I like how good and evil blur in GR (mild spoiler)
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2010-08-22 21:01 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
I think banning discussions of the content of "Going Rogue" would be sorta silly.
|
Originally Posted by MTS
/me idly wonders if the forum's ban on political discussions extends to Praetorian politics, and if perhaps it should
 |
Quote:
Ha! You see what she did there? |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That would be tyrannical
 |
More spoiler talk:
Y'know, now that I'm thinking about it again, I can't remember if the bit about the drinking water was revealed before or after you blow up the Enriche plant. I'll have to look for that the next time I play that mission.
And I wonder if this forum can enable spoiler tags. That'd be useful.
Quote:
You're right, of course, I was deliberately troll-baiting. Was hoping to provoke something with the Responsibility = Hero line before someone called me out, but ah well.|
Originally Posted by Hundred_Nations
That's not what "fascist" means.
|
Probably closer to "short-sighted" but I couldn't come up with a good inflammatory term for it.
Watching people's reactions to GG making sweeping generalizations about the most morally ambiguous content in the game is amusing, even if it has gotten a little old after the first dozen threads.
Quote:
It's before - Dark Watcher tells you it'll take a few months before Vangurd can set up a water treatment facilty in Praetoria to supply clean, drug-free water to the people.
|
Originally Posted by Hundred_Nations
More spoiler talk:
Y'know, now that I'm thinking about it again, I can't remember if the bit about the drinking water was revealed before or after you blow up the Enriche plant. I'll have to look for that the next time I play that mission. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Continuing the Eneriche spoiler line..............|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's before - Dark Watcher tells you it'll take a few months before Vangurd can set up a water treatment facilty in Praetoria to supply clean, drug-free water to the people.
|
And given that people have survived with out absolutely pure water by modern standards...or Mississippi and Louisiana standards (sorry couldn't resist. I was stick of getting "oh your water was unsafe for consumption last week because of bacteria blooms" messages. It is a running joke among folks in Natchitoches, LA) there is not going to be some kind of mass die off of the population.
Quote:
Uhm, historically speaking no. We got around impure water through a variety of ways, one of the more prominent being alcohol -- which was much safer to drink than regular water. I don't think making the entire population of Praetoria constantly drunk would help much, though.|
Originally Posted by Divus
And given that people have survived with out absolutely pure water by modern standards...or Mississippi and Louisiana standards (sorry couldn't resist. I was stick of getting "oh your water was unsafe for consumption last week because of bacteria blooms" messages. It is a running joke among folks in Natchitoches, LA) there is not going to be some kind of mass die off of the population.
|
Incidentally, you can't just boil your water. Boiling isn't going to get rid of the human feces, and such. Boiling helps, but is hardly a solution.
Birth of a Villain Group (Arc ID 60573): Designed for villains level 1 - 10. Found a villainous organization on Mercy Island. Find a base, recruit some minions, gather valuable equipment, and destroy your enemies!
Quote:
In the 80's particularly Sugar Ditch Mississippi, there were areas of the deep south who essentially got their water from rivers and bayous because the communities could not afford to put in sewer and indoor plumbing. (Huzzah outhouses). |
Originally Posted by MaxXavier
Uhm, historically speaking no. We got around impure water through a variety of ways, one of the more prominent being alcohol -- which was much safer to drink than regular water. I don't think making the entire population of Praetoria constantly drunk would help much, though.
Incidentally, you can't just boil your water. Boiling isn't going to get rid of the human feces, and such. Boiling helps, but is hardly a solution. |
Hell, in Winterville, MS many communities use unfiltered well water. Yes, Praetoria will be in for a difficult time and Empaths, Pain Masters, and whatever healing classes will be working over time, particularly if withdrawal sets in. There are superhuman resources and super tech resources (if Neuron and Antimatter care). I am not saying that it would be easy. But I do believe that it is not an extinction level event.
But will the end result be BETTER than if you don't? Will the amount of people who get sick and die from it ultimately lead to a better end result? That's the ambiguity of it. Some will believe that, yes, it is. Others won't.
For me personally, I just think the Resistance would be shooting themselves in the foot. I don't believe there would be any wake-up against Cole, but instead against the Resistance. Indeed, I believe ending Enriche would ultimately cause the average citizen to become more fervently AGAINST the Resistance. They wouldn't see the oppression of the Seers nor the lack of freedom, especially those who grew up in Praetoria -- they would see the Resistance poisoning their water and trying to kill them. I know I would if I were an average Praetorian.
Given some people's statements in these threads, I might very well be right.
Birth of a Villain Group (Arc ID 60573): Designed for villains level 1 - 10. Found a villainous organization on Mercy Island. Find a base, recruit some minions, gather valuable equipment, and destroy your enemies!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MaxXavier
But will the end result be BETTER than if you don't? Will the amount of people who get sick and die from it ultimately lead to a better end result? That's the ambiguity of it. Some will believe that, yes, it is. Others won't.
For me personally, I just think the Resistance would be shooting themselves in the foot. I don't believe there would be any wake-up against Cole, but instead against the Resistance. Indeed, I believe ending Enriche would ultimately cause the average citizen to become more fervently AGAINST the Resistance. They wouldn't see the oppression of the Seers nor the lack of freedom, especially those who grew up in Praetoria -- they would see the Resistance poisoning their water and trying to kill them. I know I would if I were an average Praetorian. Given some people's statements in these threads, I might very well be right. |
Cole's probably funding the Resistance. It's just one big Cole-Plot. He's just one upping White and Duncan.
Quote:
So Cole is actually Nemesis?
|
Originally Posted by Divus
Cole's probably funding the Resistance. It's just one big Cole-Plot. He's just one upping White and Duncan.
|
Birth of a Villain Group (Arc ID 60573): Designed for villains level 1 - 10. Found a villainous organization on Mercy Island. Find a base, recruit some minions, gather valuable equipment, and destroy your enemies!
Quote:
Or perhaps it would be like that one guy from The Matrix. I forget the characters name, but the guy who wanted to be plugged back in. People might not want to know whats "actually going on", and live peacefully. Ignorance is bliss after all. |
Originally Posted by MaxXavier
But will the end result be BETTER than if you don't? Will the amount of people who get sick and die from it ultimately lead to a better end result? That's the ambiguity of it. Some will believe that, yes, it is. Others won't.
For me personally, I just think the Resistance would be shooting themselves in the foot. I don't believe there would be any wake-up against Cole, but instead against the Resistance. Indeed, I believe ending Enriche would ultimately cause the average citizen to become more fervently AGAINST the Resistance. They wouldn't see the oppression of the Seers nor the lack of freedom, especially those who grew up in Praetoria -- they would see the Resistance poisoning their water and trying to kill them. I know I would if I were an average Praetorian. Given some people's statements in these threads, I might very well be right. |
In roleplaying terms, the difference between City of Heroes and City of Villains is that of good versus evil. The conflict in Praetoria, by contrast, is Law versus Chaos.
Things like drugging the population into submission and policing thought are the concept of law (society's control over individuals) taken to the extreme, but is not inherently evil. That's not to say it isn't bad, but then again I rather think federally run healthcare is bad as well... but it doesn't make it evil, just too much law.
Quote:
No, those two things are inherently evil - there is no justicifation for reducing humans to a subhuman state the way Tyrant has done by denying them the free will and freedom of thought that are basic parts of human existence.
|
Originally Posted by Dementor_NA
Things like drugging the population into submission and policing thought are the concept of law (society's control over individuals) taken to the extreme, but is not inherently evil.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
I don't believe in the simplistic concepts of "Good" or "Evil". They are terms left over from the ages where we understood little about the world, the universe, and ourselves as a species. Today, they are used by those who cannot or will not understand any point of view other than their own -- anything that is against their own personal values is EVIL. It is in fact the exact same viewpoint that Tyrant has, and it makes the two of you exactly the same at the foundation. Both utterly convinced in their superior, correct opinions -- both willing to condone crimes against humanity to execute their "good" and "morally just" ideals. The only difference is in the amount of power possessed by the individuals and the specific ideals espoused.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
No, those two things are inherently evil - there is no justicifation for reducing humans to a subhuman state the way Tyrant has done by denying them the free will and freedom of thought that are basic parts of human existence.
|
Furthermore, neither freedom nor free will are particularly basic concepts for us. Freedom, for our species, has always meant "freedom for OUR tribe". We will fight to defend our freedom to oppress those who think differently! We will fight to defend our lands so that our god-kings can keep us laboring in the fields! Even my own mother thinks "freedom" means "you're free, stop being a child and shut up with your opinions that I don't like". Given that 1) the vast majority of human societies have been (and still are) authoritarian in nature and 2) even our freest of societies still sticks strict gender and social roles onto children from an early age, it is strange that so many call it a basic part of us.
Free will I don't even want to try to go into -- there are a lot of fundamental problems with it, philosophically and potentially even scientifically. I'm not well versed enough to go in-depth, but we are probably not as "free willed" as we like to believe. Uncomfortable thought for some, I'm sure.
To put it simply (and bring this post to a close), Golden Girl, you have an extremely whitewashed view of history and your own species. It's causing a great deal of cognitive dissonance. Personally, I'd recommend taking some good, unbiased non-western history and anthropology courses. They're really very enlightening.
And quite fun, too.EDIT:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dementor_NA
Evil requires intent to harm; Cole believes he is helping people by eliminating harmful thoughts from them. He rules over them because he really truly believes he's the best man for the job. He's just too willing to believe the government should control every aspect of life for the good of everyone; that isn't evil, that's just a philosophy you disagree with.
|
Birth of a Villain Group (Arc ID 60573): Designed for villains level 1 - 10. Found a villainous organization on Mercy Island. Find a base, recruit some minions, gather valuable equipment, and destroy your enemies!
Quote:
Evil requires intent to harm; Cole believes he is helping people by eliminating harmful thoughts from them. He rules over them because he really truly believes he's the best man for the job. He's just too willing to believe the government should control every aspect of life for the good of everyone; that isn't evil, that's just a philosophy you disagree with.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
No, those two things are inherently evil - there is no justicifation for reducing humans to a subhuman state the way Tyrant has done by denying them the free will and freedom of thought that are basic parts of human existence.
|
Quote:
Liberty is an unalienable right endowed by the Creator. This Truth is self-evident.|
Originally Posted by Dementor_NA
Evil requires intent to harm; Cole believes he is helping people by eliminating harmful thoughts from them. He rules over them because he really truly believes he's the best man for the job. He's just too willing to believe the government should control every aspect of life for the good of everyone; that isn't evil, that's just a philosophy you disagree with.
|
Evil is evil, regardless of intent. Motive as justification in the desire to help will only take you so far. Cole's beliefs, as you have described them, do not justify his actions. Taking away an unalienable right is simply evil, not just an interesting philosophy, and it will get a revolution started on you.
You can name any number of dictators that, it could be argued, earnestly and sincerely felt they were doing good by savagely suppressing Liberty. Indeed, many earnestly felt that the wholesale execution of certain "sub-humans" was the best chance for happiness and success for society as a whole. Further, by pronouncing them to be "non-persons" and thus "not human," they tried to get around those pesky self-evident Truths.
Fortunately for us, this is just a game. For a lot of folks, however, altruistic dictators parked them in early graves for the "betterment of society." We call those well-intentioned tyrants evil.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
Its funny, because both sides have good and evil people, but only see the evil in each other.
All Loyalists see the Resistance as Crusaders, willing to blow up hospitals, (and sacrifice the lives of everyone inside) and feed innocent civilions to the Ghouls.
Resistance see the Loyalists as Power hungry and ego-headed monsters who want to control and brainwash society, bending it to their will.
What do I want? Well this should come as no surprise, but I would love to see peace. ;-) The Responsible Loyalists should make peace and team up with the Wardens and get rid of the corruption within the Cole regime, arrest the murderers and terrorists in the Resistance, and start afresh.
Quote:
A few thoughts on this, in no particular order: First, I disagree that an act needs to have ill intent behind it to be labeled "evil." Second, I don't think it's merely a philosophy that's being labeled evil here, it's the deeds done in its interest. Third, I don't think that using the word evil to describe some acts means that we must then label everything we find disagreeable as evil; that's asking us to employ the black-and-white thinking that we criticized a page or two back.
|
Originally Posted by Dementor_NA
Evil requires intent to harm; Cole believes he is helping people by eliminating harmful thoughts from them. He rules over them because he really truly believes he's the best man for the job. He's just too willing to believe the government should control every aspect of life for the good of everyone; that isn't evil, that's just a philosophy you disagree with.
|
Quote:
I agree.|
Originally Posted by Hundred_Nations
A few thoughts on this, in no particular order: First, I disagree that an act needs to have ill intent behind it to be labeled "evil." Second, I don't think it's merely a philosophy that's being labeled evil here, it's the deeds done in its interest. Third, I don't think that using the word evil to describe some acts means that we must then label everything we find disagreeable as evil; that's asking us to employ the black-and-white thinking that we criticized a page or two back.
|
But I do find it amusing that a poster can say Cole and the Loyalists are irredeemably evil because no good can come from them due to their atrocities yet give the Resistance atrocities a pass.
"Our mass murder is good because it frees people to make choices (assuming any of them survive to get to make them)."
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
Agree 100%.|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
I agree.
But I do find it amusing that a poster can say Cole and the Loyalists are irredeemably evil because no good can come from them due to their atrocities yet give the Resistance atrocities a pass. "Our mass murder is good because it frees people to make choices (assuming any of them survive to get to make them)." |
People are very quick to lump all Loyalists as Power hungry egomaniacs, and very quick to sideline and ignore the really EVIL things the Resistance do. "Oh its okay, that is just the Crusaders, we don't really like them much either." Right...
The way I see it, while the civilians may be blind to what Cole really is, most of the players seem very blind to everything that the Resistance entails.
Quote:
I would just add this note. The notion that "Not every choice can be divided into Black and White" does not prove the notion that "No choice can be divided into Black and White."
|
Originally Posted by Hundred_Nations
A few thoughts on this, in no particular order: First, I disagree that an act needs to have ill intent behind it to be labeled "evil." Second, I don't think it's merely a philosophy that's being labeled evil here, it's the deeds done in its interest. Third, I don't think that using the word evil to describe some acts means that we must then label everything we find disagreeable as evil; that's asking us to employ the black-and-white thinking that we criticized a page or two back.
|
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
Quote:
I don't agree with this, but not absolutely because the game minimizes the instances where Wardens actively work against Crusaders, but there is an Imperial City arc where the PC expressly works to thwart the Crusaders. |
Originally Posted by Peacemoon
Its funny, because both sides have good and evil people, but only see the evil in each other.
|
However, In that like light, the Crusaders are also big tools. The Wardens don't get mixed up in the underworld crap that the Crusaders, with their dummo-speak seem to blunder into. The whole Cleo thing didn't bother me because Reese tried to kill me via resistance. It only just begins there because multiple Loyalists contacts seem to be able to just call in Resistance strikes and those Crusaders do it. Tra la la, "Let's just walk into this trap with the voracious fame-hungry Powers Division Monster."
Seriously, I makes me doubt that the Resistance is actually separate from the Praetorian government. If anything they behave like a "kidney" necessary for survival by siphoning "waste" from the body of society. Sure it flares up, but it would be worse if the waste was not pulled out, society would have to rely on the PPD performing Dialysis which would be disruptive to society.
Great, now I think that Cole is running the resistance from the shadows.
Quote:
It's just GG generates a lot of Anti-Resistance feeling because of her unyielding stance and tendency to post alot. |
Originally Posted by Peacemoon
Agree 100%.
People are very quick to lump all Loyalists as Power hungry egomaniacs, and very quick to sideline and ignore the really EVIL things the Resistance do. "Oh its okay, that is just the Crusaders, we don't really like them much either." Right... The way I see it, while the civilians may be blind to what Cole really is, most of the players seem very blind to everything that the Resistance entails. |
Actually it seems that the playerbase is acutely aware of what the Resistance does and less aware of what the Loyalists do on a daily, since more often than not, you have to play find out all of the dirt. (Well that and if GG posts the litany, people are more likely to say "So what, we're safe. Screw those guys.")
On the surface, the player base is told, "Cole bad." We start to play and its, "Wow preeeeety, Cole not so bad. OMFG Resistance nutz." And in Nova that is the truth unless you literally run around underground and start badge hunting.
Based on these threads I tend to think most players who post are Loyalists at heart and float towards stability. The Resistance is scary, and outside of Nova, the contacts are pissed and not mere thrill seekers and in game, we get the full brunt of the propaganda and the reality.
Uni-track play also influences it a bit. In the whole "make more alts" culture of Cox, It takes multiple runs to get the whole picture. It is never visible to an individual unless they're going to drop out of the progression and snoop around before they outlevel the content. Hell event then, a single non moral choice conversation branch can cast a whole new light on a mission. I found that out during a chat with Devore, who has amped my fear of Mother Mayhem just a bit more.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork