More villain content, less hero content.
By
Aura_Familia,
Posted on: 2010-08-14 21:22 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
You have an entire 10+ mission arc rewritten for heroes come Tuesday and you had old Posi added to Ouro in i17.
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Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
Only masochists enjoy the very repeated defeat alls and unimaginative mission design of blueside content.
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That was your point, right? Heroside is lacking and needs attention?
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Originally Posted by Dr_HR
Screw content tbh, i just want MORE VILLAIN SF'S come on....screw hero revamps of tfs, we dont even have enough to do compared to heroes..i wouldnt mind if we get a revamp hero tf n new sf at the same time.but more sf's r neeed
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Until there is a 30-35 vill SF (or co-op, not fussy), I will end up with a load of villains stuck at 30 who really can't be bothered to run 20 odd paper missions to open up enough contacts to get to 35. At least now I will be able to move them over and do Katie/Manti.
It's probably compounded for me in that I infinitely prefer the hero respec trials to the villain ones, meaning that effectively below 35, there are a whole 3 SFs I actually do, compared to 11 or 12 TFs depending on how you count Posi.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
Trollish nature of the original post aside, I'm gonna go ahead and give my two cents on the matter anyway. City of Heroes was the original property, which then expanded to include villain play as well. Is it that surprising that blueside would receive more of the devs attention? (Not that I'm conceeding that it does, mind you.) The games devs were responsive enough to players desires to create an entire playground for those that want to play the bad guy, but rather than appreciate -that- folks would rather refer to them as lying backstabbers for not providing what they deem to be an adequate amount of content. I'd say you should appreciate and thank the devs for the fact that you can play a villain at -all-.
As far as I can tell (based on ease of finding teams, the overwhelming amount of blueside TFs formed versus SFs redside on global channels, blue vs. Red side Hami raid participation, to name a few sources) more people seem to play blue than red, so catering more to the desires of the majority is not only somewhat expected, its just good business. (Again, not conceeding that's what they're doing, but even if they were.).
Also, in trying to treat both sides as seperate games, it only makes sense for them to focus on somewhat "neutral" content that both sides can enjoy. If an issue were to heavily favor one side or the other, a significant portion of players would be alienated. If attention were equally given to -both- sides with faction-exclusive content, that would mean essentially either creating two large expansions/issues (a lot more development time and thus more waiting on new content for us), or creating two smaller expansions/issues, which, while taking less time to develop wouldn't be a satisfactory amount of content for either camp. In an attempt at fairness content has been released that both sides can partake of, but as one poster put it, -that- isn't satisfactory either because it doesn't let villains feel *evil* enough or heroes feel *hero* enough.
All in all no issue or expansion is probably going to 100% satisy any of us, but that's how it goes when you're developing a game for several thousand people, each with his/her own tastes. Appreciate what's here, offer constructive suggestions for what's not.
Mega you d\said
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This has happened several times already.| If an issue were to heavily favor one side or the other, a significant portion of players would be alienated |
i6 Favored Villains (duh COV release patch)
i7 favored villains(villain 40-50 content)
i8 favored heroes (faultline revamp)
i9 favored neither (inventions)
i10 favored heroes (RWz, yes villains can participate but the content largely ignores prior villain content, thus it doesn't particularly feel like a villain update)
i11 theoretically this was neutral, however due to the larger amount of hero content already in the game it could be argued that heroes get more from ouro than villains.
i12 cimerora's story is blatantly hero oriented,heroes had 3 arcs from the midnighters whereas villaind had 2 +Darrin Wade so while the content additions are even the nature of Cim has abias towards heroes.
i13 iirc introduced the 2 contacts in cim, the additional Midnighter contact and the SoA. I'd say the 2 cim contacts are even but the additional midnighter had 3 hero arcs and 1 villain arc(that could have been a hero arc with some changes) I guess the Soa evens this out abit but the arcs are so bad people have stopepd caring about them.
i14 completely even
i15 even (nod to vilalins for getting a better SF, but that was largely due to the work put in by the players during test.)
i16 even
i17 seems fairly even to me.
and now we have i18 and GR
as part of i18/GR Tina McIntyre and Maria Jenkins saw an update to thier arcs. I didn't see the automated villainy arc getting a doppleganger for the end fight. I wonder why?
So you spoke about alienating the players well Villains largely feel alienated.
You also talked about putting content where the majority of palyers are, yes that's good business sense however it's also a catch 22. More heroes than villains, so heroes get more content, vilalins get frustrated and bored and either move to hero side or leave, thus there are more heroes than villains so heroes get more content and it repeats.
CoV has been out for 5 or 6 years now and it still needs to catch up to heroes in some areas, whereas heroes have consistently been catching up to villains in the areas that they needed to.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
Mega you d\said
This has happened several times already. i6 Favored Villains (duh COV release patch) i7 favored villains(villain 40-50 content) i8 favored heroes (faultline revamp) i9 favored neither (inventions) i10 favored heroes (RWz, yes villains can participate but the content largely ignores prior villain content, thus it doesn't particularly feel like a villain update) i11 theoretically this was neutral, however due to the larger amount of hero content already in the game it could be argued that heroes get more from ouro than villains. i12 cimerora's story is blatantly hero oriented,heroes had 3 arcs from the midnighters whereas villaind had 2 +Darrin Wade so while the content additions are even the nature of Cim has abias towards heroes. i13 iirc introduced the 2 contacts in cim, the additional Midnighter contact and the SoA. I'd say the 2 cim contacts are even but the additional midnighter had 3 hero arcs and 1 villain arc(that could have been a hero arc with some changes) I guess the Soa evens this out abit but the arcs are so bad people have stopepd caring about them. i14 completely even i15 even (nod to vilalins for getting a better SF, but that was largely due to the work put in by the players during test.) i16 even i17 seems fairly even to me. and now we have i18 and GR as part of i18/GR Tina McIntyre and Maria Jenkins saw an update to thier arcs. I didn't see the automated villainy arc getting a doppleganger for the end fight. I wonder why? So you spoke about alienating the players well Villains largely feel alienated. You also talked about putting content where the majority of palyers are, yes that's good business sense however it's also a catch 22. More heroes than villains, so heroes get more content, vilalins get frustrated and bored and either move to hero side or leave, thus there are more heroes than villains so heroes get more content and it repeats. CoV has been out for 5 or 6 years now and it still needs to catch up to heroes in some areas, whereas heroes have consistently been catching up to villains in the areas that they needed to. |
i17... Posi revamp PLUS they put old Posi in Ouro as a slap to the face. Also when was hollows revamp?
IMO, Praetoria is pretty much all villain content. You just get to choose your particular flavor. It's not a place for heroes.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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I don't consider revamping an entirely new thing.|
Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
i17... Posi revamp PLUS they put old Posi in Ouro as a slap to the face. Also when was hollows revamp?
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Faultline revamp added content to a zone that had almost nothing in it.So it counts as an addition
Hollows revamp changed mission placement and spawn points. IIRC the Hollows revamp was something War Witch had done on a lunch break or something similar.Nothing really changed except some QoL stuff which I don't consider content for this argument.
Posi revamp certainly chagned thigns around, however the Devs have always stated that Posi was meant to be 2 parts. Now it is.
You also seem to have forgotten about Silver Mantis being palced out in the open. Considering very few people have ever done the SM or even knew about it I'd say that's somewhat comparable.
It's certainly even with the Hollows revamp at any rate.
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Originally Posted by Megajoule
IMO, Praetoria is pretty much all villain content. You just get to choose your particular flavor. It's not a place for heroes.
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I agree and disagree... The only two paths in Praetoria which aren't Villainous are the Responsible Loyalists and the Warden Resistance. They both choose the lesser of two evils... |
Originally Posted by Megajoule
IMO, Praetoria is pretty much all villain content. You just get to choose your particular flavor. It's not a place for heroes.
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Though neither of them is particularly heroic, either.
-Rachel-
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Then City of Villains, a paid expansion, shouldn't count, either.|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Praetoria as a paid expansion shouldn't factor into this discussion.
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Which means every piece of content, ever, is made for heroes!
-Rachel-
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The Warden path is the heroic path through the new content - the others are villainous |
Originally Posted by Megajoule
IMO, Praetoria is pretty much all villain content. You just get to choose your particular flavor. It's not a place for heroes.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Except that CoH and CoV were merged into one game. As of Good vs Evil edition and the NCSoft takeover anyone that has a CoH account also has a CoV account and vice versa. for CoH and CoV you can't have one without the other, this is not the case with GR.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Then City of Villains, a paid expansion, shouldn't count, either.
Which means every piece of content, ever, is made for heroes! -Rachel- |
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Yet.|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Except that CoH and CoV were merged into one game. As of Good vs Evil edition and the NCSoft takeover anyone that has a CoH account also has a CoV account and vice versa. for CoH and CoV you can't have one without the other, this is not the case with GR.
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It's a fairly safe assumption that, at some later date, they're going to merge in Going Rogue as well, to maximize the utilization of their content and further provide for alternate character creation. This assumption is based on the game's design, previous history, and Developer statements about their intent -being- the creation of multiple characters rather than building one character to the highest level and grinding eternally.
You also can't have Going Rogue without having CoH and CoV. Buying the expansion auto-applies both games to a new account opened with the GR code.
Don't exclude content just because it doesn't fit into your argument.
-Rachel-
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I'm confident that at some future point GR will be added to the 'base game' just as CoV was.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
Except that CoH and CoV were merged into one game. As of Good vs Evil edition and the NCSoft takeover anyone that has a CoH account also has a CoV account and vice versa. for CoH and CoV you can't have one without the other, this is not the case with GR.
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I want to be the first, I hope, to say "Devs hate Praetorians".
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I'm confident that at some future point GR will be added to the 'base game' just as CoV was.
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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A person still whining about "redside versus blueside" content after today is like a East Berliner whining to the East German government to put a new coat of paint on the Berlin Wall while everyone else is busy tearing it down...|
Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
Two issues in a row now you have provided the heroes with more new content than Villains.
Stop doing CoH revamps and start adding exclusively to CoV for parity. |
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Granted GR isn't merged Yet.
While it's true you can't have GR without CoH/V you can certainly have CoH/V without GR for now.
Until that changes I don't think it's appropriate to include GR content in this discussion.
Especially since having GR makes this discussion pointless, since any At can do any content with GR active.
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This is the point most people in the thread are getting at. People who play ONLY CoV and nothing else are limiting themselves when they don't absolutely need to.|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Especially since having GR makes this discussion pointless, since any At can do any content with GR active.
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If it's a cash issue I totally understand and accept that. I get that not everyone can afford the new expansion... But it does make the discussion moot for the people who can. And judging by the server population explosions of last night, I think we can safely say that many, if not most, players have picked up GR.
Which makes the argument moot.
-Rachel-
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Same for people who only play CoH.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
This is the point most people in the thread are getting at. People who play ONLY CoV and nothing else are limiting themselves when they don't absolutely need to.
-Rachel- |
And with CoH and CoV having been merged there is no reason not to add things to CoV. Yet CoV has had very little content added for it.
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I wish they would add one contact for villains with new missions at each of the 5 levels' increments. Even if they only added 1 arc of 3-5 missions for each. They could skip the 20s for a while just because we got the new stuff for that recently but certainly something in the other ranges would be welcome especially 1-5.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
Same for people who only play CoH.
And with CoH and CoV having been merged there is no reason not to add things to CoV. Yet CoV has had very little content added for it. |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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And CoH -has-?|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Same for people who only play CoH.
And with CoH and CoV having been merged there is no reason not to add things to CoV. Yet CoV has had very little content added for it. |
Since CoV has launched it's had one issue basically devoted entirely to it (issue 7) and since then has received content at roughly the same rate as CoH.
Hollows Revamp? VEATs with a handful of crappy missions and a ton of awesome power.
The Faultline Revamp of Issue 8 was the biggest "Hero Content Only" change. And it's the only one I really consider worth noting, to be honest.
The Revamped Posi TF and changes to the level 50 content were small, and really don't count for a whole lot in my eyes.
Does this mean I don't want more Villainside content? No. Not by a long shot. I'd love to see three or five new Strike Forces and maybe another zone or two to house them.
But I'm not going to go to the forums and whine about how heroes are whiny and villains need more content than heroes do. The fact remains that City of Heroes is the big draw for new players, thanks to our societal structure and morality. As a society we're trained to have a love/hate relationship with villains and simply love heroes. It's understandable that CoH would have a greater overall draw to players. And thanks to that series of facts it's also understandable that the Devs would focus their talents on polishing and fixing that content in order to bring it towards the standards of the villainside content.
So while I agree there should be more villainside content I don't begrudge the Devs for polishing the older hero content when they can while adding new content alongside it. I'd love if they spent the next several issues after i19 polishing old hero zones and content while releasing new villain content and Praetorian content.
-Rachel-
Dangit, Steampunkette, stop being so reasonable. Don't you know you're in S&I???
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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Wh... OH!|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
Dangit, Steampunkette, stop being so reasonable. Don't you know you're in S&I???
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Sorry! Sorry! Thought I was still in the Beta Chatter and Discussion forums. *ahems*
Devs haet Pratoria! Don't feed teh Trolls! Massive Lulz! Epic Phail! /jranger
-Rachel-
Setting aside the OP.
Praetoria is real villain content not the pseudo villain content of the Rogue Isles.
The ability to be free of Arachnos and Statesman by Rogue/Vigilante.
So I'd say overall Going Rogue is more for those who want to play villains than those who want to be Recluse's or Statesman's lackeys.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.