Quote:
Given the state of most 90s-style-anti-hero types running around Paragon City (see most of the Scrappers out there for details) Thugs will fit in just fine.|
Originally Posted by ChrisMoses
I just kind of realized this...
There is nothing like the Mastermind class in the City of Heroes game proper. Every other class has its similar heroic counterpart, but not the Mastermind. Now that this is the first time that the MM will be going through typical Hero missions, task forces, etc with Going Rogue, what are the problems that have already arisen and been addressed? Any at all? Also, thematically, how does a heroic Mastermind work? Demons? No way. Well, maybe. Some sort of Dr. Strange-type summoner. Robots? Maybe. Thugs? No way. Unless you're organizing a work-program for youths seeking redemption. Mercernaries? Sure. Agent of SHIELD and such. Ninjas? Hmmm. I guess not. Daredevil isn't handling it too well as the leader of the HAND right now. Thoughts? |
Why are Bots just "maybe"? I don't understand.
Mercs just pay them they will follow, Bots can be reprogrammed, for the others I guess you'll just have to ask them nicely.
Demons - You're a OUTCAST Demon GUY and the OTHER demons are your BROS trying to ESCAPE with YOU. You and your band of BROS are ALWAYS ostracized WHERE EVER you GO, but YOU KEEP up the GOOD FIGHT, because YOU"RE the HERO that this CITY deserves.
Robots - Works for obvious reasons (eg. ironman)
Thugs- You're a REFORMED THUG (see Marv from SIN CITY) that FIGHTS against the OPPRESSORS trying to FORCE THEIR authoritarian VIEWS on you and your CULTURE. YOU FIGHT not only to SURVIVE but also MAKE SURE no other powerless LOWER CLASS people SUFFERS like you DID.
Mercernaries -Works for obvious reasons
Ninjas - Works for obvious reason (eg. Naruto)
Zombies - You like brains
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChrisMoses
I just kind of realized this...
There is nothing like the Mastermind class in the City of Heroes game proper. Every other class has its similar heroic counterpart, but not the Mastermind. Now that this is the first time that the MM will be going through typical Hero missions, task forces, etc with Going Rogue, what are the problems that have already arisen and been addressed? Any at all? Also, thematically, how does a heroic Mastermind work? Demons? No way. Well, maybe. Some sort of Dr. Strange-type summoner. Robots? Maybe. Thugs? No way. Unless you're organizing a work-program for youths seeking redemption. Mercernaries? Sure. Agent of SHIELD and such. Ninjas? Hmmm. I guess not. Daredevil isn't handling it too well as the leader of the HAND right now. Thoughts? |
Thematically, it works if you view the MM more as a leader of men (or whatever) than as a master commanding his minions.
You've already pointed out the Mercs as easily viable, who work just fine as operating under a military commander. Thugs can easily be seen as the street-gang gone legit; working with a leader (hero) who wants to clean up the streets. It does two things: it gets people doing positive things with their lives, and it cuts into the pool of thugs tapped into by the Skulls, Hellions, etc. A ninja leader may be using his ninja as his own squad of "Batmen". Robots are easy to figure: they're nothing more than another weapon a hero might use, like a sword or dual pistols. Demons are the only one that takes a bit more work, since demons are usually (but not always!) portrayed as Evil; but one can imagine that a hero might see using them prevents evil sorcerers (or other origins, for that matter) from using them in their schemes. Could be that his will is stronger than those of the demons; or perhaps they're simply shapes he's created for a mystic force under his control. I can think of a few other ways to spin it.
The big key here for most of these is the nature of the hero-the AT lends itself to the idea of a charismatic man or woman as a leader who will have people who *want* to follow him/her. This is something that can apply to any spoke in the morality wheel, as the "pets" could be loyal to a leader whether he descends into the depths of villainy or chooses to lead them against the horde of evil that seems to infest Paragon City.
Afraid I can't speak for the gameplay questions, but I would imagine that this wouldn't be a major issue; after all, they've already worked with heroes in the RWZ and in Cimerora. And mechanics-wise, the redside missions aren't really all that different from the blueside ones.
Just my random thoughts.
Edit: Completely missed zombies, but not too hard to work them around too; I can see a concept of the zombies being chained to unlife for failing in some great task, and they've chosen to follow the hero in hopes of redeeming themselves-a perfect theme for Going Rogue.
I knew I was missing one.
Robots were originally listed as a "maybe" just because I couldn't think of a heroic comics-counterpart. Maybe Fixer?
Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.
If I ever reroll Timi (an old WoW warlock toon), I might well convert her to a DS "hero", simply because she was always played that way. Rather. She was always played as overtly over-the-top evil in such a harmless way that people consistently treated her as though she were actually nice, and patted her on the head a lot.
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Thematically, how can throwing a fireball at a purse snatcher be heroic?|
Originally Posted by ChrisMoses
Also, thematically, how does a heroic Mastermind work?
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It's a game.
Really though?
Thugs: The gang is takin' back the streets, yo!
Bots: They do as their told.
Mercs: Hey, good guys pay for wetwork too.
Zombies: So necromancy is frowned upon. Doesn't make it a less legitimate tactic for fighting crime. Diablo had a necromancer saving the world.
Demons: See above. Demons can be enslaved by a good master and forced to do heroic works.
Ninjas: See above above. Ninjas are good at killing things. Make them kill bad guys and suddenly they become good guys.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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To answer your question I'll give you the short form of my favorite MM's bio:|
Originally Posted by ChrisMoses
I just kind of realized this...
Also, thematically, how does a heroic Mastermind work? Demons? No way. Well, maybe. Some sort of Dr. Strange-type summoner. Robots? Maybe. Thugs? No way. Unless you're organizing a work-program for youths seeking redemption. Mercernaries? Sure. Agent of SHIELD and such. Ninjas? Hmmm. I guess not. Daredevil isn't handling it too well as the leader of the HAND right now. Thoughts? |
He was an expert in robotics that (unknown to him) was one of the millions of Mu descendants in the world today. The Circle of Thorns kidnapped him since they could detect the Mu power in his blood. They imprisoned him, along with an Arachnos Mu Mystic they had also captured.
Arachnos came calling to get back their mystic. All the magic being flung around in the fight awoke the dormant power of the Mu in my MM and gave him the power to control "the spirits of the air" (Storm Summoning). He used these powers to escape.
Which part of that story makes him evil, irredeemable, not allowed to do good works? That's right, not one bit. Which is why I'm going to have a blast finally getting him over to the hero side. He's not evil, never has been. I've just been forced to play him in the Rogue Isles up until now.
MM's are like any other AT. It just takes some imagination to place them in the framework of the blue side. Oh, and as for the OP's comments about Demon Summoning not being heroic at all? I have one word: Desdemona.
My first level 50: a necromancy / dark miasma MM
Honestly officer, these walking corpses aren't evil! They're going to protect that orphanage over at 5th and 88th, and afterwards we're all inviting them over for cookies and story time!
Uh huh... Hey, that one looks like my recently deceased colleague, Sergeant Bill!
Um... er... you see, he's such a good public servant he's determined to stay in this world and help protect it!
...
You know now that you mentioned it, I'm seriously considering taking this necromancer over to blue side, because atlas park needs more zombies.
Mercs
Robots
Ninjas
Thugs is a little tougher, but if alternate henchmen ever come about with Power Customization I think a team of cowboys would be a "good" option. And as mentioned, it could be a "Hell's Angels" type "neighborhood watch taking back the streets" thing.
Zombies and Demons are really the only iffy choices, and as I said in another thread, the Necromancer doesn't have to reanimate his Zombies against their will, he may be a zombie like they are, and they all have found themselves brought back to "unlife" for some reason. They could be a family or a group of soldiers, who now have to atone for some evil they did in the past.
And again, if the Necromancer or Demon Summoner has switched sides and is trying to redeem himself, he may be forcing his dark powers to be used for good instead of evil. After all, as it currently stands you can't start an MM as a hero anyway. You HAVE to be trying to redeem yourself to be a heroic MM. Although in my case, I have a good MM who had gone undercover as an evil Ninja Master, and has now returned to her "true" side.
Quote:
Technically, you can start as a Praetorian mastermind who goes heroic, and never be a villain.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
After all, as it currently stands you can't start an MM as a hero anyway. You HAVE to be trying to redeem yourself to be a heroic MM. Although in my case, I have a good MM who had gone undercover as an evil Ninja Master, and has now returned to her "true" side.
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While I'm here, I'd like to add one more thought. Powers are not inherently good or evil. The user is what decides that.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Heroic Demon Summoning masterminds use demons from Praetorian Hell. Who save mortals from Praetorian angels, which tempt people into sin so their souls can be dragged up into Praetorian Heaven and be tormented forever with really bad harp music.
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
Quote:
Technically, yes, but I was intentionally not speaking of that when I said "heroic". Probably I should have used the capital "Heroic". |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Technically, you can start as a Praetorian mastermind who goes heroic, and never be a villain.
|
While it is possible to be heroic in Praetoria, I personally feel the environment itself precludes the labels that would cause you to not consider Zombies and Demons to be all that "heroic". The environment itself is grey enough that you could be using such demonic powers to "do good" as a matter of course.
Plus, what Obscure Blade said was awesome.
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Indeed. How many comic book examples of identical powers were one is good and one evil do we need to bring up to make this point?|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Technically, you can start as a Praetorian mastermind who goes heroic, and never be a villain.
While I'm here, I'd like to add one more thought. Powers are not inherently good or evil. The user is what decides that. |
Lightning Lad - Lightning Lord
Flash - Professor Zoom
Captain Marvel (Shazam) - Black Adam
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Technically, yes, but I was intentionally not speaking of that when I said "heroic". Probably I should have used the capital "Heroic".
While it is possible to be heroic in Praetoria, I personally feel the environment itself precludes the labels that would cause you to not consider Zombies and Demons all that "heroic". The environment itself is grey enough that you could be using such demonic powers to "do good" as a matter of course. Plus, what Obscure Blade said was awesome. |
Infernal might disagree with you about demon summoning.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Man, gave me chills thinking what evil schemes little baby, blonde haired, blue eyed Praetorian Jesus must be upto (Taladega Nights ftw).
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Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Heroic Demon Summoning masterminds use demons from Praetorian Hell. Who save mortals from Praetorian angels, which tempt people into sin so their souls can be dragged up into Praetorian Heaven and be tormented forever with really bad harp music.
|
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
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Well, first of all Infernal isn't exactly a Hero. He was turned to the side of good by Numina, but he was at best neutral when he started. His Praetorian counterpart fell quickly enough into villainy and binding demons just for the sake of power. |
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Infernal might disagree with you about demon summoning.
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Second, the universe in which Infernal comes from is, in a way, similar to Praetoria. It is apparently overrun with demons, to an extent where demon binding is not considered an evil, but necessary for the dimension's survival. Presumably binding is not considered a good thing, but it's part of their culture and society. It's not undertaken lightly, and Infernal himself seems to reveal in his dialog that he seeks the balance, and not purely good or evil.
I do conceed the point though. A universe where demon binding is considered a defense against an invasion by demons could be used in a bio for a "good" Demon Summoner.
I would just like to say that all you people are making the many demonic citizens out there in our fair country cry. Demons are people too! They have the right to not be bullied by you antidemonists! See that "hideous abomination" which was just summoned forth from the abyss? Her name is Hilda and she has three demonlings at home, and she's here fighting in our dimension to try and change the opinions of people like YOU. She just wants to see her little demonlings grow up to have opportunities to get good, well-paying jobs in the mortal realm. Opportunities she never had!
In all seriousness, I don't see how it'd be hard to justify even Demons or Necromancy. Not any more than the many Dark-themed power sets. Sure, the average citizen of Paragon may tremble in fear when a couple of zombies pull a Hellion off her and puke all over the thug...but that doesn't make the necromancer evil. Sure, they're reanimating corpses...but that's just a taboo in our (by which I mean Western) culture. But if nobody's soul is getting tormented (and the necromancer isn't tossing leftover corpses into the drinking water), I don't think it would be a big deal.
Not to say people wouldn't get creeped the heck out by a heroic Necromancer...not much good publicity would come of it, admittedly. But it wouldn't really be any more evil than the myriad vampires, demons, and other such beings that are considered traditionally evil but have been serving as heroes.
Birth of a Villain Group (Arc ID 60573): Designed for villains level 1 - 10. Found a villainous organization on Mercy Island. Find a base, recruit some minions, gather valuable equipment, and destroy your enemies!
Also just the basics of the Mastermind class. How many heroes really have minions or underlings?
I can really only make the comparison to team leaders, like Xavier or something.
Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.
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I totally agree with you. But I'm thinking the Paragon Catholic church would definitely not be fans of Demon Summoning and Zombie MMs since they frown on everything else lol.
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Originally Posted by MaxXavier
I would just like to say that all you people are making the many demonic citizens out there in our fair country cry. Demons are people too! They have the right to not be bullied by you antidemonists! See that "hideous abomination" which was just summoned forth from the abyss? Her name is Hilda and she has three demonlings at home, and she's here fighting in our dimension to try and change the opinions of people like YOU. She just wants to see her little demonlings grow up to have opportunities to get good, well-paying jobs in the mortal realm. Opportunities she never had!
In all seriousness, I don't see how it'd be hard to justify even Demons or Necromancy. Not any more than the many Dark-themed power sets. Sure, the average citizen of Paragon may tremble in fear when a couple of zombies pull a Hellion off her and puke all over the thug...but that doesn't make the necromancer evil. Sure, they're reanimating corpses...but that's just a taboo in our (by which I mean Western) culture. But if nobody's soul is getting tormented (and the necromancer isn't tossing leftover corpses into the drinking water), I don't think it would be a big deal. Not to say people wouldn't get creeped the heck out by a heroic Necromancer...not much good publicity would come of it, admittedly. But it wouldn't really be any more evil than the myriad vampires, demons, and other such beings that are considered traditionally evil but have been serving as heroes. |
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
Stop calling them demons! They may be ugly but they have good hearts. It isn't their fault their mom lived downwind of Terra Volta.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Bots are easy. I have an inventor who has been working in secret in the Isles because Paragon City wouldn't grant him permits to field-test the mechanized units he developed as part of the program that developed Vanguard's HVAS units. So I'm treating GR as a chance for the permits to go through and he'll be able to operate his next round of trials on US soil instead of covert operations in the Isles.
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Daemonchilde: ((fluffy thinks he's a tank)) Demon . Hunter: (( I think mine is >.> Daemonchilde: ((Yours is no longer fluffy, it is Obliteron, destroyer of worlds)) |
Thematically, thugs could be used from a vigilante standpoint....good without being TOO good.
And, in cannon. Desdemona went heroside, and Infernal is heroside, and they both use demon summoning...I think the cannon storyline is that demon summoners bind the demons against their will, so... a Hero who can summon demons could FORCE the demons to be good.
Necromancy...well, the zombies can be forced to do good...but the liche is always evil so idk.
=D
Idk...I'm tempted to roll a Hero-side MM but I know that's going to be a majority now.
Magisterum- 50+3 Fortunata--Virtue
Lukerion- 33 Emp/Rad Defender--Virtue
Noah Heartily- 34 SS/SD brute- Virtue
Mika Heartily- 50+1 Fire/MM blaster-Virtue
I got a Praetorian Thugs MM to Paragon on Virtue today. Him and his thugs are an undercover gang unit working for PPD.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
I just kind of realized this...
There is nothing like the Mastermind class in the City of Heroes game proper. Every other class has its similar heroic counterpart, but not the Mastermind.
Now that this is the first time that the MM will be going through typical Hero missions, task forces, etc with Going Rogue, what are the problems that have already arisen and been addressed? Any at all?
Also, thematically, how does a heroic Mastermind work?
Demons? No way. Well, maybe. Some sort of Dr. Strange-type summoner.
Robots? Maybe.
Thugs? No way. Unless you're organizing a work-program for youths seeking redemption.
Mercernaries? Sure. Agent of SHIELD and such.
Ninjas? Hmmm. I guess not. Daredevil isn't handling it too well as the leader of the HAND right now.
Thoughts?
Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.