Can Batman be held responsible for the Joker's murders?
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2010-08-12 10:37 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
I'll play Devil's advocate.
Batman, by spending a vast majority of his free time risking his life to defend the public, shows that he values the lives of the many over his own life and pursuit of happiness.
The Joker has always been a threat to their lives. He has also escaped so many times that Batman must know it is a high probability that he will escape again. Either that or he is Einstein definition of insane (repeating the same action expecting different results).
If he knows he will most likely escape and he knows the Joker will try to kill many people again, then he is accepting a risk that many may die.
If his morals stop him, then he values them more than the lives of the many. He does not want to live with the guilt, and is willing to risk lives so that he doesn't have to. A person who truly values the lives of many would kill the Joker, as confinement has become impractical. That would be valuing the lives of many over one's own morality. To do something that may haunt you forever, to condemn yourself so others may live, that is to truly value life. To do anything less requires cowardice (inability to overcome the fear of consequences in this case).
Five word summary: The ends justify the means.
One word summary: Utilitarianism.
If he wants the Joker to escape it is either because he values risking his life (death wish) or he is pursuing happiness.
By any of those conclusions other than insanity, he is at fault - not that he doesn't have a case for insanity. I don't think he is that insane though, he still knows the consequences of his actions.
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That does make one wonder....Joker has survived some pretty serious stuff both in comics and the Batman TAS. |
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Well Joker has this nasty habit of being unkillable, like many of the heroes, so it goes back to that saying, "don't wound what you can't kill, especially if what you can't kill will slaughter you and your entire family by making them literally laugh themselves to death."
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In Death in the Family, Joker gets some gunfire in his stomach and stomach wounds are not to be laughed off (pun not intended)
In Batman/Superman World's Finest at the end Joker is laughing it up as his own grenades bring down the flying wing with him on it, but no body or pieces of a body are found. In a Batman TAS episode, Laughing Fish, it sure looks like that shark got him but we see no body, or pieces or blood.
Then in Tim Burton's Batman movie, Nicholson Joker makes the comment "Haven't you heard of the healing power of laughter?"
Perhaps the chemical dunk that bleached his skin, etc also gave him a healing ability that is in fact tied to laughter? The more he laughs, faster he heals, etc.
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There was an episode of Batman TAS that starts off with Poison Ivy in court and the judge stating "Since you were apprehended by Batman, who is not an agent of the law; the court cannot grant the prosecutions request for life imprisonment. Instead you will be remanded to Arkham Asylum where it is hoped you will complete your rehabilitiation." |
Originally Posted by Agonus
Character shields and author favoritism aside, unpredictability from an otherwise completely human character -should- only go so far. Against low tier characters and hapless citizens? Sure, I'll give you that. Against characters capable of destroying a city block with the equivalent of a wave of their hand? No way.
At least Deadpool has his fighting skills and regen in addition to being bat@#$% insane. The Joker is just crazy. That's it. Nothing else. And like I've said before, this wouldn't be an issue, (to me, anyway) if the comics didn't amp up the Joker's body count to ridiculous levels and stick to the weak defense that "Jokah so cah-razy!" he gets away with it. |
So yes, Batman can stop his rogues gallery, but as he is a vigilante that does seem to impede the courts. Due process, miranda rights, etc. Now if Batman could somehow rig things so that it APPEARS that only the cops stop the Joker's latest scheme and bring him in, then perhaps the courts can order Joker to death row.
As to the villains being scared of the Joker, I doubt Rha's Al Ghul fears Joker. He might be leery of the Joker as it's nearly impossible to predict what Joker will do at any time, but I doubt he fears him.
Also Rha's could for reasons of his own, decide to do what he feels would be a favor to Batman. Rha's could easily arrange the termination of the Joker. He could launch some grand scheme to keep Batman busy, and at the same time send some of his best hit squads to Arkham and turn Joker into swiss cheese with massive gunfire and then leave a note on Joker's corpse; "Dear Batman, a gift for you. Something that I know you always wanted to do, but could never do. Truly, this makes you the better man than I. Sincerely, Rha's Al Ghul."
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Not as bad as in the Under the Hood arc, where he actually shoots and sets off a bunch of explosives he's holding onto, and the blast destroys the building he's in, but he survives somehow.
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Originally Posted by Nericus
That does make one wonder....Joker has survived some pretty serious stuff both in comics and the Batman TAS.
In Death in the Family, Joker gets some gunfire in his stomach and stomach wounds are not to be laughed off (pun not intended) In Batman/Superman World's Finest at the end Joker is laughing it up as his own grenades bring down the flying wing with him on it, but no body or pieces of a body are found. In a Batman TAS episode, Laughing Fish, it sure looks like that shark got him but we see no body, or pieces or blood. Then in Tim Burton's Batman movie, Nicholson Joker makes the comment "Haven't you heard of the healing power of laughter?" Perhaps the chemical dunk that bleached his skin, etc also gave him a healing ability that is in fact tied to laughter? The more he laughs, faster he heals, etc. |
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
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ummm no...|
Originally Posted by Lastjustice
That's really only true recently.(Which it seems be more of a Ben 10 kill policy. If you're human or human looking he won't off you. Aliens, monsters, and clones on the other hand he has killed even in recent years. Such as the most recent shooting an undead Darkseid.) Batman had a much looser kill policy prior to the 90s/ late 80s. He wouldn't jump thru his butt to stop people from dying as he does now. If some goon brought death upon themselves he'd let them go down with the ship. (which he does in the animated universe as well as he left the Joker to his own devices plenty of times. Just the Joker always manages to endure.) If he was backed into a corner he'd do what he had to do; similarly to Captain America operates. Protect people but at some point enough is enough. Some people are just too much of a liability to the public to save even if they can be.
Then came the 90s and all his rogues became full blown psychopaths who slaughter the masses of gotham. So in order for him not to off them all like most of the planet likely would they gave him an extremely rigrid no kill policy. (Which all lackeys his rogues have plot armor so he doesn't accidentally drop any of them using his brutal tactics.) |
During the late 80s and early 90s Batman had the same code as now. If you can prevent death, prevent it. I've never seen Batman(Bruce Wayne) walk away from someone he could have saved, villain or hero.
In fact, this is one of the things that makes him worry about Todd, that he might have actually had time to save that criminal and didn't AND the reason that is given for why Azrael needs to be taken down. Because he let Abettoir die.
As far as Joker escaping so much. I think you guys are reading a different book. In 400ish issues between 87 and 96 Joker has appeared 6 times I clearly recall. The death of Jason Todd and the killing joke, Right after as an ambassador, Knight Fall, Knight Saga as a "director", LotDK's retelling of Batman's first encounter with Joker, and Robin encountering Joker for the first time alone. Killer Croc, Penguin, Two-Face, Scarecrow, Riddler, Black Mask, and Catwoman appear a lot more than Joker does in the bat family books, but the general public aren't exposed as much to these other characters and Joker is thought to be more Iconic, so he is used more in non-main-comic media.
The first 2 or 3 if you want to separate the death of Todd and the Killing joke, Joker wasn't captured until the Killing joke, He was thought dead after killing Todd, escaped if I recall correctly during the ambassador incident, and then was finally caught and imprisoned after the killing joke.
The 2 Knight Saga stories are the same time he escaped and was released by Bane.
The LotDK encounter was obviously right after his origin and explains why he didn't escape that time.
And the Robin story i forget what happened...
So over the course of 9 years (roughly 4 years in comic time) he escaped twice of his own accord maybe. That's a shameful record when you consider how often other characters escape...I mean Clue Master has escaped or almost escaped 3 or 4 times in that period of time and guy who loves death escaped 3 or 4 times. Penguin has escaped 4 or 5 times. Croc pretty much escapes every tuesday. Catwoman has never been "captured". Two-Face has literally walked out with everyone watching several times. So yeah >.> Joker isn't that big of a deal...
Batman's a tool and secretly wants everyone to die, so he uses the Joker as a weapon.
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That's nonsense and used as a explanation to kids.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
There was an episode of Batman TAS that starts off with Poison Ivy in court and the judge stating "Since you were apprehended by Batman, who is not an agent of the law; the court cannot grant the prosecutions request for life imprisonment. Instead you will be remanded to Arkham Asylum where it is hoped you will complete your rehabilitiation."
So yes, Batman can stop his rogues gallery, but as he is a vigilante that does seem to impede the courts. Due process, miranda rights, etc. Now if Batman could somehow rig things so that it APPEARS that only the cops stop the Joker's latest scheme and bring him in, then perhaps the courts can order Joker to death row. |
Batman has the right to detain and make a citizen's arrest anyone he feels.
The problem with Batman is that the evidence can be considered questionable, but more times than not the evidence is in plain site and well known. The cops do their own investigation and Batman brings them down. After the Police get there they read them their rights and it's fully legal.
Batman in the strictest sense of the word is only partially a Vigilante, in that he trespasses, semi-tortures, and breaks speeding laws, as well as probably several building ordinance about standing and swinging on roofs or some such thing even though he probably owns most if not all of those buildings. When it comes to actually taking down criminals he isn't a vigilante. He's only be a vigilante if he went above what was legally allowed for a citizen to do to someone they are in a fight with which he never does.
Also... most of the criminals the books focus on nowadays are already supposed to be in arkham and they are just getting tried for other stuff... but no matter what they have to serve their first sentence and that is in Arkham ^.^
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Well, the first 3 words are pretty much correct |
Originally Posted by ObiWan
Batman's a tool and secretly wants everyone to die, so he uses the Joker as a weapon.
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@Golden Girl
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Tim caught him and took him down, all by himself, as a rookie. *sniff* makes a bat-mentor proud. |
Originally Posted by Durakken
And the Robin story i forget what happened...
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In regards to the 'can Batman be blamed for the Joker's murders', no. He didn't break Joker out, he didn't give Joker the weapons, he didn't sit just sit and watch as Joker killed people. So, no.
I found this interesting:
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You have a very different conception of Batman from the one comics, movies, and books (the novelization of Knightfall) have given me. Some heroes are law-and-order types, but not Batman; he's always presented as serving a "higher" moral code, which more or less amounts to "no one should ever be killed." As he's been presented to me, Batman would refuse to hand over anyone to the authorities if there was the slightest possibility that person might end up executed, simply because the entire point of Batman and his stories is that Killing Is Always Wrong, No Matter What The Circumstance, Even If It's An Accident, Let Alone Intentional. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see a story about Batman breaking a supervillain out of a death row-type situation. Does anyone know if there's ever been a story like that?|
Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
Batman insists on stopping Joker and handing him over to the authorities, who arrest him and give him a fair trial. I'm sure Batman would be fine with it if they gave Joker the death sentance ...
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As you might guess from the tone of the preceding paragraph, I don't much care for the character of Batman.
That said, blaming him for another character's misdeeds is even sillier than his own preachiness.
In my opinion, it just isn't his fault. Everyone draws this line in a different place. A psychologist who studies legal systems once noted that while science is deterministic (his example was a psychologist recognizing other people's behavior as affecting a defendant's actions), law emphasizes the free will and responsiblity of individual actors. As much as I like to criticize legal philosophy, I think this is one point where it got things right. Your Mileage May (Will) Vary.
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I don't get that vibe off of him at all. I think Batman wouldn't object if Joker got the death penalty.|
Originally Posted by Olantern
I found this interesting:
You have a very different conception of Batman from the one comics, movies, and books (the novelization of Knightfall) have given me. Some heroes are law-and-order types, but not Batman; he's always presented as serving a "higher" moral code, which more or less amounts to "no one should ever be killed." As he's been presented to me, Batman would refuse to hand over anyone to the authorities if there was the slightest possibility that person might end up executed, simply because the entire point of Batman and his stories is that Killing Is Always Wrong, No Matter What The Circumstance, Even If It's An Accident, Let Alone Intentional. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see a story about Batman breaking a supervillain out of a death row-type situation. Does anyone know if there's ever been a story like that? As you might guess from the tone of the preceding paragraph, I don't much care for the character of Batman. That said, blaming him for another character's misdeeds is even sillier than his own preachiness. In my opinion, it just isn't his fault. Everyone draws this line in a different place. A psychologist who studies legal systems once noted that while science is deterministic (his example was a psychologist recognizing other people's behavior as affecting a defendant's actions), law emphasizes the free will and responsiblity of individual actors. As much as I like to criticize legal philosophy, I think this is one point where it got things right. Your Mileage May (Will) Vary. |
However, your post reminds me of an issue of Batgirl in which she set off to make sure that absolutely no one died in Gotham for one night, the anniversary of the first time she killed someone as a girl. This included her trying to stop an execution that was scheduled that night, but the mother of one of the inmate's victim's got Batgirl's attention and basically told her that his death would be justice. I'm sure the explanation was more elaborate and emotional than that, but it just makes me think that Batgirl may have had that notion in her head at some point, but Batman would likely have moved on from that line of thinking.
After all, you don't see Batman being pissed about police officers or soldiers killing in self-defense all the time.
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
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Do you not read what I said? Or just people so hard up to correct me at all cost?| During the late 80s and early 90s Batman had the same code as now. If you can prevent death, prevent it. I've never seen Batman(Bruce Wayne) walk away from someone he could have saved, villain or hero. |
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| Batman had a much looser kill policy prior to the 90s/ late 80s. |
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Funny, every time I've seen Joker escape certain death (the Deadshot hit being a prime example), it's been due to pure dumb luck. Any metahuman (& a few non-metahumans) should have little trouble eliminating Joker.
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Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
While I certainly agree that the Joker and Batman are overhyped to a degree, they all do have a reason to be scared of the Joker: He's smarter than all of them. Watch any movie that has a multitude of villains (World's Finest, Under the Red Hood, Dark Knight). The Joker will always come out on top, and not just because of plot armor. Much like Jeremiah Berek of 7th Sea, the fact that he's so far out there grants him outside thinking that allows him to access strategies most other people can't conceive. He is the dark mirror of Batman: He can win if he doesn't have time to plan.
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"They've got us surrounded again, the poor bastards." - General Creighton W. Abrams
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I also meant to cover that...|
Originally Posted by Lastjustice
Do you not read what I said? Or just people so hard up to correct me at all cost?
Meaning before that time his kill policy wasnt the same before that time. You wanna correct me fine, said prior to that era was when his extreme no kill policy started.(and his rogues actually started getting much higher body counts as they were mostly just crooks like the flash's rogues were before then.) He began the Dark Knight era during the late 80s which has for most part continued to the present. |
That is highly unlikely when you consider that the CCA was in effect and had most of that banned from 1954 till the mid 80s so if anything the No killing rule was not only for batman but was pretty much for every character. Maybe you are talking about a very brief period between say 83 and 87 but that is hardly a blip on the radar of a 75 year old character.
But then that can't be right either because batman getting his darkness back is largely attributed to The Dark Knight Returns which was released in Feb-Jun of 86. Are you trying to make the case that between July and December Batman was that much more darker than he was in the beginning of 87? Yeah, I don't buy it.
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Here's a scenario: the next of kin of many of Joker's victims if not all of them decide to pool their finances to hire someone like Deadshot or Deathstroke for the sole purpose of killing the Joker. |
Originally Posted by Comeuppance
Funny, every time I've seen Joker escape certain death (the Deadshot hit being a prime example), it's been due to pure dumb luck. Any metahuman (& a few non-metahumans) should have little trouble eliminating Joker.
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Now neither Deadshot or Deathstroke strike me as idiots so they should realize that would mean hunting the Joker in Gotham City which will inevitably bring in the Batman. Would Batman attempt to stop them? Or would Batman decide that it's these guys that are doing the killing, not me and it IS the Joker after all.
I'm confident that Batman would stop them. OR the fight might occur with Joker nearby watching, bound and gagged but enjoying how Batman is so conflicted and then the assassin gets a lucky shot off that Batman dodges but it kills the Joker. How guilty would Batman feel about that? Can't say he didn't try to stop them, but he may have doubts about whether he allowed that kill shot to happen.
Here's another scenario: Joker has finally pushed Batman too far, and Batman decides that it's time the Joker was dealt with for good. BUT after he brutally pummels the Joker near to death he then pulls out a device that he obtained and zaps the Joker and the Joker appears to be disintegrated......everyone thinks Batman has finally crossed the line until he reveals that its Superman's Phantom Zone projector and that Joker is now forever in the Phantom Zone. Not dead, eternally banished and can do no harm. A prison that Joker is unlikely to ever escape.
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Well that kinda already happened when Jason Todd came back and tried to kill Joker. Batman still stepped in.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
Here's a scenario: the next of kin of many of Joker's victims if not all of them decide to pool their finances to hire someone like Deadshot or Deathstroke for the sole purpose of killing the Joker.
Now neither Deadshot or Deathstroke strike me as idiots so they should realize that would mean hunting the Joker in Gotham City which will inevitably bring in the Batman. Would Batman attempt to stop them? Or would Batman decide that it's these guys that are doing the killing, not me and it IS the Joker after all. I'm confident that Batman would stop them. OR the fight might occur with Joker nearby watching, bound and gagged but enjoying how Batman is so conflicted and then the assassin gets a lucky shot off that Batman dodges but it kills the Joker. How guilty would Batman feel about that? Can't say he didn't try to stop them, but he may have doubts about whether he allowed that kill shot to happen. |
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| Here's another scenario: Joker has finally pushed Batman too far, and Batman decides that it's time the Joker was dealt with for good. BUT after he brutally pummels the Joker near to death he then pulls out a device that he obtained and zaps the Joker and the Joker appears to be disintegrated......everyone thinks Batman has finally crossed the line until he reveals that its Superman's Phantom Zone projector and that Joker is now forever in the Phantom Zone. Not dead, eternally banished and can do no harm. A prison that Joker is unlikely to ever escape. |
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
Batman had gone off the deep end a bit during the ambassador Joker issue and it was made out to look like if Batman had his way he'd have killed Joker right then and there. However, Superman stepped in and in the end he didn't kill Joker...
There have also been times when Robin did stop Bruce, if I remember correctly, because he was beating someone down and nearly killing them...seemingly losing it.
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::Raises hand::|
Originally Posted by Nylonus
How many of us would have our "Heroes" play judge, jury and executioner to say someone like Dr. Vhaz? If given that moral choice on a ture hero would you "arrest" or "murder"? And yes i do mean murder, in the fact that your foe has given up and ready to surrender.
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If the situation demands it, I'd break the law and murder a villian in cold blood. One could argue that it would make me no different from the vilian I just wasted, but I'd argue in a case like that the results far outweigh whatever legal code or process I would have been bound to (to put things generally) or maybe I've just watched 300 to damn many times
------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
If I recall correctly, ever since No Man's Land we can blame the Joker's continued existence on Commissioner Gordon.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Yeah but there's been times since then where Batman has had the opportunity to kill or let someone else kill Joker, specifically in the Hush and Under the Hood arcs.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
If I recall correctly, ever since No Man's Land we can blame the Joker's continued existence on Commissioner Gordon.
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- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
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While I typically disagree with your moral code, I probably would arrest Dr. V as well (I guess I technically did...). He never struck me as evil, just horribly misguided. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I'd arrest Dr. V - I'd never kill him.
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Joker strikes me as generic "evil".
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As noted, however, the Batman is crazy. Commissioner Gordon had the Joker in his sights and he wanted to kill him. They were surrounded by cops who wouldn't have lifted a finger to stop him, and most importantly even the Batman was prepared to stand by and let it happen for a change.
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Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Yeah but there's been times since then where Batman has had the opportunity to kill or let someone else kill Joker, specifically in the Hush and Under the Hood arcs.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Oh please. Supergirl and drunken Peter O'Toole managed it in about 15 minutes (well drunken Peter O'Toole didn't but he came darn close for someone that wasted).
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Originally Posted by Nericus
Here's a scenario: the next of kin of many of Joker's victims if not all of them decide to pool their finances to hire someone like Deadshot or Deathstroke for the sole purpose of killing the Joker.
Now neither Deadshot or Deathstroke strike me as idiots so they should realize that would mean hunting the Joker in Gotham City which will inevitably bring in the Batman. Would Batman attempt to stop them? Or would Batman decide that it's these guys that are doing the killing, not me and it IS the Joker after all. I'm confident that Batman would stop them. OR the fight might occur with Joker nearby watching, bound and gagged but enjoying how Batman is so conflicted and then the assassin gets a lucky shot off that Batman dodges but it kills the Joker. How guilty would Batman feel about that? Can't say he didn't try to stop them, but he may have doubts about whether he allowed that kill shot to happen. Here's another scenario: Joker has finally pushed Batman too far, and Batman decides that it's time the Joker was dealt with for good. BUT after he brutally pummels the Joker near to death he then pulls out a device that he obtained and zaps the Joker and the Joker appears to be disintegrated......everyone thinks Batman has finally crossed the line until he reveals that its Superman's Phantom Zone projector and that Joker is now forever in the Phantom Zone. Not dead, eternally banished and can do no harm. A prison that Joker is unlikely to ever escape. |
Obviously the answer is yes provided the Batman is allowed time to prepare.
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