Praetoria - A hard fight.
By
Ashen_EU,
Posted on: 2010-08-18 11:15 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Here's a delightful little part of a screencap from a mission, the finale of Seer... 1358(?)'s arc.
This is the group that killed me. Not seen, the boss of the mission I had defeated by the skin of my teeth (Having already defeated me twice before):
1 Elite Boss (Seer 0001)
3 Even Con Seers
1 T.E.S.T Ranger Summon
And then the waves called on me.
Kinetic Melee/Willpower Scrapper, level 12. No Rise to the Challenge, No Burst, no Heightened Senses available.
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*Grits Teeth*...Ouch
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Originally Posted by Zortel
Here's a delightful little part of a screencap from a mission, the finale of Seer... 1358(?)'s arc.
This is the group that killed me. Not seen, the boss of the mission I had defeated by the skin of my teeth (Having already defeated me twice before): 1 Elite Boss (Seer 0001) 3 Even Con Seers 1 T.E.S.T Ranger Summon And then the waves called on me. Kinetic Melee/Willpower Scrapper, level 12. No Rise to the Challenge, No Burst, no Heightened Senses available. |
- Im Not Talking Fast, You're Just Listening Slow.
- To Each His Own
Most of the stuff that has caused me difficulty in some missions just seem to be overlapping ambush spawns or the ambush spawning 5 feet away while I'm fighting something else. Ambushes are fun and all but they went way overboard when using them I've noticed.
I've been soloing my controller so far, and it hasn't seemed too bad...but I'll put that squarely down to having a confuse in my primary. I definitely would have been pancaked several times by now, had I not been able to purloin the services of a nearby Lieutenant.
Oddly enough, I don't have too many complaints about the ghouls or destroyers, but mobs of seers can get infuriating; nothing sucks worse than getting chain-kb'd by billions of shockwaves and being a control AT, -rech is a real killer.
Dunno I have seen some challenges, and some overlap from mobs, but running my Kin/Nin stalker, I have more fun there than on either side. I love the rush you get, almost like on the edge of your seat as you think you might drop or not.
After plowing through a mass groups of Police, and some ambushes that jumped in, I actually burned inspirations. Although it did not make me feel screwed like fighting CoT on redside.
I find it a challenge, but still very doable, I think a lot of new people will do fine with Prae. The difficulty is consistent throughout the mobs, not uneven like we have with other peeps. Of course this is my opinion on this, people can have their ways, but I am more in line with others in this thread and find it not bad at all.
Well pretty much level 10 with my elec/elec dom and no problems to speak of.
I've come across some 4 man spawns(or so it seemed) but I handled them pretty well. Only used inspirations for a few end fights and one of them I used 2 lucks needlessly.
I've fought everything but Seers. So I don't know if that's where the problems are. But so far...so good.
If there are specific problems with certain missions, then that's one thing...but to say that it is overall too hard for new players is probably not entirely accurate. At least that's been my experience so far.
...This is just my take: I have a level 14 Tanker in Praetoria at the moment.
I am all about the most expeditious route from A to B. Almost always I will beeline toward my goal. Its just how I am.
The problem for me is that while Praetoria is visually beautiful [the three fusion reactors in Neutropolis are just some of the loveliest things in this game, seriously.... just so evilly awesome], the difficulty posed by the missions means that leveling happens much more slowly for me there.
I don't find being dogpiled by swarms of ambushes fun. One or two, i can forgive. And the bosses...! Just bosses *everywhere*. As a level 10 I think one can carry eight inspirations? Is it eight? Or ten?....? It would take me more than 8-10 insps. to deal with each group of NPCs. Some of these mobs can all but STOP your recharge, or they take all your Endurance. How much end does your level 14 Tank have...? I can tell you mine don't have much! And then that little you do have gets sapped, and your toggles drop. Oh, so much fun.
As such, I will still be starting most of my new people in Paragon or the Isles. Its just easier for me to level there. Less frustrating.
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Mobs in Praetoria aggro extremely easily. You might try to pull and get just the one, but you are far more likely to get the entire spawn. I have seen it happen repeatedly.
| Regarding the issue of the screenshot above, it looks like the player engaged all the mobs, instead of just pulling one of them. |
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Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
Lack of end mitigation is the big kicker for me. With Stamina not being available until level 20, the END of Praetorian content, all there is, is insps and endrec enhancements; which at TO and DO levels, suck.
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My experience is markedly different to yours. I'm not experiencing any undue End difficulties on a variety of toons in Prey
It's not a problem.
Thelonious Monk
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None for me either. I'll continue to give ongoing reports as I level.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
My experience is markedly different to yours. I'm not experiencing any undue End difficulties on a variety of toons in Prey
It's not a problem. |
I have to say that considering that I'm playing one of the squishiest ATs in the game, and doing OK so far, I'm curious as to how fast the difficulty ramps up to experience things like folks here are talking about. It's got to be a significant spike.
Also...which mob group saps end? I'd like to be prepared.
Ok...no more issues with my dominator so far.
My stalked, on the other hand, had an interesting time with the Cleopatra storyline. (Spoilers Ahead!)
The morality missions where she sets you up to get chomped by the Resistance was frustrating due to ambushes. Now it's not that I disliked the ambushes exactly, its that playing a stalker and having mobs know where you are and able to shoot you even when hid kind of puts the AT at a disadvantage that other ATs would not have been facing.
If I can't hide, I can't use my assassin strike or get criticals when I attack from a hidden state.
The other odd thing was that even with ninja reflexes, I was hit by their melee attacks far too often. Maybe my luck is lousy(and I admit that it is), but their accuracy has got to be darn good for a +0 minion to hit almost every time when I have 15% Melee defense.
Anyway, apart from that, it wasn't a 'terrible' experience. If I was playing my dom or blaster I think I'd still have come out alright. Even if only because I paid attention to the mission text and took along a full inspiration tray expecting the worst.
At this point I'm still inclined to say that it's still not so bad as to scare off new players.
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Bolded for emphasis and yes I agree with the general principle you make. If anything this has shown me how people have forgotten how to play skillfully, and blaming the game not themselves for failure. If 90% of people were having huge difficulties their might be some merit in the complaint, but at least to me it seems like most people are finding the game more difficult, but uping their game and coping.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
On topic, I like that it's a bit tougher. I feel that a lot of veterans have gotten--how to delicately put this?--mamby pamby.
No good game is supposed to be a cakewalk. No one promised that you'll never get defeated. I think that a lot of people have gotten so used to waltzing through every mission without ever getting defeated (unless deliberately pursuing a badge) that when they do get defeated, they assume that it's some kind of design flaw with the game. |
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Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
I helped out a newbie with a mission involving killing Maxine under 5 mins (before reinforcements showed up). That mission involved finding a NPC in the middle of a Praetorian lab map (chock full of Syndicate) and then facing off against a Lt accompanied by a Syndicate. The newbie was extremely frustrated and her level 8 dom could not get past the first large room before dying. By the time, I joined her, reinforcements had of course already arrived.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
4 deaths on one spawn is a design flaw, unless we've returned to Jack Emmert's theory of "one hero/villain/Praetorian = 3 +0 minions". I could handle dying once per mission. Hell, twice even. But not four times before I make it through the second room, not at level 10.
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I'm sorry DarkGob but why do you think success should be guarenteed? Without more information in your example it is difficult to reach any conclusion other then you need to improve your game. The enemies are slightly more difficult I will admit, but if you are dying 4 times in the first room of a mission, just by fighting normal spawns and without ambushes, then you are doing something wrong. No matter what your AT or power combo is.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Most of the stuff that has caused me difficulty in some missions just seem to be overlapping ambush spawns or the ambush spawning 5 feet away while I'm fighting something else. Ambushes are fun and all but they went way overboard when using them I've noticed.
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This is how I feel too. I sorta know why they didn't add the Diff Modifier contacts from the off, because people would slap it up to +2 without thinking and people would REALLY be complaining but my Elec Domi wishes I could knock the diff down by one and not be getting my face clawed off by 4 +1 Ghouls at level 8.|
Originally Posted by Zortel
I enjoy Praetoria, I mostly enjoy soloing, and I love the content and choices. The stated points were just things that rankled me a little, or were more noticeable on my other characters (Got 8 in Praetoria so far at various levels).
There's a fine line between challenge though ("THE GHOULS ARE COMING" AAAAAH! *Desperate Fight*) and boring. (*waits around for HP/End/Rest to recharge*) Lastly, I also feel that the lack of NPCs to alter difficulty enhances the issues. With difficulty modification, those on less solo capable AT's have their option to have things at an easier pace, and those on the more capable could up theirs if they liked the risk. |
Like I've already said I feel the devs developed level 20 enemies and scaled them down but left their powers and abilities mostly intact.
To counteract I rolled a Fire/Dark corrupter (damn you Silas for sowing that seed in my head) and have been clearing up since. She welcomes those continued ambushes with open arms. Except the ones that just pop into existence around you. That's just silly looking (sorta handy though if Tar Patch is still hanging about, idiots).
Haven't found End to be an issue on any characters though, not dying horrifically solo has been my chief issue for the fledgling Elec Domi and even my Broadsword/Fire scrapper (both level 8 or 9).
I've noticed most teams are very offensively based as well at the mo, there is a noticable lack of support characters being rolled, so on teams I think people are getting in over their heads and those coming from a Hero PoV aren't quite used to not being able to fend for themselves (another reason my Fire/Dark is getting on so well).
At level 16 on my KM/SD scrapper I'm finding End issues. Keeping three SD toggles up along with Combat Jump just will not work. But with judicial use of AAO and making sure that I have 4 blues in my insp tray, it's doable. Otherwise I'm enjoying the difficulty. But I could see how it would really annoy a stalker.
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I played a KM/SR stalker, an EB and 15-20 ambushers not much fun solo.|
Originally Posted by Scooby_Dont
At level 16 on my KM/SD scrapper I'm finding End issues. Keeping three SD toggles up along with Combat Jump just will not work. But with judicial use of AAO and making sure that I have 4 blues in my insp tray, it's doable. Otherwise I'm enjoying the difficulty. But I could see how it would really annoy a stalker.
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There was one encounter where I had to run up, assassinate something (from the mob of 20) and then run out the mish door, rinse repeat.
Fortunately dying once in most cases resets the aggro so you can then mop up.
Still, I'm not sure this is how the game is supposed to work.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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... y'know, browsing through the thread, I see quotes like this and think - "Ever played other MMOs?" Because I'm thinking of the mobs (and playstyle) I had to deal with in, say, Aion (where missions would have you kill multiple Elites *just to get to an objective* with some frequency, and you're rarely fighting more than 1-2 mobs at a time because you won't survive more) and, quite frankly, think any new player coming from those is still going to find this easy by comparison. |
Originally Posted by Rowdy
I'll admit, the difficulty in praetoria is definately what I'm not used to in the lower lvls. My only concern is, if this is supposed to attract new players, why on earth would they make so many tough enemies. I wouldn't be surprised if they manage to scare away any new people with these mobs.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
This is how I feel too. I sorta know why they didn't add the Diff Modifier contacts from the off, because people would slap it up to +2 without thinking and people would REALLY be complaining but my Elec Domi wishes I could knock the diff down by one and not be getting my face clawed off by 4 +1 Ghouls at level 8.
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Running an elec/elec dom myself. Do you not have your AOE immob? Cycle your controls. You're a dominator. Even if you just have the ST hold and immob, that's half the mob taken care of well before they're in range, even with default recharge. Separate them from the others. And if they're strung out - the AOE heal does absolutely nothing but look pretty.
My wp/km tanker has made it (solo and team) to level 12 without being defeated.
My km/wp scrapper (solo) was well acquainted with the Agony of Defeat by level 5.
My archery/TA corrupter (solo) made it to level 6 before the first defeat, and from there to level 14 it's been a Festival of Defeats. In the TO levels she didn't have enough damage output, damage mitigation, or endurance to deal with most of what was thrown at her. DOs helped with damage output, but even with Endurance Reductions slotted... ugh.
With enough of the right inspirations on hand, she's as golden as, well, GG. Without them, though, it's a visit to Flatland.
(Which, incidentally, is an old QQ of mine: is this a City of Heroes/Villains... or a City of Inspirations? Then again, history teaches us that using a Break Free at just the right moment *can* make all the difference in the world.)
Playing a Kinetic melee/Energy armour brute and so far there have only been a couple of missions that really annoyed me.
The only time I got into a fullblown NERDRAGE!!! was on a mission with seers where two groups of 3 minions were aggro-linked. I died, in total, 7 times taking the groups down and, on at least 2 occasions, spent the entire fight knocked down.
Other than that and one annoying infinite ambush mission that meant that for the entire mission I couldn't heal or recover endurance without insps I'm enjoying the new challenge.
Friends are just enemies that haven't betrayed you yet.
I will say that some of mobs could do with being toned down a tad.
The Destroyer bosses one-shot any of the first tier MM minions with footstomp...yeah that needs to be toned down a tad. Over all the Destroyer bosses are a massive pain, they're incredibly hard to mez, have high damage both single target and AoE. Compared to other bosses of the same level range they completely outclass them.
And yes agreed, there needs to be difficulty slider NPCs in Praetoria. What may be fine and soloable for a brute is not going to be so good for say a Controller.
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Pretty much exactly my opinion (sorry for wasting screenspace, I should have put this in my previous post).|
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
I will say that some of mobs could do with being toned down a tad.
The Destroyer bosses one-shot any of the first tier MM minions with footstomp...yeah that needs to be toned down a tad. Over all the Destroyer bosses are a massive pain, they're incredibly hard to mez, have high damage both single target and AoE. Compared to other bosses of the same level range they completely outclass them. And yes agreed, there needs to be difficulty slider NPCs in Praetoria. What may be fine and soloable for a brute is not going to be so good for say a Controller. |
I originally started GR with an eye to trying numerous different classes, unfortunately at this point having played one of the easiest classes to solo with I look at numerous missions I've played and failed to see how they would be fun with other archetypes.
Though with that in mind I'm pretty much willing to admit I'm poor at this game, so feel free to prove me wrong.
Friends are just enemies that haven't betrayed you yet.
I've played in Praetoria quite a bit now on several different characters and I've come to the conclusion that, in Praetoria, one of our common game play assumptions is wrong, "clearing the map on the way to your objective is a good thing."
In a lot of the Praetorian missions clearing your way to the objective is just plain stupid, you weaken your resources (inspirations, HP, End) and give more time for ambushes to find you and gang up on you. Race through the map, don't attack anything, find your objective and get the H**L out. The 5 minute timer on one Praetorian/Arachnos mission made me rethink my approach to the missions in Praetoria.
If you don't attack any MOBs in a spawn as you run by them, they'll take a potshot or two, but they won't follow more than a few feet (excluding ambushes). I take advantage of that and just get to the objective. If the objective is a boss, take him out quick, if ambushes spawn while you are fighting that boss, ignore them and concentrate on that boss and finish the mission.
The horrible ambush while fighting Seer 0001? If you ignore it and push through and drop her the mission ends. You don't need to defeat the rest of her spawn or the ambush, just hit that little blue button, you did your job.
Those missions through Ghoul infested sewers to meet someone or find something? Most of them you can just race through till you find your objective, you don't have to fight the ghouls (the mission where you have to rescue some PPD is an exception, you HAVE to clear to the PPD if you want to lead them out alive).
Meeting Steve Sheridan? Let the ghoul ambushes follow you to Steve and let Longbow deal with them, they're not your problem.
Could the Devs have designed these missions with this strategy in mind? I wonder if one of the factors in the Devs decision to make Sprint faster was to make avoiding the MOBs in the Praetorian missions easier.
Just do all your missions in Praetoria like you're doing a speed run, I'm finding that it makes life a lot easier. It cuts down on the frustration and the deaths. Besides, I'm a busy person, I have things to do, I don't have time to deal with all those clueless minions, and thankfully, I don't have to.
"I used to make diddly squat, but I've been with the company for 16 years and have had plenty of great raises. Now I just make squat" -- Me
Pediatric brain tumors are the #1 cause of cancer related deaths in children.
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And just now went into a mission, fought off five or six enemies, and then...|
Originally Posted by Flarstux
My wp/km tanker has made it (solo and team) to level 12 without being defeated.
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High Explosives HITS you! Explosive Trap power had a 82.50% chance to hit and rolled a 15.10.
You take 192.27 points of Lethal damage from a Explosive Trap.
You take 195.81 points of Fire damage from a Explosive Trap.
Good night.
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Destroyers in general are overpowered for that level! My lv. 12 Earth/Earth dominator has a Destroy that he hates at every critter tier? Minion? Blast Masters, damn burn patches. At least I can throw one of them inside a big rock. Lieutenant? Hombres. Bastards have such high mez resists that you can't hold them for any significant time without Domination or Power Boost. Bosses? Well, we've all express our rage with the Big Dogs. Foot Stomp, Integration (so my dom is helpless in the "making them helpless" category), other hard hitting SS moves, two versions of Hurl to alternate. I have to drop Quicksand and kite them just to have a chance.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
I will say that some of mobs could do with being toned down a tad.
The Destroyer bosses one-shot any of the first tier MM minions with footstomp...yeah that needs to be toned down a tad. Over all the Destroyer bosses are a massive pain, they're incredibly hard to mez, have high damage both single target and AoE. Compared to other bosses of the same level range they completely outclass them. And yes agreed, there needs to be difficulty slider NPCs in Praetoria. What may be fine and soloable for a brute is not going to be so good for say a Controller. |
There is already plenty of easier content. Variety is spice, and it's good to see some new challenging content.
Also, when the new players get out of Praetoria at 20, they are going to feel VERY strong compared to the normal content.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
I do find Praetoria harder than CoH, and a bit more the Cov... I wonder if some of the ambush timers are bad across the game though.
Me and the missus just started up our first Arachnos characters and hit Mongooses Bank mission... after clearing the vault room and prying open the vault... we had 1 normal abmush while getting the door opened, then a simulataneous "pop up" of a the remaining ambush mobs all at once in the vault room right as we got the money clicked.
An exciting time for sure!... we each clicked pretty much our whole tray... and we did beat them
At the sight of all of them spawning... at least 9 , maybe 15 ... I thought,"Wow! Just like some of the reports from Praetoria"
The final line of a post by Sweet_Sarah on Liberty
"Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes."
Imo, if more than just a few people are saying that the difficulty has unfair spikes, than I think it's something the devs should look into. Lord knows they wont keep any new players with Praetoria being so frustrating at times.
- Im Not Talking Fast, You're Just Listening Slow.
- To Each His Own