So, that's why teams are scarce villain-side
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2010-06-15 18:02 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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This is exactly what ive been saying forever about this game, We are City of Sidekicks at best! Teaming to take down Silver Mantis or Bobcat is a damn shame, this game could be soooo much better. Champions sucks and you know that Cryptic had a hand in this game, hopefully DCO will be better and you will FEEL like a Superhero and a Super Sidekick!
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
She pretty much sums up my gripes about mission design, the AV mechanic and teaming in this game.
Superheroes don't group up to curbstomp Rainbow Raider. But at 50 we're expected to group up and fight C-listers like Abriter Sands. In the high levels it does cheapen heores to have to team up to take on the likes of Bobcat or Silver Mantis. They're sidekicks for crying out loud. They're not giant meteors. They're not 'world ender' beings like Galactus, Thanos or even Magneto. The reverse holds true for villains. I agree with her. It's embarrassing that aside from a few outlier builds, player heroes and villains at the level cap aren't even equal to the game's C-listers at their true power levels without them being watered down to EBs. . |
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Not true, go to RV a TRY a take on a Hero or Villlain....DEAD! Also, I remember when the Dev's had them listed at lvl 54 on info, not anymore. WHY? Story arcs have change to for players that don't like to team all the time, thats why SOME toons can can on a Villain or hero and win.
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Originally Posted by Agonus
Players already have the tools to bring their own toons up to the level of soloing AVs. But all the ATs and NPCs are not equal. AV Ghost Widow gets taken out by an EB Longbow Warden, for example.
And until the Devs bring in PCs to take the place of the Freedom Phalanx or Arachnos or whoever, I think NPCs (the stronger ones, anyway) -should- be a few levels above the max a PC can attain. And for that matter, my take on this is that the lower level versions of the various NPCs you face are not up to full strength for any one of a number of in story reasons. They're either not ready to fight you, don't want to fight you, they've been depowered, they're holding back, or whatever. When you finally face them as an AV or Hero, that's when it's the knock-down, drag-out, take no prisoners fight. And as far as gameplay goes, I like soloing once in a while. I also rarely keep my toons maxed out at each and every level. I like having the option of having manageable versions of the various Big Gun NPCs I can face. |
I'm happy with being a "sidekick" considering how terrific this MMO is.
Really, if you want to be the one to go rescue the world from a meteor or the giant monster all by your lonesome, there are some fine single-player options out there for you.
As for Wonderella . . . Beggar! You shal rue the day you introduced this community to her mighty mightiness of drunken and apathetic might! Rue, I tell you!
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That's variety in the game design. Which I think is a bonus. The Devs don't want all the ATs to be capable of the same things. If you want a character that's powerful more often than not in the game mechanics, go play a Scrapper or Mastermind.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
...that the majority of PCs are not able to win. The ones that are, are outlier power set combos and builds. That's my point. ...
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Originally Posted by Purge
Not true, go to RV a TRY a take on a Hero or Villlain....DEAD! ...
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*looks around*
Eiko! This is your thing!
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
*snips all the whinging going on above*
THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!
*sigh*
Kung Ru - 50++ MA/Regen Scrapper
Kalleesta - 50 Necro/Dark MM
Hidden Justice - 44 Kin/Psy Defender
Altaholic
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It's not just comics, there's variety in power level in comics as well. The way I read Johnny's post, it seems like he's looking for the comic where Robin (I.E. the Natural MA/SR scrapper) knocks out Galactus with one punch.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
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The disconnect seems to be where the power level of the AVs we face. In my opinion, just about the only AV we face that's over powered would be Sands, and only in the STF. Every other Villain can be justified as a serious threat. Yes, even Dr. Aeon in the same Task Force, given that he's packing the ability to manipulate time build in to his battle armor at that point.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
I don't read it as Robin taking on Galcatus. I see Johnny's post more as Robin being able to fight Gorilla Grodd and Win. Which doesn't seem like too far a stretch for me.
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Eh, even Grodd should be too much for Robin to handle. Grodd is supposed to be a match for the Flash, and a fight between those two should be a good bit beyond anything Robin can take.|
Originally Posted by DMystic
I don't read it as Robin taking on Galcatus. I see Johnny's post more as Robin being able to fight Gorilla Grodd and Win. Which doesn't seem like too far a stretch for me.
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To keep with the analogies, Robin is a street level hero. He can fight street level villains (insert non-powered Batman villain here) with no problem. To get past the sidekick stigma, even Batman has to call in help from time to time against higher level threats. Or leave things like Bizarro going on a rampage to Superman or the JLA.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
I think it's worth noting how the comic can be read as the villains' rampant egotism being used against them to deny them an easy victory. That was my initial reading, in fact, and it took the responses of others to see that it has a different interpretation under the assumption that concern over personal reputation is a serious objection.
Today I learned I am relatively humble.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Oh look, Johnny_Butane having a tantrum, wanting to be moar powerful. How unusual.
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My question is, why is he comparing our heroes to Robin in the first place? The fact that he did just proves my point about this being City of Wanna-bes/Sidekicks.|
Originally Posted by DMystic
I don't read it as Robin taking on Galcatus. I see Johnny's post more as Robin being able to fight Gorilla Grodd and Win. Which doesn't seem like too far a stretch for me.
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Heck, you can't even say we're on par with the young heroes in the CoH universe. Ms. Liberty is the 'Robin' in this game. The rest of the Vindicators can be compared to the Titans. I'd like to see a PC MA/Inv Scrapper take her down without the EB gimping.
We aren't even the second string. We're below Robin and the Titans.
We're the Power Pack, at best.
The flavour text can tell you all it wants that you are the peer of Recluse's patrons. By extension, that would mean player heroes are supposed to be the peers of the Phalanx.
But that means jack because the very mechanics of the game say otherwise. I don't really care if a handful of outlier combos built for that specific task can take down some of the AVs in the game. That misses the point entirely.
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I second the chimps Masterminds.|
Originally Posted by Blunt_Trauma
I want an Army of Evil Chimps
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Tier 1 - Chimpanzees
Tier 2 - Orangutans/Baboons?
Tier 3 - 800 lb Gorilla
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Because he was the first natural Hero that came to mind. You can substitute Nightwing or Green Arrow or even the Question and the point is the same. Not everyone that plays this wants to be Superman, some of us prefer Heroes that have actual challenges to face.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
My question is, why is he comparing our heroes to Robin in the first place?
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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After thinking about it for a bit, you're actually right. Rularuu would be closer to Galactus. A better example would be Thanos (death related god-like being) and the Infinity Gauntlet (item of near infinite power; I.E. the Towers) Going by Johnny's example, with the Gauntlet he's a team worthy challenge. Without it, he should punk out to Spiderman one-on-one.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
I don't read it as Robin taking on Galcatus. I see Johnny's post more as Robin being able to fight Gorilla Grodd and Win. Which doesn't seem like too far a stretch for me.
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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You seem to equate no powers with beinng inept and weak, and having powers with 'no challenge'. That's your hang up, not mine.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
You can substitute Nightwing or Green Arrow or even the Question and the point is the same.
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All three of those characters are capabable of dealing with the super villains they fight. Green Arrow doesn't call up the JLA to curbstomp Merlyn.
You say it's not fair to expect everyone to be Thor, but you think everyone should be dragged down to "Captain America's level".
That's your rationale.
I think Cap and Batman are fully capable of performing at the level as the rest of the JLA or Avengers. 40 years of stories agree. Having Cap and Bats fight giant robots and powered villains is impressive. Having Thor or Wonder Woman not be able to is sad.
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| Not everyone that plays this wants to be Superman, some of us prefer Heroes that have actual challenges to face. |
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Instead, you have a game where your scrapper can take out Galactus, but Superman needs a team of other Supermen to do the same. Congratulations!|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Because he was the first natural Hero that came to mind. You can substitute Nightwing or Green Arrow or even the Question and the point is the same. Not everyone that plays this wants to be Superman, some of us prefer Heroes that have actual challenges to face.
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About the Giant Monster thing, that's old hat in comic books. So-and-so is a regular arch-villain til he stole THE POWER COSMIC, went mad, and became UBER. Now he can't even be fought directly except as a distraction while so-and-so gets a MacGuffin that'll take away his power/send him to another dimension, etc.
My pet peeve is people who refuse to acknowledge it when I tell them my character has unlimited power. If I rp attack them they are of course disintegrated beyond the ability of any hospital or magic to restore. Yet despite this they refuse to delete their characters and still keep playing them as if nothing happened. ~Mandu, 07-16-2010
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No, my rationale is, the game lets you be Thor NOW, but you can also play as Cap if you want. You even mention that there are ways for people to solo AVs at full power. These are the Thor Heroes.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
You say it's not fair to expect everyone to be Thor, but you think everyone should be dragged down to "Captain America's level".
That's your rationale. |
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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A better example is equating Galactus to Hamidon. Devouring Earth...World Devourer...hello?|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
After thinking about it for a bit, you're actually right. Rularuu would be closer to Galactus.
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| Going by Johnny's example, with the Gauntlet he's a team worthy challenge. Without it, he should punk out to Spiderman one-on-one. |
Recluse being buffed by the towers is like Red Skull empowered by the Cosmic Cube. Any other day, Captain America can win against him.
Not in this game. By this game's mechanics, Cap wouldn't be able to solo the actual Red Skull ever, just make due with a gimped EB robot simulation. Nor would he be able to fight Toad. Or Stilt Man. Or the Walrus.
There's a reason when the Red Skull shows up in the Avengers that be brings a team with him, or a secret weapon. He doesn't suddenly become eight times more powerful with no reason, unless the writer is terrible. Why should CoH have that kind of terrible writing?
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Thor fights Frost Giants and other monsters. CoH has "rock giants" and "crystal giants".|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
No, my rationale is, the game lets you be Thor NOW, but you can also play as Cap if you want. You even mention that there are ways for people to solo AVs at full power. These are the Thor Heroes.
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You find me a WM/Inv or WM/WP Tanker that can solo one of the DE Crystal Titans, and then come back and tell me you can 'be Thor'.
Better yet, you find me an Nrg/Nrg or Nrg/Dev Blaster that can take down Kronos solo and then tell me you can be Iron Man.
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Shhh! All ATs are created equal. Some are more equal than others.|
Originally Posted by Ashtoreth_NA
Instead, you have a game where your scrapper can take out Galactus, but Superman needs a team of other Supermen to do the same. Congratulations!
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Besides, Scrappers pay for that ability to do team content solo by not being as sought after by teams...which they don't really need...
I mean that's fair and balanced, right?
:P
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I don't think he wants anyone "dragged" down to Captain America's level. But you certainly seem to want everyone on Thor's level. Superheroes come in tiers and have since this stuff started pretty much.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
You seem to equate no powers with beinng inept and weak, and having powers with 'no challenge'. That's your hang up, not mine.
All three of those characters are capabable of dealing with the super villains they fight. Green Arrow doesn't call up the JLA to curbstomp Merlyn. You say it's not fair to expect everyone to be Thor, but you think everyone should be dragged down to "Captain America's level". That's your rationale. |
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I think Cap and Batman are fully capable of performing at the level as the rest of the JLA or Avengers. 40 years of stories agree. Having Cap and Bats fight giant robots and powered villains is impressive. Having Thor or Wonder Woman not be able to is sad.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I like to have challenges like, oh I dont know, fighting super villains...without them being gimped or me being 1/8 their power level and needing a team to face them regardless if they're Arbiter Sands, Ms. Liberty or Nemesis. And I don't want to be told "your AT/power set isn't allowed to do that because we decided being super strong or having a magic axe isn't as cool as having having negative energy punches or poisonous bile and some thugs".
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B) Just spit it out already, what AT and powersets do you want buffed?
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
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When was Red Skull a god?|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Recluse being buffed by the towers is like Red Skull empowered by the Cosmic Cube. Any other day, Captain America can win against him.
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| Not in this game. By this game's mechanics, Cap wouldn't be able to solo the actual Red Skull ever, just make due with a gimped EB robot simulation. Nor would he be able to fight Toad. Or Stilt Man. Or the Walrus. |
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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Johnny Butane wants Tankers to do more damage. He's infamous for it.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
B) Just spit it out already, what AT and powersets do you want buffed?
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For the record, I have two confirmed AV soloers, one that I've never bothered testing, and one that doesn't beat the AV, but doesn't get beat either.
My Fire/Dark Corruptor and Thugs/Dark MM both are confirmed to be AV killers, largely because /Dark is good at shutting down the mechanic wherein AVs cheat the most, regen.
I haven't tested my Bots/Traps MM against an AV since I finished her build, but soft-capped defences for her and her pets plus Traps debuffs should, in theory, make her capable of it.
My Will/SS Tanker can't take down an AV due to not doing enough damage to overcome their cheating regen, but neither can most AVs take her down through her cheating regen, so at least it's an even fight. Heck, she holds aggro on most GMs without support no problem, for that matter. I can understand why she doesn't have the earth-shattering strength of Superman with that balance in mind.
The Fire/Dark isn't even 50. Otherwise, all my 50s can at least hold their own against AVs, if not take them down.
And, for the record, AVs are not really the "real power" of these characters, in my book. The only two that might actually be naturally AVs are Statesman and Recluse; all the rest are EBs at best, and only cheat up to AV because of game mechanics, not story. It's just one of those things you have to accept - the game cheats. Games always cheat. It's the only way the stupid machines can keep up with us.
I'm still struggling to see the issue.
It seems you want the player behind the character to feel super heroic. Its more metagame that you want to fight AVs like they are EBs without making them EBs.
Batman doesnt get to choose the level of power his foes have. He just fights them. Behind the scenes the writers scale the foe. I'm sure squirrel girl fighst Dr Doom as a EB not AV .
The downgrade to EB is a behind the scenes way of allowing your character to fight the uber foes.
Using roleplaying lore & comic examples for a metagaming concept doesnt seem right. Because you can solo Lord recluse etc.
Of course ymdv.
The game isn't called Power Pack Online or City of Teen Titan Rejects. Playing 4th string to the Phalanx is BS. Better mission design and mechanics can fix that. If someone doesn't want that fixed, perhaps they'd be happier playing a fantasy MMO where they can be a nobody warrior and be commanded by villagers to gather rat tails.
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