, but actually, I don't have to, because they're irrelevant. If you are interested in refuting my position, you need to show that an average Praetorian citizen, who knows none of the secrets that the Praetors keep from the public and even from most of their underlings, would easily be able to tell that the Resistance are better than the Loyalists. Reciting the secret evils of the Empire is not relevant.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
All loyalists work for a dictatorship that is worse than anything in RL history - they're agents of evil, and everything they do helps keep the dictatorship in power.
They're servants of a system that is rotten and corrupt to the core, and it's very existence is a crime against humanity. |
FWIW, my Loyalist, who I played as having had direct personal experience with the very worst of the fighting in the Hamidon Wars (an entirely plausible background, by the way), stayed Responsibility Loyalist from beginning to end. To her, the most important thing is that the citizens of Praetoria be saved from the Hamidon, and she never encountered any evidence that the Praetorian system wasn't doing a better job of this than the Resistance would. Her attitude toward the Empire is "I don't like it, but we're stuck with it until we can make something better without tearing down everything we fought so hard to preserve in the process."
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
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The police exist to enforce the law and maintain the power structure, whatever the law and the power structure might be.
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Originally Posted by Zikar
Sorry, the world doesn't work that way. You don't blame the police for the dictatorship.
If they allow the dictatorship to continue, it's only because they are saving the lives of people the Resistance are trying to kill. |
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Yes it does - in RL, dictatorships fall once the police and/or army side with an uprising against them - if the PPD and the Powers Division turned againt Tyrant and the Praetors, they dictatorship would collapse.|
Originally Posted by Zikar
Sorry, the world doesn't work that way. You don't blame the police for the dictatorship.
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There's Tyrant plus 12-14 Praetors - they can't run the dictatorship by themselves, so Tyrant employs several levels of administration and law enforcement to carry out his will - and everyone is a cog in the evil machine he's built - but take out the cogs, and the mahcine falls apart.
Tyrant can't run his prisons, his torture chambers, his enslavement programs, his death squads, his propaganda system, his water drugging activities or his general intimidation and repression of the people without a the massive army of willing followers he has in the Powers Division and the PPD.
If they turned against him, the entire horrific system would cease to exist.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Plus, you can also get a badge for finding one of the PPD torture centers under the Precinct buildings.
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Originally Posted by Divus
I mean the Praetorian Police department, specifically the PPD in Nova Praetoria. If you explore the underground it's an actual area you can blunder into.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Only the true fascists see the world in such black and white terms. What you're saying amounts to, "You are either with us or against us," and ignores the good that people working within the system can accomplish, just because its leaders are corrupt. The Wardens are blind to the consequences of their actions.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
All loyalists work for a dictatorship that is worse than anything in RL history - they're agents of evil, and everything they do helps keep the dictatorship in power.
They're servants of a system that is rotten and corrupt to the core, and it's very existence is a crime against humanity. |
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Actually, this is one place where stories like Praetoria's genuinely take a turn for the strange: super-powers. Hitler and Stalin weren't capable of throwing tanks and knocking artillery shells and missiles out of the air with their hands, like General Zod in "Superman II."
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
If they turned against him, the entire horrific system would cease to exist.
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That's not what "fascist" means.
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Originally Posted by MTS
Only the true fascists see the world in such black and white terms.
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You're missing the point - it's not just the laeders who are corrupt - they're not the exception in the system, they're the rule - the entire system is corrupt from top to bottom - every level of the dictatorship is rotten and vile and comitting crimes on a daily basis.|
Originally Posted by MTS
Only the true fascists see the world in such black and white terms. What you're saying amounts to, "You are either with us or against us," and ignores the good that people working within the system can accomplish, just because its leaders are corrupt.
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The enslavement of the Seers is government policy.
The drugging of the citizens to turn them into docile zombies is government policy.
The thought police are government policy.
The regular use of torture is government policy.
The imprisonment without trial is government policy.
The tight control on the media and the education system is government policy.
The mass murder of critics is government policy.
The general repression and harassment of the citizens in government policy.
It's not a few "bad apples" or rogue elements in the system that are the problem - it's the entire system itself - the crimes being carried out are the system, not something separate from it.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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But that's also balanced by the fact that the people working for Tyrant have superpowers too - Tyrant vs a normal army wouldn't be much of a contest, but Tyrant vs several thousand members of the Powers Division might be another story.
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Originally Posted by Hundred_Nations
Actually, this is one place where stories like Praetoria's genuinely take a turn for the strange: super-powers. Hitler and Stalin weren't capable of throwing tanks and knocking artillery shells and missiles out of the air with their hands, like General Zod in "Superman II."
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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You're really only making my point for me, you know. The Loyalist Responsibility line of missions is expressly about being introduced to the inner workings of the regime and, sooner or later, turning away from it. And then what?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Yes it does - in RL, dictatorships fall once the police and/or army side with an uprising against them - if the PPD and the Powers Division turned againt Tyrant and the Praetors, they dictatorship would collapse.
There's Tyrant plus 12-14 Praetors - they can't run the dictatorship by themselves, so Tyrant employs several levels of administration and law enforcement to carry out his will - and everyone is a cog in the evil machine he's built - but take out the cogs, and the mahcine falls apart. Tyrant can't run his prisons, his torture chambers, his enslavement programs, his death squads, his propaganda system, his water drugging activities or his general intimidation and repression of the people without a the massive army of willing followers he has in the Powers Division and the PPD. If they turned against him, the entire horrific system would cease to exist. |
It's true that Cole can't run the system singlehandedly. But he can destroy it singlehandedly. If the PPD and Powers Division turned against him, the entire horrific system might indeed cease to exist, but there's no guarantee it would end well for anyone. When you and everyone you love are trapped on a life raft with sharks circling below, you don't antagonize the madman holding a grenade - you do what he says when he's watching, do as much good as you can when he's not, and hope for rescue.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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And when the madman is an immortal who can survive a direct hit from a nuke, how long do you just stand their screaming "hail Cole" in the hope that you won't be the next one to "disappear" if you happen to let a "bad" thought enter your mind?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Wow, it's been out for a whole week. Those of you who aren't in the know should play faster |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
GR has been out for a week now, and any discussion about the game setting will involve details about the set up of Praetoria - if you want to try and avoid even the most basic info on the setting, avoid any threads discussing Praetoria.
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What's really funny is how much of a hypocrite she actually is.|
Originally Posted by ViralShard
So here we are; everyone has been chased away, the world is safe from the evils of opinions not her own, and the moral fiber of the world is safe and sound and colored in Gold. Of course I have no idea how she justifies her actions and the notions that she's right and we're wrong and how we should all just shut up and get behind her. Insane Troll Logic probably
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If she really believes all the crap she's spewing, then the fact that she praises the devs on their work and continues to monetarily support a game which makes it easier and easier to cross the line to gray areas and outright evil, means that she has about as much true conviction as a hamster. Guess who creates the evil content you hate so much!!
And even if she actually 'won', what would that mean? If we all up and followed her way of thinking then we happily leave half the content of the game unplayed and unexperienced(not a word)? Just because we made the 'right' choice in terms of playstyle?
How many great games would I not have been able to play if had that philosophy? Let's see...Prototype, Dungeon Keeper, Darksiders(coming out for PC soon!), no Warhammer 40K games at all! Far Cry 2, Jedi Outcast, Hitman, Overlord.
I mean, what is the overall point? I'm all for threads discussing how morality choices affect the gameplay experience, but I don't need each of those threads to be constantly hijacked by stupid one liners and winkies. If she actually had a point to make and discuss that would be one thing. But all the rest is just silly hot air.
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It is when applied to the Wardens.|
Originally Posted by Hundred_Nations
That's not what "fascist" means.
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BIG SPOILERS BELOW - DO NOT READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED
They blow up an Enriche distribution plant. It will prevent the mood-altering drugs from affecting the populace, but will also leave them without fresh water. People will get sick. People will die.
They unilaterally decide that the best way to "save" people is to sacrifice some of them to do it. The people in question have no choice in the matter, the Resistance obviously knows what's best for them. They're no better than Cole and his gang of Thugs.
Keep trolling and spouting your Anarchist propaganda.
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or you should have played the beta to death so you can patronize people with your 'insider knowledge'
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Originally Posted by Obsidius
Wow, it's been out for a whole week. Those of you who aren't in the know should play faster
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Well, only if they don't boil their water |
Originally Posted by MTS
They blow up an Enriche distribution plant. It will prevent the mood-altering drugs from affecting the populace, but will also leave them without fresh water. People will get sick. People will die.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Like the OP I was fully expecting the story of GR to come down to Resistance = Good and Loyalist = Bad. I held out hope that there would be at least a hint that the Resistance weren't all good, or that you could be a Loyalist without being a stereotypical villain, but I wasn't expecting much.
GR has totally exceeded my expectations. When I was running the hospital bombing mission with my Loyalist I could barely believe it - yes, these resistance guys I'd been fighting were terrorists, no question about it. I'm surprised, and very pleased, that the devs have been so willing to portray the 'good guys' like this.
Despite the very impressive new zone tech on display; the interesting and challenging new enemy groups and missions; the excellent new powersets... the thing that's impressed me most in GR is the writing, and how intelligent and well thought out it is.
There's a lot of talk about 'adult' content in games, and usually all that means is sex, gore and strong language... but GR is truly adult content - intelligent, challenging and thought provoking.
Bravo, Devs.
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You're totally misisng the point - no one claims Arachnos is morally gray |
Originally Posted by Slashman
What's really funny is how much of a hypocrite she actually is.
If she really believes all the crap she's spewing, then the fact that she praises the devs on their work and continues to monetarily support a game which makes it easier and easier to cross the line to gray areas and outright evil, means that she has about as much true conviction as a hamster. Guess who creates the evil content you hate so much!! And even if she actually 'won', what would that mean? If we all up and followed her way of thinking then we happily leave half the content of the game unplayed and unexperienced(not a word)? Just because we made the 'right' choice in terms of playstyle? How many great games would I not have been able to play if had that philosophy? Let's see...Prototype, Dungeon Keeper, Darksiders(coming out for PC soon!), no Warhammer 40K games at all! Far Cry 2, Jedi Outcast, Hitman, Overlord. I mean, what is the overall point? I'm all for threads discussing how morality choices affect the gameplay experience, but I don't need each of those threads to be constantly hijacked by stupid one liners and winkies. If she actually had a point to make and discuss that would be one thing. But all the rest is just silly hot air. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
/me idly wonders if the forum's ban on political discussions extends to Praetorian politics, and if perhaps it should 
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You don't know what fascism is. Your statement "Only the true fascists see the world in such black and white terms" is patently false; lots of people who aren't fascists see the world in such black and white terms. In fact, it seems like GG - the very person you're accusing of black-and-white thinking - is pretty much opposed to authoritarianism. |
Originally Posted by MTS
It is when applied to the Wardens.
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Originally Posted by MTS
BIG SPOILERS BELOW - DO NOT READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED
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Originally Posted by Hundred_Nations
[spoiler in this paragraph]
The moment that most made me question my actions - and the Resistance, even the Wardens - was the destruction of the Enriche production facilities, because that left Praetoria without drinking water. That's catastrophic. My Contact didn't reveal that little detail until after I had detonated the bombs, and I was actually pretty angry with him. I thought it was a great piece of storytelling! My Contact, as I interpreted it, deliberately kept me in the dark because he knew I would balk. |
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Originally Posted by MTS
Keep trolling and spouting your Anarchist propaganda.
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They're servants of a system that is rotten and corrupt to the core, and it's very existence is a crime against humanity.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork