More villain content, less hero content.


Aura_Familia

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork View Post
I like the redside content. Less random zoning for no purpose than just to see more loading screens. Also, fewer "Hunt 40-50 of these guys" missions.


Anyway, aside from Golden Girl and apparently TCS, how many folks stick with only ONE side?
It isn't that GG sticks with one side... she only plays ONE character.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork View Post
I like the redside content. Less random zoning for no purpose than just to see more loading screens. Also, fewer "Hunt 40-50 of these guys" missions.


Anyway, aside from Golden Girl and apparently TCS, how many folks stick with only ONE side?
I have characters on both sides, The free server transfers will let me shift them around tho and open up slots on some servers while building up a presence on others. And I can free up some names without deleting anyone.


 

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Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm View Post
It isn't that GG sticks with one side... she only plays ONE character.
Which is even MORE boring, but that's her problem, not mine.


Old Blueside content sucks in places, but the newer Blueside stuff is pretty good. I just ran a Scrapper around with XP turned off at 33 to try to run it all at that level, and I gotta say, it got boring in places. I'm glad I could run some of the Croatoa stuff as a reward.


 

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Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork View Post
Which is even MORE boring, but that's her problem, not mine.


Old Blueside content sucks in places, but the newer Blueside stuff is pretty good. I just ran a Scrapper around with XP turned off at 33 to try to run it all at that level, and I gotta say, it got boring in places. I'm glad I could run some of the Croatoa stuff as a reward.

See that's an idea I've been toying with. I have a leperchaun I'm leveling up to make Croatoa his home. Once he hits my target level I'm turning off his xp, and I'll run him when I want play around in that zone.


 

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Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm View Post
We were promised that the devs would not be using their resources to change those long blueside arcs, yet they stabbed us in the back yet again.

I don't think this was ever promised anywhere.
As for Maria And Tina getting tweaked that makes sense considering the update to the Praetorian story line.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm View Post
We were promised that the devs would not be using their resources to change those long blueside arcs, yet they stabbed us in the back yet again.
Quote please.

Until you do you are just an ineffective trolling liar.


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Posted

I remember one of the devs once saying changing old content wasn't efficient use of time and that they would rather make new content. That may be what he is referring to. But since everything was already there because of GR updating(not remaking) old arcs like that may have been much simpler. At least that is my guess.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm View Post
Two issues in a row now you have provided the whiny heroes with more new content than Villains. Stop doing CoH revamps and start adding exclusively to CoV for parity.
Dude what are you talking about you guys already got enough Story content and now you also getting GR, Whiny Hero you say, you are the one that being whiny. now GR which give you more access to not just Villain Content but also Heroes as well when you go Rogue. Oh and they added Some New Stuff over the years for Villains, Like a new Content for issue !17 with your Clone and there also a Villain Story Arc in Cimerora, Also you guys are getting Tip Mission for GR. Or is this all not enough to, you make me sick, I also Have to say this I Play on Both side and I think we got enough Content as it is, We could use more End Game Content yes, I agree on that, but that is for both Sides not just Villain.

PS: You make me Sick,you not a Villain, Just a wimpy Little Cry Baby!


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
Until you do you are just an ineffective trolling liar.
oh hey, maybe THAT explains why they're on my ignore list!

=P


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Posted

There is significantly less villain content, no doubt, but I think what content the villains do have is more polished. The best example I can think of are the TFs/SFs. Look at stuff like Synapse's/Sister Psyche's/etc. TFs. There really isn't much to distinguish them from regular missions except their length.

Now look at the beginning SFs redside: The Binder of Beasts, Crystal Keeper, etc arcs that all had pretty cool set pieces at least somewhere in there.

As the game expanded and Emmert buggered off, the TFs got better (see Statesman's TF, the Cimerora arc, LGTF) but a lot of the TFs blueside are still fairly dull. While I generally think of all the SFs as being pretty cool (and thankfully much tighter in terms of storytelling and mission count).

The ideal solution is this: stop ADDING blueside content and simply REFINE what's there, as has been done with Posi's arc, Faultline, Hollows, etc. Any additional content added really should be put in the Rogue Isles. On the overworld map of the Isles, there's at least a few places that we can't officially travel to, and I really don't think anybody would complain if they wanted to maybe expand and throw another island in or something.


 

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Originally Posted by Emperor_Justin View Post
There is significantly less villain content, no doubt, but I think what content the villains do have is more polished. The best example I can think of are the TFs/SFs. Look at stuff like Synapse's/Sister Psyche's/etc. TFs. There really isn't much to distinguish them from regular missions except their length.

Now look at the beginning SFs redside: The Binder of Beasts, Crystal Keeper, etc arcs that all had pretty cool set pieces at least somewhere in there.

As the game expanded and Emmert buggered off, the TFs got better (see Statesman's TF, the Cimerora arc, LGTF) but a lot of the TFs blueside are still fairly dull. While I generally think of all the SFs as being pretty cool (and thankfully much tighter in terms of storytelling and mission count).
Just have to bring up some (pre-Death (or exit) of Statesman examples, blueside -
The Hess TF (Fight in a volcano, and the "trap" room)
Eden trial (c'mon, just *look* at it!)
Sewer trial - even if it's still (IIRC) rather broken
Katie Hannon (More set pieces)
Even Synapse has (a) a GM fight near the end, "out in the wild," and (b) a setpiece in the Clockwork King's court.

Now, yeah, the Surviving Eight TFs in general need some reworking with what's been learned over the last six years and change, absolutely. (So do the Shard TFs.... which also have some unique settings on occasion outside the Shard itself.) But it's not all "Jack era = suck, Jack left = great." The Eden trial's still visually one of my favourites.


 

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Good points Bill, and true as well. However, there's no denying that on average the quality and thematic awesomeness of the TFs/SFs has gone up in the past couple years.


 

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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
I would like to point out to the OP just why (as in, because of who's response to je_saist) he has that quote in his sig... I'd say "before he does something like this," but it's a little late for that.
wait. I'm not even IN this thread and I'm still getting mentioned, somehow?

I think GG and I are gonna need to form some sort of support club...

Okay, I really don't have anything to add to the thread that hasn't already been said in the past. I've made feelings clear in the past that CoV has always been budgeted as, and treated as, a minor expansion. I've stated in the past that part of the perception problem with CoV was the insistence from Cryptic and marketing was that CoV was a completely new game, that it was equivalent to CoH, and that it was going to be supported equal to CoH. Given that Cryptic's long-term plans for CoH could ultimately be described as don't do anything with it that's going to take attention away from Marvel Universe Online, I'm not entirely convinced that it's a stretch to say that Cryptic didn't actually have any intent to follow through on developing CoV.

Now, should Paragon Studios be held responsible for the marketing and positioning of CoV as a product? I'm not sure I can answer that in an unbiased way. My biased opinion is no, they should not. Paragon Studios should be judged by what they've done with the game since they were bought out from Cryptic.

NCSoft completed the purchase in November 2007, which incidentally was the same month Issue 11 hit, so let's start there.

Issue 11 featured Ouroborus, unlocking story content on both sides.

Issue 12 featured Cimerora and the Midnighters club, which again, was largely for both sides.

Issue 13 brought Merit rewards, Day jobs, Leveling packs, the ability for Villains to swap out Patron Powers.

Issue 14 was AE, which again is faction neutral.

Issue 15 saw a new Strike Force and Task Force. Many players say the Villain Task force is far more interesting to play through, and more a more unique experience... albeit it is significantly more difficult compared to the Hero TF.

Issue 16 saw Power Customization. Now I can see a semi-beef here because Mastermind's didn't get power customization. It's been covered several times on the forums, and I'll do it again. This was not a slight against Masterminds. This was not some form of insult. Exposing customization options on Masterminds would require additional engine work as well as additional user-interface work, and that programmer time just wasn't available.

Issue 17 brought forth Ultra Mode, and new power sets, including the currently villain unique power-set Demon Summoning.

Issue 18 is bringing the Tips missions and Cathedral of Pain.

Now, I'm sorry if this factual list of what has actually been added to the game annoys people who seriously believe that Devs hate villains, but there's been absolutely nothing in the expansion releases to suggest that the Paragon Studio developers have given preference to either side. Rather, a lot of the expansions deal with giving Villains equivalent status, or bringing them up to equivalent status.

My opinion, and again, OPINION, is that if NCSoft decides, next year, that Going Rogue isn't meeting sales targets, and that the CoH player base does not meet subscription targets, and that the developers need to focus on a Sequel title to City of Heroes, a future game would be built from the ground up to account the 4 established factions as of Going Rogue.

If NCSoft decides, next year, that Going Rogue did meet sales targets, and that the CoH player base is meeting subscription targets, we will likely see further faction-based story content working it's way into the current game. My opinion is that such contacts will be doled out equally across the factions.

Do I know that is what is going to happen? No. I'm not even sure Positron and War Witch know, for sure, what their development plans are going to look like next year.

My opinion is that they are already pre-planning for the possibility of a completely new game or extending the game they already have.


 

Posted

I17 had more 'content' for villains than heroes.

Dual Pistols is available on both sides, but Demon Summoning is only available to MMs.

The OP needs to return to hiding under his bridge.


Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.

 

Posted

I think, at least, the Devs need to cut back on the "both sides friendly" content because then it just waters it down. RWZ is awesome, and Issue 10 was one of my faves, but Vanguard is very much a Hero organization. They want to save the world. By throwing villains into the mix, it means the hero content was less heroic, and the villainous content less villainous. Same with Cimerora.

Now that we have GR and switching sides, I'd like to see focus on each side. Since people can switch now, nobody has to feel left out. For instance, maybe The Rogue Isles get their own type of Rikti-centric area, where Recluse or somebody from Arachnos is working with the Restructurists to take out Vanguard. They'd have their own base and method of transport to the RWZ, so it could still host all ATs, but it would be a different option. Stuff like that. I want my villain to be a real *******! An evil, cunning, malevolent jerk who is out to ruin everybody's day. Not some namby-pamby wishy washy "Well sometimes I rob a bank, and sometimes I rescue Longbow PoWs."

No! Boo! If I rescue a Longbow PoW from the Rikti, it should only be so I can kidnap him myself, and drop him off a building.

tl;dr
stop splitting your attention and focus on one side at a time.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor_Justin View Post
I think, at least, the Devs need to cut back on the "both sides friendly" content because then it just waters it down. RWZ is awesome, and Issue 10 was one of my faves, but Vanguard is very much a Hero organization. They want to save the world. By throwing villains into the mix, it means the hero content was less heroic, and the villainous content less villainous. Same with Cimerora.
I never understood how fighting off the Rikti invasion is only something a hero would do. I mean, if the world got destroyed or everyone wiped out, wouldn't that include the villains? I won't argue that the villain arcs were worded poorly, but how is it not in a villain's best interest to stay alive?


 

Posted

I don't think vills should be completely cut out entirely, but it definitely needs some retooling, and I still think the option should be there for a more villainous alternative. As the man Michael Caine himself said "Some men just want to watch the world burn." The comics industry has enough psychotics around who wouldn't mind going out if it meant taking a vast majority of a given population with them.

Options is what I'm trying to focus on, and not getting content that is thematically watered down for the sake of giving equal time to red and blue sides.


 

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Originally Posted by MunkiLord View Post
I never understood how fighting off the Rikti invasion is only something a hero would do. I mean, if the world got destroyed or everyone wiped out, wouldn't that include the villains? I won't argue that the villain arcs were worded poorly, but how is it not in a villain's best interest to stay alive?
That's just it, if a villain were going to fight a war they wouldn't be rescuing longbow or diplomats, they'd be sacrificing the longbow who were weak enough to be captured so that they'd get an open shot on a rikti leader and take him out. The series of arcs in RWZ should have been completely different for both sides, playing to their respective strengths. But that was back when the game was still with cryptic and they only had like 16 people working on it. Now they have enough employees that they don't need to "get more bang for their buck" and make content that can be done by both sides.

Praetoria is a great example of how they can do in depth story for both sides. I'm sure it took a ton of time to get all those arcs worked out and put together, but boy is it worth it.



 

Posted

Screw content tbh, i just want MORE VILLAIN SF'S come on....screw hero revamps of tfs, we dont even have enough to do compared to heroes..i wouldnt mind if we get a revamp hero tf n new sf at the same time.but more sf's r neeed


 

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Originally Posted by Zaloopa View Post
That's just it, if a villain were going to fight a war they wouldn't be rescuing longbow or diplomats, they'd be sacrificing the longbow who were weak enough to be captured so that they'd get an open shot on a rikti leader and take him out. The series of arcs in RWZ should have been completely different for both sides, playing to their respective strengths. But that was back when the game was still with cryptic and they only had like 16 people working on it. Now they have enough employees that they don't need to "get more bang for their buck" and make content that can be done by both sides.

Praetoria is a great example of how they can do in depth story for both sides. I'm sure it took a ton of time to get all those arcs worked out and put together, but boy is it worth it.
That's kind of a strange view on Villains, at least to me. If a Villain decides to throw in their lot with Vanguard, rather than acting alone against the local Rikti threat, you'd expect them to follow orders. Otherwise, they'd be thrown out of Vanguard pretty fast.

But yeah, the RWZ arcs could have been more neutrally worded. It wouldn't have been too much of a stretch to make Sefu and Dietrich into elite Vanguard agents instead. Of course, for the mercenary minded villains, the RWZ is nothing but win. Standard pay, plus Vanguard benefits? For taking out things that were annoying you in the first place? That's a pretty nice deal.


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Considering where villains come from, (Rogue Isles, whose whole schtick is doing whatever the hell you want if you're tough enough) I find it quite natural for a villain to say "Screw you're orders, this is what works for me." Vanguard's policy seems more like "If you got powers and want to fight Rikti, we'll take you," instead of being a huge stickler for mission particulars, given that they're pretty much telling Longbow to go stuff it since they're hiring vills in the first place.

I'd find it more strange for a standard villain NOT to break rules and disobey orders. That's what a villain basically is. they're there to break the law and disrupt the status quo. It's what makes them a villain!

The way the RWZ is now, thematically, the only kind of villains who make sense ARE the merc type villains who don't care about saving the day, just staying alive and getting paid, or those villains who would go rogue and eventually hero.

The straight up greedy, selfish villain gets screwed in the Vanguard RP-wise because they have no other choice but to do good-guy work in a good-guy way..


 

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Originally Posted by Emperor_Justin View Post
Considering where villains come from, (Rogue Isles, whose whole schtick is doing whatever the hell you want if you're tough enough) I find it quite natural for a villain to say "Screw you're orders, this is what works for me." Vanguard's policy seems more like "If you got powers and want to fight Rikti, we'll take you," instead of being a huge stickler for mission particulars, given that they're pretty much telling Longbow to go stuff it since they're hiring vills in the first place.

I'd find it more strange for a standard villain NOT to break rules and disobey orders. That's what a villain basically is. they're there to break the law and disrupt the status quo. It's what makes them a villain!

The way the RWZ is now, thematically, the only kind of villains who make sense ARE the merc type villains who don't care about saving the day, just staying alive and getting paid, or those villains who would go rogue and eventually hero.

The straight up greedy, selfish villain gets screwed in the Vanguard RP-wise because they have no other choice but to do good-guy work in a good-guy way..
Yeah, this pretty much sums it up. It would be cool if the vanguard stuff could be given morality choices, so you could follow orders OR you could go do your own thing. But then, I feel the same way about doing missions for Hardcase too. :P



 

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In regards to the RWZ and Villains....
Between Issue 7 and Issue 10 there was about a year long gap if not more.

Why is this important? Because Issue 7 introduced Grandville and the contact Ambassador Kuhr'rekt. Kuhr'rekt is a Restructurist Diplomat visiting the isles to negotiate with Recluse. He also has villains do some jobs for him.

By the time RWZ was released I'm fairly certain most Villains had worked with Kuhr'rekt. So if the Restructurists are negotiating with Recluse, and the Traditionalists are negotiating with Vanguard(who represents the U.N., of which the Rogue Isles are a member) why do Villains care? If the Restructurists win Recluse has a deal with them and the Isles will be fine. If the Traditionalists win the U.N. negotiates a peace treaty which would apply to the Isles. So regardless of the outcome of the war the Isles will be fine. So again why do Villains care?


 

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So most people seem to agree the new stuff is better then the old stuff.

TCS says blue side keeps getting more new stuff then redside.

If blueside has so much more new fun stuff then red why would TCS think there will be a mass exodus to redside?


 

Posted

Because TCS lives under a bridge, and likes to start threads to get attention.



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