So, that's why teams are scarce villain-side
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2010-06-15 18:02 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Recluse isn't. He's an avatar for one. For that matter, who says a PC isn't? You made the claim you can be a Thor-like hero. Or does that only apply to outlier combos and builds?|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
When was Red Skull a god?
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| Those sound like the Rogue Isles Villains. |
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Actually, they ARE on the Statesman AND the Khan TF, and they are still just bosses.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Until a dev wants to use one on a TF and suddenly they become 8 times more powerful. Kind of like the Kahn TF.
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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It's not only metagame.|
Originally Posted by Disappearing Girl
I'm still struggling to see the issue.
It seems you want the player behind the character to feel super heroic. Its more metagame that you want to fight AVs like they are EBs without making them EBs. Batman doesnt get to choose the level of power his foes have. He just fights them. Behind the scenes the writers scale the foe. I'm sure squirrel girl fighst Dr Doom as a EB not AV . The downgrade to EB is a behind the scenes way of allowing your character to fight the uber foes. |
No choice exists on TFs. That's part of what I'm saying. You can say you fought Silver Mantis all you like (as and EB in the RWZ arc), but the second you run a STF you're kicked down to D-list hero who can't take her. That's not behind the scenes. That's very much in your face like a flashing neon sign.
There's no reason that has to happen. I've discussed alternatives to that. The devs have occasionally used alternatives, but the old content still works that way and they keep going back to the AV well and busting our heroes down the pecking order in new content too.
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| Using roleplaying lore & comic examples for a metagaming concept doesnt seem right. Because you can solo Lord recluse etc. |
What I'm saying is three things:
-The pecking order (or tiers, whatever you want to call it) shouldn't be as mutable as it is due to the EB/AV conversion. That's the equivalent of bad, inconsistant writing.
-Player characters at the level cap should as a whole, be higher in the pecking order than they are currently. The flavour text says we're supposed to be peers of Recluse's patrons/the Freedom Phalanx, but the true mechanics and design bust us down to below the level of the Vindicator sidekicks or even C-listers like Arbiter Sands.
-The overall difficulty of the game need not change. But instead of bloating up an enemy's stats when he faces a team, the devs should get creative and provide challenge without depowering our heroes on TFs.
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On the STF they're bosses.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Actually, they ARE on the Statesman AND the Khan TF, and they are still just bosses.
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On the Khan TF they are EBs.
Before you make a joke about how it looks like their respec trial made them more powerful, no I don't like the inconsistency in those examples, either, which is why I brought up the TF.
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Well, Recluse has a reason to be badder than everyone except Statesman. As I understand the game story, they opened the world to powers again. So even if your concept is Thor, your power/manifestation/avatar is being routed <b>through</b> those two.
Some of this seems unfixable. You can't make Batman villains and Superman villains without getting two different games. Co* solves this by making everything kind of level.
I can only hope the Incarnate system allows different trees of Uberness. Instead of everyone beating up Mako, fer instance, the Superman wannabe with Incarnate Strength can. The Batman wannabe gets pounded, same as always--and if he's cheated, then he's not a Batman wannabe anymore, is he? He's composite Superman...
My pet peeve is people who refuse to acknowledge it when I tell them my character has unlimited power. If I rp attack them they are of course disintegrated beyond the ability of any hospital or magic to restore. Yet despite this they refuse to delete their characters and still keep playing them as if nothing happened. ~Mandu, 07-16-2010
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in the barracuda sf, Holo Man (one of the generic paragon heroes) is an EB as well, but that doesnt exactly make him harder, EB and boss are nigh identical except one has twice as much hp|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
On the STF they're bosses.
On the Khan TF they are EBs. Before you make a joke about how it looks like their respec trial made them more powerful, no I don't like the inconsistency in those examples, either, which is why I brought up the TF. . |
after fighting enough AVs in the game, i feel most of them are fairly easy, me and a friend usually duo the mender silos sf with AVs turned on and only takes us about an hour to do the whole sf
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I was never into the whole AV required team-up thing either, that's why I usually fight things as EBs unless I'm being socialable and teaming. I dunno, it's just game mechanics, so fighting them as EBs doesn't really feel like watering them down to me, it feels more the pace of what I'd hope for from an epic AV battle (rather than the 10 minute slugfest and lightshow of whacking on a bag of HP). Thankfully, that's now possible, and I don't have to feel 'subpar' to all these 'lesser' signature characters.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
She pretty much sums up my gripes about mission design, the AV mechanic and teaming in this game.
Superheroes don't group up to curbstomp Rainbow Raider. But at 50 we're expected to group up and fight C-listers like Abriter Sands. In the high levels it does cheapen heores to have to team up to take on the likes of Bobcat or Silver Mantis. They're sidekicks for crying out loud. They're not giant meteors. They're not 'world ender' beings like Galactus, Thanos or even Magneto. The reverse holds true for villains. I agree with her. It's embarrassing that aside from a few outlier builds, player heroes and villains at the level cap aren't even equal to the game's C-listers at their true power levels without them being watered down to EBs. . |
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It doesn't work like that, at least with what they've said on the subject. Unless they retcon everything with the Incarnate system. On the contrary in fact, in i12 they were continuing to suggest a common sorce for all powers, even for Natural origins. Even if you don't have 'powers' you're super powered by the power matrix in question. That plays even more into the stuff from the first novel. So, take from that what you will.|
Originally Posted by Ashtoreth_NA
Well, Recluse has a reason to be badder than everyone except Statesman. As I understand the game story, they opened the world to powers again. So even if your concept is Thor, your power/manifestation/avatar is being routed <b>through</b> those two.
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| Some of this seems unfixable. You can't make Batman villains and Superman villains without getting two different games. Co* solves this by making everything kind of level. |
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| I can only hope the Incarnate system allows different trees of Uberness. Instead of everyone beating up Mako, fer instance, the Superman wannabe with Incarnate Strength can. The Batman wannabe gets pounded, same as always--and if he's cheated, then he's not a Batman wannabe anymore, is he? He's composite Superman... |
:P
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I have to disagree. Robin (like Batman and Nightwing before him) started off as a street-level hero (when he started soloing), but as time went on, he could technically be classified as city-level. Batman started on the streets, but eventually moved on to patrolling the entire city. Heck, some of Robin's story arcs have him going to other countries, and sometimes other planets. (When with the Titans).|
Originally Posted by Agonus
Eh, even Grodd should be too much for Robin to handle. Grodd is supposed to be a match for the Flash, and a fight between those two should be a good bit beyond anything Robin can take.
To keep with the analogies, Robin is a street level hero. He can fight street level villains (insert non-powered Batman villain here) with no problem. To get past the sidekick stigma, even Batman has to call in help from time to time against higher level threats. Or leave things like Bizarro going on a rampage to Superman or the JLA. |
Street-level should just be reserved to heroes who are just beginning their careers, as most of them do move past that.
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It appears to me that Mr. Butane would rather play a comic book than an MMO, which is perfectly understandable, but I struggle to see the relevance here.
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So do the AVs. With specific exceptions, AVs are surrounded by a swarm of bosses, lieutenants, and minions.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
There's a reason when the Red Skull shows up in the Avengers that be brings a team with him
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
One thing I never understood was why Sands/Nocturne/Castello were AVs in Faultline. Sure, if you're soloing, they're EBs, but they still have the Purple Triangles of Doom betraying their actual nature.
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Okay, for another example: I have a fire/fire scrapper who I want to always be able to fight Tsoo. So, how do I get this? Turning off XP. Due to concept, he's perpetually stuck at 28, because that's the last level that Tsoo turn up in radio missions, except for bank robberies from the radio, and after that, there's only Tsoo in Talos Safeguards after which, they disappear. So, I can still team up with high levels, and be SSK'ed up, and keep at the "street level". |
Originally Posted by Nightphall
I have to disagree. Robin (like Batman and Nightwing before him) started off as a street-level hero (when he started soloing), but as time went on, he could technically be classified as city-level. Batman started on the streets, but eventually moved on to patrolling the entire city. Heck, some of Robin's story arcs have him going to other countries, and sometimes other planets. (When with the Titans).
Street-level should just be reserved to heroes who are just beginning their careers, as most of them do move past that. |
I do however agree with Johnny Butane on the whole Mynx and the Vindicators are a little over powered. But, I also can see that this game is an MMO.
Thankfully, there's always the opportunity to present most of the Vindicators as they truly should be with the MA, just copy the costume and put them at whatever level/difficulty that you want. Granted, they won't all look exactly right as some of them have unique items/parts. But, at least, you can "fix" them so that they're consistent with the power level that they really should be.
And blah blah blah, the MA is as real as I say it is.
This whole thread just makes me lol.
(V)Thomas Peterson -- The Plain Walker(H)
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I mean Street Level more as a measurement of power output, not the territory they cover. It's an informal thing a lot of geek sites use, and there's a lot of variations and levels to it.
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Originally Posted by Nightphall
I have to disagree. Robin (like Batman and Nightwing before him) started off as a street-level hero (when he started soloing), but as time went on, he could technically be classified as city-level. Batman started on the streets, but eventually moved on to patrolling the entire city. Heck, some of Robin's story arcs have him going to other countries, and sometimes other planets. (When with the Titans).
Street-level should just be reserved to heroes who are just beginning their careers, as most of them do move past that. |
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
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The relevance is right in the comic.|
Originally Posted by Camper
but I struggle to see the relevance here.
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Good super heroes team up to deal with stuff like meteors. They don't get together to curbstomp Rainbow Raider, Arbiter Sands or Black Scorpion's sidekick.
It's just as lame having player villains have to do the same to the NPC heroes
It cheapens our characters and reinforces the fact that we're 4th string, sitting well below not only the Phalanx and Recluse's Inner Circle, but their sidekicks as well, and even below nobodies like Arbiter Sands and Shadow Spider.
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I like how a thread that as supposed to be a comedic one, gets turned into an argument because JB decided to ***** and moan.
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If it makes you feel any better, I think the design that renders our heroes 1/8th all of the signature characters is a joke.|
Originally Posted by Atheism
I like how a thread that as supposed to be a comedic one, gets turned into an argument because JB decided to ***** and moan.
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I don't have an army of chimps for you, how about a single army chimp instead?|
Originally Posted by Blunt_Trauma
I want an Army of Evil Chimps
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Sig of Black Mercenary
What else do you want?
You can't make Thor or Iron Man or Robin or even Stilt Man in this game. It would be an IP violation and get generic'd.
Think of CoH as its own universe, with its own constraints and rules. It makes everything make more sense then.
-Mod8-
If you are using Latin in your post you are probably trolling
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[QUOTE=Agonus;2957462]I don't think he wants anyone "dragged" down to Captain America's level. But you certainly seem to want everyone on Thor's level. Superheroes come in tiers and have since this stuff started pretty much.
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And because of the mechanics, this game caters exclusively to the lowest tiers. The tier that the Mystery Men and Power Pack is on.
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