Can Batman be held responsible for the Joker's murders?
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2010-08-12 10:37 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
Am I the only one that watched "Under the Red Hood"? Or are we just not mentioning it because it's too new and we'd have to spoiler alert the whole thread?
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... Did you see the image in my OP? I specifically gave a nod to the "Yes, we can" vote the Red Hood would have given.
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
Am I the only one that watched "Under the Red Hood"? Or are we just not mentioning it because it's too new and we'd have to spoiler alert the whole thread?
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So the real issue is whether or not the Batman could beat John Stuart Mill in a philosophical fight?|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
Essentially the story's editor sent a bunch of Batman-esque questions to qualified people and published their answers site unseen. While I understand the merit of that, I stopped halfway through. At least two-three chapters used their chosen question to avoid the actual question and give a basic introduction of Utilitarianism.
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Obviously the answer is yes provided the Batman is allowed time to prepare.
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No. All it proves is that Gotham isn't in Texas. Texans would have executed the Joker years ago.
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Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
Batman is the only person able to stop the Joker (Cops be gettin' nerfed in comic worlds, yo). Additionally, the insanity defense consistently finds the Laughing Lunatic virtually immune to any legal system repercussions. This binds the hands of every Law Enforcement Official in the Bat-verse
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Doesn't Joker scare the crap out of the rest of Earth's villains? You'd think they
would get together and try to eliminate him, if only to keep him from screwing with their own plans at some later date.
Goodbye, I guess.
@Lord_Nightblade in Champions/Star Trek Online
nightblade7295@gmail.com if you want to stay in touch
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Well Joker has this nasty habit of being unkillable, like many of the heroes, so it goes back to that saying, "don't wound what you can't kill, especially if what you can't kill will slaughter you and your entire family by making them literally laugh themselves to death."
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Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade
Doesn't Joker scare the crap out of the rest of Earth's villains? You'd think they
would get together and try to eliminate him, if only to keep him from screwing with their own plans at some later date. |
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
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I can't imagine any serious villain in the DCU being scared of The Joker. Heck, Deadshot had the drop on him not too long ago and if not for interference, the clown would be pushin' up daisies.
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Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade
Doesn't Joker scare the crap out of the rest of Earth's villains? You'd think they
would get together and try to eliminate him, if only to keep him from screwing with their own plans at some later date. |
"They've got us surrounded again, the poor bastards." - General Creighton W. Abrams
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bats try to plant Darkseid not too long ago?
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Originally Posted by Durakken
Batman does not kill.
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"They've got us surrounded again, the poor bastards." - General Creighton W. Abrams
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This. Joker has mag 99 plot armor. Otherwise for all the cops the Joker has killed over the years alone would resulted in some cops taking justice into their own hands while he was handcuffed and killed him while they claim he was escaping. That's the real blame for Jokers unending rampages.....his popularity as it's a super power in comics. Otherwise a nut job with human levels of durability being regularly in police custody would never lasted this long as way too many people have good reason to kill him.|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Well Joker has this nasty habit of being unkillable, like many of the heroes, so it goes back to that saying, "don't wound what you can't kill, especially if what you can't kill will slaughter you and your entire family by making them literally laugh themselves to death."
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Anyone who sells books will some how endure. Just like This in Xmen, crazy retcons abound. They won't die no matter how illogical.
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| Batman does not kill. |
Then came the 90s and all his rogues became full blown psychopaths who slaughter the masses of gotham. So in order for him not to off them all like most of the planet likely would they gave him an extremely rigrid no kill policy. (Which all lackeys his rogues have plot armor so he doesn't accidentally drop any of them using his brutal tactics.)
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Funny note: In the limited edition Dead Girl run, they actually explain that: In the Marvel Universe, the celestial powers that be can hear public outcry for their most beloved people. When the cry gets loud enough, they arrange events to allow for a deceased one's revival.|
Originally Posted by Lastjustice
Anyone who sells books will some how endure. Just like This in Xmen, crazy retcons abound. They won't die no matter how illogical.
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Yes, "Back by popular demand" is actually a canonical idea in the Marvel-verse. And for that, I absolutely love them.
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The only one who can hold Batman accountable for the Jokers crime killing spree's is the Batman. Would he ever think -If I just killing him I am saving countless innocent people. Or does he think I'm obeying the letter of the Law - The Joker is Societies mistake. My guess is the former whicjh opens the intresting thought of giving Gotham what it deserves.
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Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
Batman is the only person able to stop the Joker (Cops be gettin' nerfed in comic worlds, yo). Additionally, the insanity defense consistently finds the Laughing Lunatic virtually immune to any legal system repercussions. This binds the hands of every Law Enforcement Official in the Bat-verse.
So... when the Joker kills a thousand people, Batman insists on arresting him and giving him a "fair" trial. This lays the groundwork for the Joker escaping and killing a thousand people. Can we blame Batman for not killing him in any of this nonsense?  Don't ask this guy. |
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Reminds me of a thread I was going to write a while ago. Most heroes and villains have plot armor. For goodness sake, all it would take to kill Batman OR Superman would be a sniper. Batman does not have enhanced senses, and someone could arrange for a crime to be commited while stationing a sniper watching the entrance a mile away. Batman would never see it coming. As for Superman, replace the bullet with kryptonite, and where as he can hear and dodge said bullet, his own confidence would not lead him to examine the bullet before it hit him, and he would let it hit him thinking it would bounce off.|
Originally Posted by Comeuppance
I can't imagine any serious villain in the DCU being scared of The Joker. Heck, Deadshot had the drop on him not too long ago and if not for interference, the clown would be pushin' up daisies.
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As for the topic, no, he is not. Batman does more to stop the Joker than anyone else, and all heroes have to leave it to the legal system. Otherwise Luthor would be ash already.
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Yes, but other than that, nobody made mention of the film. I would have imagined that a movie dealing almost specifically with your very question would have come up in more forms than a cute picture of some lego thing. |
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
... Did you see the image in my OP? I specifically gave a nod to the "Yes, we can" vote the Red Hood would have given.
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Being that Batman, allegedly, had a hand in creating the Joker, of course he is partially responsible for his existence, but then, I probably use a different definition of "responsible" than most. Nikola Telsa is responsible for creating electricity (**** that Edison guy), but I don't blame him when an aircraft carrier drops a bomb on a helpless village of innocents, much in the same way I don't blame Batman when Joker does something similiar. It isn't as though Batman *has* to do something about it; plenty of other capable people don't.
While I personally would have killed the Joker, I understand why Batman does not.
EDIT: @BlackArachnia
Batman wouldn't get hit by a Sniper, because he would have PREPARED his location ahead of time so that he was never open for a shot by a sniper rifle.
Also, in Batman: Arkham Asylum, all Sniper Rifles in the world have a red beam and make a loud noise when they are aiming at you.
So there.
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Oh for Chrissake that is the second most stupidest explanation I have ever heard.
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Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
Funny note: In the limited edition Dead Girl run, they actually explain that: In the Marvel Universe, the celestial powers that be can hear public outcry for their most beloved people. When the cry gets loud enough, they arrange events to allow for a deceased one's revival.
Yes, "Back by popular demand" is actually a canonical idea in the Marvel-verse. And for that, I absolutely love them. |
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Well, it was done in a comedy series that was all for the lulz, but I don't think that it was ever stated to be against canon. The rule was lampshading how the heads of comic companies care more about the character that sells than story integrity.|
Originally Posted by BlackArachnia
Oh for Chrissake that is the second most stupidest explanation I have ever heard.
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Still, I love it.
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Plot armor.|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
EDIT: @BlackArachnia Batman wouldn't get hit by a Sniper, because he would have PREPARED his location ahead of time so that he was never open for a shot by a sniper rifle. Also, in Batman: Arkham Asylum, all Sniper Rifles in the world have a red beam and make a loud noise when they are aiming at you. So there. |
He can't plan where he enters all the time, there may only be one entrance. The sniper can plan to have the proper entrance waiting to set up, not the sniped. I do not think snipers use laser scopes, it would defeat the purpose. By the time the sound gets to the sniped, they are usually dead. The sniper can also avoid letting the criminal element know the plan by simply setting up a perfect heist. In other words, they hire a gallery to show a piece of art, knowing that it will attract criminals. Art shows go up all the time.
In other words, no he can't plan that well, and I like Batman. He has plot armor. Superman could fry his Batman's brain from orbit. No amount of kryptonite kept on Batman could protect him.
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Have you considered a Kryptonite Shield which reflects Superman laser beams back as Kryptonite beams? |
Originally Posted by BlackArachnia
Plot armor.
He can't plan where he enters all the time, there may only be one entrance. The sniper can plan to have the proper entrance waiting to set up, not the sniped. I do not think snipers use laser scopes, it would defeat the purpose. By the time the sound gets to the sniped, they are usually dead. The sniper can also avoid letting the criminal element know the plan by simply setting up a perfect heist. In other words, they hire a gallery to show a piece of art, knowing that it will attract criminals. Art shows go up all the time. In other words, no he can't plan that well, and I like Batman. He has plot armor. Superman could fry his Batman's brain from orbit. No amount of kryptonite kept on Batman could protect him. |
That is one thing that always bothers me about Superman, actually. He has a perfectly good and potent ranged weapon, yet he almost *never* makes use of it unless it's to do something relatively dumb.
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Joker scaring other villains is one of the things I utterly despise about DC. Characters like Black Adam, Zoom, Grodd, Deathstroke, Luthor, Prometheus, Bane, hell, even freaking Catman, among a multitude of others, are better than that.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade
Doesn't Joker scare the crap out of the rest of Earth's villains?
You'd think they would get together and try to eliminate him, if only to keep him from screwing with their own plans at some later date. |
I can see certain "big picture" villains keeping Joker around for the chaos he creates, and the Joker is so focused on Batman anyway. But being afraid of a him? No, just no.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
insofar as he is tolerated by the gotham cops, batman is a deputized agent of law enforcement. he has no more right to try and sentence a criminal than any cop does. if the joker takes a shot at him, he has the right to respond in self defense, and given his capacity for self defense, he would likely be held at a much higher standard for when he could use lethal force. but the responsibility for housing the joker lies at the feet of the people. If they cant get the job done, they could renegotiate their deal with batman as a public executioner, I suspect he and many heroes would walk away, i think we discussed this a while ago on the hero boards, and i suggested my main character, Rian Frostdrake would walk away from that arrangement as well. Leave that business to Rorschach or magog (for the kingdom come reference)
And besides, the only real reason the joker gets out so often is because of the narrative crush the authors and fans have on him. The same reason batman can pull off supposedly natural feats that are simply comical when looked at from a realistic perspective by just his "training and planning" is the same narrative leeway we give the joker in his incredible escapes, could a real functioning city exist with that porous of a penal system, no way, but we accept it because the two just play so darn well off of each other, being almost the same person with a few minor differences.
How many of us would have our "Heroes" play judge, jury and executioner to say someone like Dr. Vhaz? If given that moral choice on a ture hero would you "arrest" or "murder"? And yes i do mean murder, in the fact that your foe has given up and ready to surrender.
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While I certainly agree that the Joker and Batman are overhyped to a degree, they all do have a reason to be scared of the Joker: He's smarter than all of them. Watch any movie that has a multitude of villains (World's Finest, Under the Red Hood, Dark Knight). The Joker will always come out on top, and not just because of plot armor. Much like Jeremiah Berek of 7th Sea, the fact that he's so far out there grants him outside thinking that allows him to access strategies most other people can't conceive. He is the dark mirror of Batman: He can win if he doesn't have time to plan. |
Originally Posted by Agonus
I can see certain "big picture" villains keeping Joker around for the chaos he creates, and the Joker is so focused on Batman anyway. But being afraid of a him? No, just no.
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To much energy to design and to easily detected. The absorbtion of the energy and refraction of it at exactly the precise point becomes less of a gadget and more of a full blown system. |
Originally Posted by Warkupo
Have you considered a Kryptonite Shield which reflects Superman laser beams back as Kryptonite beams?
That is one thing that always bothers me about Superman, actually. He has a perfectly good and potent ranged weapon, yet he almost *never* makes use of it unless it's to do something relatively dumb. |
But over all you are right about Superman. I think we could say it is due to the fact that his heat vision is a lethal attack. Nevermind that with one punch he could level mountains.
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Character shields and author favoritism aside, unpredictability from an otherwise completely human character -should- only go so far. Against low tier characters and hapless citizens? Sure, I'll give you that. Against characters capable of destroying a city block with the equivalent of a wave of their hand? No way. |
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
While I certainly agree that the Joker and Batman are overhyped to a degree, they all do have a reason to be scared of the Joker: He's smarter than all of them. Watch any movie that has a multitude of villains (World's Finest, Under the Red Hood, Dark Knight). The Joker will always come out on top, and not just because of plot armor. Much like Jeremiah Berek of 7th Sea, the fact that he's so far out there grants him outside thinking that allows him to access strategies most other people can't conceive. He is the dark mirror of Batman: He can win if he doesn't have time to plan.
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At least Deadpool has his fighting skills and regen in addition to being bat@#$% insane. The Joker is just crazy. That's it. Nothing else.
And like I've said before, this wouldn't be an issue, (to me, anyway) if the comics didn't amp up the Joker's body count to ridiculous levels and stick to the weak defense that "Jokah so cah-razy!" he gets away with it.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405