I like how good and evil blur in GR (mild spoiler)
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2010-08-22 21:01 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
If there's one thing that I've learned in my gaming career, it's that there are no good guys, just different PoVs.
- Im Not Talking Fast, You're Just Listening Slow.
- To Each His Own
That sounds more like real life than games.
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The loyalists are serving a fascist dictatorship of nightmare proportions - it's very existence is a crime against humanity.|
Originally Posted by Adelie
When I first heard of GR and the loyalists and resistance, knowing the Tyrant stories from the main hero side game, I assumed that loyalists would be an evil oppressive regime (not unlike Arachnos) and that the resistance would be the good guys. But that is flipped on its head.
The true evil is the Resistance line of underground contacts and the true goldenboy good early on is the loyalist responsibility line of contacts. I love how its inverse to what I expected. |
Among toher things, Tyrant's govenrment does the following:
Drugs the citizens to be docile and unquestioning
Enslaves all young psychic girls and destroys them in the Seer network
Imprisons anyone who speaks out against the dictatorship
Carries out mass murder on a daily basis
Has thought police on almost every street corner
Opens fire on protesters
Has torture chambers under the police buildings
Controls the media and education system
Makes critics or anyone who tries to tell the truth about the government "disappear"
Plans to invade Primal Earth with the intntion of wiping outn every single superpowered person there and enslaving the rest.
All loyalists enable this utterly evil system to continue to exist, and are guilty of supporting the worst examples of evil so far seen in the game.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I've gone through almost all of the GR content, although don't judge me by my current character level because I keep tearing him down and rebuilding him to experiment with different classes and powers (hey, I'm new).
However, I see the GR storyline as morally grey, which I imagine was the developers' intention. Tyrant very much reminds me of Ashur from The Pitt (Fallout 3), although not nearly as gritty. Both are trying to carve out a better life for their people in a dangerous world. Both use undeniably evil methods to reach that end. The Resistance to me seems like Werhner and Midea. They have moral right to their arguments, but the methods that they wish to use to implement that right are questionable at best, and monsterous at worst.
All in all, it makes for a lot of fun in Going Rogue.
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That's not what Tyrant's doing - he's trying to make humans behave like robots - he's decided that humans can't be allowed to be humans and make the mistakes that are part of human nature - so he's stripped them of their humanity, and reduced them to the level of drugged zombies who don't even have the most basic human rights like freedom of speech and freedom of thought.
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Originally Posted by Mister Wolfram
Both are trying to carve out a better life for their people in a dangerous world.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Supporting the Resistance replaces those problems with other problems just as bad with the added problem that no one will get to live in peace.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The loyalists are serving a fascist dictatorship of nightmare proportions - it's very existence is a crime against humanity.
Among toher things, Tyrant's govenrment does the following: Drugs the citizens to be docile and unquestioning Enslaves all young psychic girls and destroys them in the Seer network Imprisons anyone who speaks out against the dictatorship Carries out mass murder on a daily basis Has thought police on almost every street corner Opens fire on protesters Has torture chambers under the police buildings Controls the media and education system Makes critics or anyone who tries to tell the truth about the government "disappear" Plans to invade Primal Earth with the intntion of wiping outn every single superpowered person there and enslaving the rest. All loyalists enable this utterly evil system to continue to exist, and are guilty of supporting the worst examples of evil so far seen in the game. |
Cole is actually the lesser of two evils because he actually gives something back for all that he takes. The Resistance, not so much.
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You mean Tyrant has rigged the sonic fence to collapse the moment he loses power?
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Originally Posted by Zikar
Supporting the Resistance replaces those problems with other problems just as bad with the added problem that no one will get to live in peace.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I mean the Resistance will keep order about as well as a sieve holds water.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
You mean Tyrant has rigged the sonic fence to collapse the moment he loses power?
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After they've killed thousands, destroyed Praetoria's infrastructure, police force and the like, what'll be left is a hull of a city. Barely enough food or water, no power (power stations are a target for blowing up after all) no police force, no hospitals (all blown up) no nothing really.
There'll be riots, gangs will rule the streets. I expect that the Resistance will soon fall apart in a power struggle between it's two factions. Of course, the Syndicate will also be trying to gain more power during this time too.
I expect Praetoria will be more like the Rogue Isles if the Resistance ever win, except even worse.
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Well, yes he is doing all of those things. As I understand it, Praetoria is the dystopic version of Paragon City. So, at the same time, Tyrant is giving his people peace and security, albeit at the cost of their freedom. The Resistance gives you the freedom that is desired, but at the cost of a future that is much less certain. As such, picking a side in the conflict is a tough decision, which is what makes the story arc so compelling.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's not what Tyrant's doing - he's trying to make humans behave like robots - he's decided that humans can't be allowed to be humans and make the mistakes that are part of human nature - so he's stripped them of their humanity, and reduced them to the level of drugged zombies who don't even have the most basic human rights like freedom of speech and freedom of thought.
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Not when the heroes of Piimal Earth are there to help |
Originally Posted by Zikar
I mean the Resistance will keep order about as well as a sieve holds water.
After they've killed thousands, destroyed Praetoria's infrastructure, police force and the like, what'll be left is a hull of a city. Barely enough food or water, no power (power stations are a target for blowing up after all) no police force, no hospitals (all blown up) no nothing really. There'll be riots, gangs will rule the streets. I expect that the Resistance will soon fall apart in a power struggle between it's two factions. Of course, the Syndicate will also be trying to gain more power during this time too. I expect Praetoria will be more like the Rogue Isles if the Resistance ever win, except even worse. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
After playing both loyalists and resistance a fair bit now.
Yea, the line between good and evil blur alot.
Sure emperor cole and his praetors are responsible for alot of evil crimes. But at the same time they try to keep the peace, and the police uses non lethal weapons.
The resistance want to save the people from the tyrant cole, but will also go to great lengths to do that, even kill innocent people. And considering who they ally with from primal earth...
The stories are really well written and fun to play. I have to applaud Paragon here, the content is brilliant and i really hope we see more of those.
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Yeah, sure, because the heroes of primal earth are soooooo good at completely eliminating crime and keeping order on their world they can just rush on over and take care of that one as well. When I see less, freakshow, outcasts, skulls, council, 5th column, lost, and CoT on the streets of Paragon than I see actual citizens come talk to me about the great heroes of Primal Earth.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Not when the heroes of Piimal Earth are there to help
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If the Resistance actually succeeded in taking down Tyrant's regime that little pocket of drugged out zombie paradise would turn into the Manhattan island prison from Escape from New York in about 2 weeks.
The Revenants and Vengeance Imperium-Triumph, Champion & now flavoring Justice!
Tanker Tuesdays & Brutal Thursdays. If you like fun, look'em up!
Shhh! Rangle is plotting.
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You are so caught up in a weird, freakish fog of your own making that it's really quite nauseating.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Not when the heroes of Piimal Earth are there to help
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Here's a news flash: People have different views. I know it must be tough to have to face the fact that, every day, you are in a world filled with other humans who don't give a whit about why you think your take on a given situation is the only way to look at things.
Could you please, for a single moment, stop trying to lead a moral crusade in a freaking video game? Do you realize how stupid and childish that actually is?
I mean seriously...winkies aside for once, get a grip!
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Actually, it's more of a copy of the Rogue Isles, but with the evil dialed up a bit more:|
Originally Posted by Mister Wolfram
As I understand it, Praetoria is the dystopic version of Paragon City.
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A power-crazed Incarnate ruling with an iron first from his huge tower - Tyrant/Recluse.
An inner circle of very powerful, very dangerous and very evil villains with their own agendas and plots - Praetors/Patrons.
A network of female psychics recruited at a young age to serve the dictator - Seer Network/Fortunata Seers
A corrupt and thuggish police force - PPD/RIP.
A "survival of the fittest" doctrine amongst the playable section of the governing organization, with betrayal, double-crossing and brute force as acceptable ways of advancing through the ranks - Destined Ones/Powers Division.
A mad scientific genius operating semi-independently form his own personal power base - Neuron/Doctor Aeon.
A Failed super soldier experiment based on using the dictator's blood/DNA, with the results left to roam beneath the streets - Ghouls/Arachnoids.
Plus:
Intense and open rivalries between the various sub-groups of the ruling organization that frequently spill over into violence.
The widespread and frequent use of torture by the security forces.
A tightly controlled media, with any journalists who step out of line being targeted by the dictatorship.
Teachers who step out of line are also targeted by the dictatorship.
The extra evil of Praetoria is the durgged water supply and the thought police - those take it to 11 - while the Rogue Isles are still just a 10.
Basically, whether you spend your time shouting "Hail Lord Recluse!" or "Hail Emperor Cole!" just depends on how clean you like the streets of your fascist nightmare.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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There's no more crime on Primal Earth than there is in Praetoria - it's just that in Praetoria, the biggest crimnals are working for the authroities |
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Yeah, sure, because the heroes of primal earth are soooooo good at completely eliminating crime and keeping order on their world they can just rush on over and take care of that one as well. When I see less, freakshow, outcasts, skulls, council, 5th column, lost, and CoT on the streets of Paragon than I see actual citizens come talk to me about the great heroes of Primal Earth.
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The devs have even given us the neat little twist of replacing the mugging spawns with PPD harrasment spawns - only now, the citizens are in danger from the very people who would be protecting them in a normal society.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Yes, except for the fact that Tyrant is clearly the dimensional version of The Statesman, with his lieutenants versions of the Paragon City Heroes. So, really, Praetoria=Paragon.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Actually, it's more of a copy of the Rogue Isles, but with the evil dialed up a bit more:
A power-crazed Incarnate ruling with an iron first from his huge tower - Tyrant/Recluse. An inner circle of very powerful, very dangerous and very evil villains with their own agendas and plots - Praetors/Patrons. A network of female psychics recruited at a young age to serve the dictator - Seer Network/Fortunata Seers A corrupt and thuggish police force - PPD/RIP. A "survival of the fittest" doctrine amongst the playable section of the governing organization, with betrayal, double-crossing and brute force as acceptable ways of advancing through the ranks - Destined Ones/Powers Division. A mad scientific genius operating semi-independently form his own personal power base - Neuron/Doctor Aeon. A Failed super soldier experiment based on using the dictator's blood/DNA, with the results left to roam beneath the streets - Ghouls/Arachnoids. Plus: Intense and open rivalries between the various sub-groups of the ruling organization that frequently spill over into violence. The widespread and frequent use of torture by the security forces. A tightly controlled media, with any journalists who step out of line being targeted by the dictatorship. Teachers who step out of line are also targeted by the dictatorship. The extra evil of Praetoria is the durgged water supply and the thought police - those take it to 11 - while the Rogue Isles are still just a 10. Basically, whether you spend your time shouting "Hail Lord Recluse!" or "Hail Emperor Cole!" just depends on how clean you like the streets of your fascist nightmare. |
From the devs themselves:
http://goingrogue.na.cityofheroes.co...yrant-bio.html
So, yes, Cole did save humanity, stave off disaster and give people peace and prosperity. Granted, this was at a terrible personal cost of liberty to the people.
Regarding Calvin Scott:
http://goingrogue.na.cityofheroes.co...scott-bio.html
He does indeed spearhead the movement to restore that personal liberty. However, his motives are far from altruistic.
Also, removing the power structure involves removing people who know how to run the daily affairs; something that always results in, at best, a lower standard of living, and at worst, chaos. We had seen this most recently in Iraq. Indeed, the bad guy and his brutal regeme were removed, but come morning, there was suddenly no municipal service, no water, limited electricity and a crippled food distribution network. This has happened every time there was a forced regime change, and there would be no reason that it wouldn't happen in Praetoria.
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
This was the thing that most impressed me about GR, I have to say. I'm really having to think about my decisions, and I think it's fantastic the Loyalist/Resistance divide isn't as moronically binary as, say, a Bioware game. I've done a complete 180 on who I planned to work for originally, it's great.
Kudos, Paragon.
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I am struck by how much this sounds like the arguments AGAINST American independence: The "wild Indians running amok," chaos, famine and pestilence--- all because we left the sheltering arms of the beneficent King.|
Originally Posted by Zikar
I mean the Resistance will keep order about as well as a sieve holds water.
After they've killed thousands, destroyed Praetoria's infrastructure, police force and the like, what'll be left is a hull of a city. Barely enough food or water, no power (power stations are a target for blowing up after all) no police force, no hospitals (all blown up) no nothing really. There'll be riots, gangs will rule the streets. I expect that the Resistance will soon fall apart in a power struggle between it's two factions. Of course, the Syndicate will also be trying to gain more power during this time too. I expect Praetoria will be more like the Rogue Isles if the Resistance ever win, except even worse. |
I have no doubt that like college professors who alter the scenario should you successfully answer, the Devs will ultimately force us to blow up busloads of nuns and orphan children as the only option at some point so that "moral ambiguity" reigns supreme. That will be too bad.
At least this is just a game.
A couple of pertinent quotes then:
"Unhappy it is, though, to reflect that a brother's sword has been sheathed in a brother's breast and that the once-happy plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by slaves. Sad alternative! But can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?"
George Washington in a letter to a friend
"Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair; the event which is in the hands of God."
George Washington, Constitutional Convention, 1787
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
Why the bloody hell do people draw upon parallells when superpowers and the like are involved in CoX's morality.
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The one GR story line I've played to its conclusion was that of the Resistance Warden. It seemed fairly "Good" to me, with two exceptions: First was the occasional need to engage other Resistance fighters in battle. I avoided fighting Resistance in the streets, because it wasn't necessary - I chalked up their shooting at me to their not knowing I was with the Resistance myself - but there was once or twice when I had to take down a Resistance group to further my own goals. The end, I felt, justified the means, but that didn't make it "morally gray" to me, it meant that I was willing to be "bad", if only briefly and with some regret. |
Originally Posted by Mister Wolfram
However, I see the GR storyline as morally grey, which I imagine was the developers' intention. Tyrant very much reminds me of Ashur from The Pitt (Fallout 3), although not nearly as gritty. Both are trying to carve out a better life for their people in a dangerous world. Both use undeniably evil methods to reach that end. The Resistance to me seems like Werhner and Midea. They have moral right to their arguments, but the methods that they wish to use to implement that right are questionable at best, and monsterous at worst.
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That distinction was, I thought, summed up well by The Operative (Chiwetel Ejiofor) in the movie "Serenity":
Operative: "I'm sorry. If your quarry goes to ground, leave no ground to go to. You should have taken my offer. Or did you think none of this was your fault?"
Mal: "I don't murder children."
Operative: "I do. If I have to."
Mal: "Why? Do you even know why they sent you?"
Operative: "It's not my place to ask. I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin."
Mal: "So me and mine gotta lay down and die... so you can live in your better world?"
Operative: "I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there, any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster. What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done."
The Operative was a nutjob. To his credit, the suggestion was that he started to realize he was a nutjob towards to the end of the movie. The conversation between Mal and Shepherd Book was interesting too...
Mal: "It's of interest to me how much you seem to know about that world."
Book: "I wasn't born a shepherd, Mal."
Mal: "You have to tell me about that sometime."
Book: "No. I don't."
[spoiler in this paragraph]
The moment that most made me question my actions - and the Resistance, even the Wardens - was the destruction of the Enriche production facilities, because that left Praetoria without drinking water. That's catastrophic. My Contact didn't reveal that little detail until after I had detonated the bombs, and I was actually pretty angry with him. I thought it was a great piece of storytelling! My Contact, as I interpreted it, deliberately kept me in the dark because he knew I would balk.
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Originally Posted by Mister Wolfram
All in all, it makes for a lot of fun in Going Rogue.
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I also agree with Golden Girl's interpretation of Cole's Praetoria as being pure, undisguised, "comic book-y" Fascism. It seems about as subtle as a hammer to the head. I was thinking that my next Praetorian was going to be a dyed-in-the-wool, Loyalist PPD Investigator inspired by the KGB, the Stasi, and the Gestapo (and by the aforementioned Alliance Operative from "Serenity"). I'll be pretty alarmed by anyone - anyone, that is, who makes it clear that they're not roleplaying and not just messing with me - who reacts to that character in a positive manner.
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Because good and evil exists wherever humans exist, regardless of whether people can fly or not.
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Originally Posted by poptart_fairy
Why the bloody hell do people draw upon parallells when superpowers and the like are involved in CoX's morality.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Golden Girl, that is why I said in the early levels the loyalist responsibility line is "good". Sure, Cole is Tyrant and the place is run by an evil dictator but as a new wet behind the ears character, you don't know this. You slowly learn about it through the chain of contacts, and at the start of this chain of contacts you are doing the most heroic things of any other contact at the level - saving people, whereas if you do the resistance underground contacts you are doing purely evil things like blowing up hospitals and killing a man and his family (for no good reason).
Early on I say pure good = loyalist responsibility, and then you have the suspicious rebel, the evil violent anarchist, and the amoral glory hound. It changes later on along the contact line but this is where it starts. At the start of the game, the loyalist missions are either hapless good guy (you never do anything evil, you just have an evil boss and don't realize it) or at the worst, glory hound (the power loyalist line - which doesn't really do anything on the evil scale to equal some of the resitance missions).
Even coming to the end of the Imperial City contacts my characters doing resistance missions are doing far more evil than my characters doing loyalist missions. My resistance guy just tried to unleash a WMD on the innocent public. My gloryhound only took advantage to make himself look heroic to massage his ego.
When I first heard of GR and the loyalists and resistance, knowing the Tyrant stories from the main hero side game, I assumed that loyalists would be an evil oppressive regime (not unlike Arachnos) and that the resistance would be the good guys. But that is flipped on its head.
The true evil is the Resistance line of underground contacts and the true goldenboy good early on is the loyalist responsibility line of contacts. I love how its inverse to what I expected.