Why is Reichsman Reichsman?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-06-02 17:04 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Hitler set Eva Braun on him,
State's weakness is his schnoodle.
@Mechaniker
Official Old Angry German Guy of CoV.
My Characters: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=247787
No betrayal at all. Reichsman was always with the Axis.
From Paragon Wiki:
Description
This Marcus Cole, from an alternate dimension, was a rogue and a mercenary who was exposed to mustard gas during World War I. In search of a cure for the effects of the gas, Marcus discovered the Well of the Furies. He drank from the well and was granted incredible powers. Adopting the persona of Reichsman, Marcus used these powers in the service of the Axis powers on his world, leading them to victory over their foes. When he discovered the existence of another Earth, he traveled there and was defeated and imprisoned by the Freedom Phalanx. Now he's back, and ready for revenge.
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Then that articles is wrong cuz that doesn't follow|
Originally Posted by Godpants
No betrayal at all. Reichsman was always with the Axis.
From Paragon Wiki: Description This Marcus Cole, from an alternate dimension, was a rogue and a mercenary who was exposed to mustard gas during World War I. In search of a cure for the effects of the gas, Marcus discovered the Well of the Furies. He drank from the well and was granted incredible powers. Adopting the persona of Reichsman, Marcus used these powers in the service of the Axis powers on his world, leading them to victory over their foes. When he discovered the existence of another Earth, he traveled there and was defeated and imprisoned by the Freedom Phalanx. Now he's back, and ready for revenge. |
Statesman drank from the Fountain of Zeus in 1930s and returned to America.
World War II happened in the 1940s.
For Cole to have become Reichsman they he would have had to either defected or been Brain Washed... So he's either a tragedy or Cole is shouldn't really be as trusted as he is considering the defection and possible support of Nazi beliefs which is a worse place than Tyrant is.
Man it's almost like other dimensions have different timelines then ours!
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That's not the point... the point is why did he turn to becoming Reichsman? Did he decide not to go back to paragon and decide to help Germany recover...if so how did Nazis come about as a hero helping them out would lessen Hitler's rhetoric. Did he not help oand just chill in Germany or something? Even if he did he would still likely of gotten away from Germany as quick as possible...And what of Recluse?|
Originally Posted by LISAR
Man it's almost like other dimensions have different timelines then ours!
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There is another option... he's trying to work from the inside...
Any way you look at it He's a Tragedy or a Traitor in support of Nazis. There is literally no course of events that could happen that make that not the case. We are either keeping him from helping the good cause, been brainwashed away from being Statesman, or a Traitor in support of Nazi ideals (in other words he said the holocaust was a good thing)
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Bigger question: Who said pre-Reichsman Marcus Cole was on the Allies' side in WWI?
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Originally Posted by Durakken
That's not the point... the point is why did he turn to becoming Reichsman?
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Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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It still requires him or his family defecting... it just makes him an incompetent if he was on Germany's side during WWI... it also requires him to have not heard the propaganda of Hitler and still agree with him.
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
Bigger question: Who said pre-Reichsman Marcus Cole was on the Allies' side in WWI?
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He was a mercenary...He was either paid to be the Nazi Super Soldier or he was a Nazi sympathizer.
He's not our Statesman he does not have the same past just a similar genetic background.
You seem to think him joining Hitler is where the universe differs from ours..in fact does it mention Hitler anywhere in that dimensions information?
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Originally Posted by Durakken
I have read through that arc info, but it strikes me as weird that Reichsman is Reichsman... From what we know of Cole's history this is how his life must've been...
Cole joins the military during WWI Cole becomes incarnate... Cole becomes Statesman... Cole is injured during WWII during d-day. The Axis powers wins. Cole becomes Reichman. This would indicate a betrayal of some sort or a weakness of character in Cole as we know he is "invulnerable" and super strong which means he can more or less take down all of the Axis Army alone... So what caused him to become Reichsman... A staunch patriot that fights for america to becoming the biggest supporter and pretty evil character that is Reichsman. Maybe mind manipulation? Weakness of Character? Cole just likes the Nazis? What are your thoughts? |
A possible history of Axis Earth:
Perhaps like Preitorian Earth, Stefan Richter is out of the picture.
After gaining powers at the Well of the Furies, Cole remains in Europe. Without Stefan giving him a reason to return to America, he lives comfortably for a time.
Meanwhile, without Statesman there to organize the heroes, America is at the mercy of Nemesis and other super powered villains and slides further into Depression. Without Lord Recluse's manipulations, the Weaver focuses Arachnos's efforts on Europe instead of Richter's hometown.
Over the next decade, things get worse in America while Arachnos grows in power in Western Europe. Living the good life, Marcus Cole fills his days mingling with the upper crust and growing out of touch with what is happening around him. By the time he notices the instability Arachnos had created in Britan and France, he is unsure of what to do about it. It's around this time he's introduced to some high ranking Nazi officials by mutual friends.
Cole is impressed by their organization, but appalled by some of their other aspects. But he can't deny Germany's ability to remain strong while the world seems to be going to Hell. He sees them as the best bet in restoring order to the world and reveals his powers to them and offers his allegiance. He tells himself it's for the greater good and will play along while trying to change the party from the inside.
Any resistance Cole meets for not being German or of pure blood is put down by his natural charisma, ability to lead and most importantly, fear of his geat power. He quicky rises through the ranks and by the time the Axis is ready to begin the "liberation" of Europe, he's second only to Hitler in importance to the party as its living embodiment, the Reichsman.
The Axis sweeps across Europe. Key countries already weakened by Arachnos and other factions fall easily to the Wehrmacht and Reichsman's might.
America is in no shape to come to Europe's aid, much less defend themselves when the Axis sets it's sights on them.
The Soviet Union puts up the greatest fight. Even with many supers of their own, the Axis has been producing super soldiers and fantastic weapons non-stop with help from captured scientists from Europe and the Americas. By the mid 70's, the Axis controls the entire world.
Power corrupts, and with no one to temper and ground Cole, he begins to take the party's ideals as his own. Decades pass, Hitler dies, Cole remains young, taking over as leader but grows ever more twisted. What was once an act has now replaced the once noble Marcus Cole. Now, he is only the Reichsman.
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Agreed. The OP is trying to compare apples to limes just because they both happen to come in green and are fruit.
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Originally Posted by LISAR
He was a mercenary...He was either paid to be the Nazi Super Soldier or he was a Nazi sympathizer.
He's not our Statesman he does not have the same past just a similar genetic background. You seem to think him joining Hitler is where the universe differs from ours..in fact does it mention Hitler anywhere in that dimensions information? |
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I know many people don't think so but if X is a given way you can say various things about X even if it's not confirmed. |
Originally Posted by LISAR
He was a mercenary...He was either paid to be the Nazi Super Soldier or he was a Nazi sympathizer.
He's not our Statesman he does not have the same past just a similar genetic background. You seem to think him joining Hitler is where the universe differs from ours..in fact does it mention Hitler anywhere in that dimensions information? |
Nazis for example would not exist without Hitler.
A person wouldn't exist if their parents paths don't cross and it is unlikely that they will when anything is different about their lives.
Basically for Nazis to exist... Everything in Earth Prime must be very very close so close that it is more likely that they are exact same till the divergence point than it is that they aren't and until it says otherwise they are...
In other words the difference in Axis America is what Cole does after becoming an incarnate and not before.
Given the way he speaks and the his accent this indicates that he was likely Brainwashed in some way.
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Durakken : you are missing the point.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
I know many people don't think so but if X is a given way you can say various things about X even if it's not confirmed.
Nazis for example would not exist without Hitler. A person wouldn't exist if their parents paths don't cross and it is unlikely that they will when anything is different about their lives. Basically for Nazis to exist... Everything in Earth Prime must be very very close so close that it is more likely that they are exact same till the divergence point than it is that they aren't and until it says otherwise they are... In other words the difference in Axis America is what Cole does after becoming an incarnate and not before. Given the way he speaks and the his accent this indicates that he was likely Brainwashed in some way. |
You are assuming that at some point the Primal Earth history and the Reichsman History were one in the same dimension.
You are assuming that this point of history is comparable in the terms of the two dimensions.
You are also assuming that Marcus Cole is inherently good and noble in all of his dimensional incarnations.
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We, at this point, don't have any proof that the history of Primal Earth and the Reichsman world are linked. As far as the game's current lore dictates, there is no distinction upon whether or not the Multi-Verse as we experience it through the High Level Peregine Island arcs is indeed a splintered possibility of various realities stemming from a common timeline: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Multiverse
The only indication that their might be a splintered timeline can be found in the Shadow Shard, where there is only one Rularuu the Ravager out of all of the dimensions, and that a portal to the Shadow Shard would take entities to the same Shadow Shard, regardless of their starting dimension.
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As we don't have any proof that the worlds are actually linked at any point in a relative time line, their histories cannot be compared.
The History of Reichsman's world does not require Marcus Cole to be inherently good. It does not require Stefan to have been present. It does not require the advancement of George Hamidon.
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Since the history of Reichsman's world does not require that Marcus Cole have been inherently good and noble, there's no reason to think that he was good and noble in that dimension.
It's very possible that he was downright twisted and evil from the start.
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So, we get what your going for. You are looking for some kind of massive reason "why the good Marcus Cole would do something so evil and become so evil"
Well. Drop that thought. Consider the possibility that Marcus Cole was evil from the start, and Reichsman is Reichsman because he's Reichsman.
In fact from what we've learned so far there seems to be the strong possibility we have the only Marcus Cole who is "good".
Also for a side note the Nazi Pary (formerly the National Socialist German Workers' Party) was named such in 1920. Hitler became the parties leader in 1933.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
Statesman drank from the Fountain of Zeus in 1930s and returned to America.
World War II happened in the 1940s. |
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Originally Posted by Durakken
it also requires him to have not heard the propaganda of Hitler and still agree with him.
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Edit: how it would have been possible to have a rise of Nazis in a victorious Germany is beyond me.
Unless someone can point me to a place in the game where it says otherwise I'm going to believe Reichsman became the leader of the Nazi party instead of Hitler in his world. ^_^
Every time you beat on Reichsman you are beating up off world Hitler.
--edit--
Also if it really bother you try PMing this guy. He most likely can give you all the answers you desire.
MNP said "giggity" when he read this post ...does it really read like I'm suggesting to be naughty to Nazi Cole?
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There may have been some minor change in Cole's past that allowed for him to become a bit less good than we know him. Whether it happened in childhood or adulthood is anyone's guess, but regardless, he's a minor player in WWI, and anything could have happened there. Maybe his buddy stood a few inches too far to the left in Axis world, got his brains blown out all over Cole, making him depressed for a while, changing his life enough that he becamse Reichman.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
I know many people don't think so but if X is a given way you can say various things about X even if it's not confirmed.
Nazis for example would not exist without Hitler. A person wouldn't exist if their parents paths don't cross and it is unlikely that they will when anything is different about their lives. Basically for Nazis to exist... Everything in Earth Prime must be very very close so close that it is more likely that they are exact same till the divergence point than it is that they aren't and until it says otherwise they are... In other words the difference in Axis America is what Cole does after becoming an incarnate and not before. Given the way he speaks and the his accent this indicates that he was likely Brainwashed in some way. |
I'm going to say that in Reichsman's universe, the mustard gas came from his own side (which happened sometimes) and he grew bitter towards his country because of it. His poverty stricken childhood, his penchant for exploring the world, and the bitterness he felt at the whole mustard gas thing leads him once again to the Well of the Furies, but not to America afterwards.
I do like Johnny Butane's idea, but I think Stefan Richter plays an important role: he is the son of an Austrian immigrant who takes Cole in, and the two of them become best buds before heading off to war. Heck, maybe Richter is the guy who stood a wee bit too far left, and Cole ended up going to Austria to pay his respects and some point, and got caught up in the whole Nazi thing there.
je_saist. You're simply wrong. People are who they are because of their pasts and the world is created from their past. As already said, it is near impossible to have anything near what the world is like if it doesn't follow the same path up until a divergence point. In this case Sometime after Cole becomes an incarnate.
The Nazi party before Hitler was a noname political party that had very little support. It was Hitler's rhetoric that pushed Germany back to war and such. Without hitler you have no 3rd reich and no Nazi Germany and no WWII... thus no Reichsman. Even if Cole supported germany and took control of it it would not have been called the 3rd Reich.
So to accept that Cole became Reichsman you have to given him a reason of how he went from his origin and path to what he became which it just doesn't fit. Even if Cole accepted the Nazi party, which I could see happening given his past, his Cole's personality leans more towards the world, and not any individual or single entity which was caused by him searching for Well of Furies. Reichsman attitude is subservience to a nation which doesn't fir his MO.
For Reichsman to exist Cole would have to suddenly start hating Jews for no apparent (as of yet known) reason. I very much doubt that would happen as Cole was well traveled and likely accepting of cultures by that time and not to mention grew up in america and already viewed Germany as the enemy.
Reichsman is who he is because in that parallel universe Cole was for whatever reason allied with the Nazi party - the nuts and bolts of how and why are just filler. He is a Nazi because that is the particular comic book story being told with that character - the well known and liked main character as an evil nazi instead.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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Because M. Bison was already copyrighted by Capcom.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
Why is Reichsman Reichsman?
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See I would think that Richter and Cole after gaining their powers decided to head home, but in this world they took a few days to see Richter's home land and just stayed to help rebuild. They need costumes and didn't show their powers much which pushed back other Super from emerging and when Hitler came on the scene Cole was sucked in due to being poor in the states and seeing the injustice of back home and the treaties... To get the jewish part out of the way, maybe a jew killed Richter? or maybe killed his wife or something like that? Thus allowing Reichsman to be born... or perhaps Cole saw what was happening and tried to stop the holocaust, was caught and the 3rd reich saw his potential so the brainwashed him.
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Originally Posted by Felderburg
I do like Johnny Butane's idea, but I think Stefan Richter plays an important role: he is the son of an Austrian immigrant who takes Cole in, and the two of them become best buds before heading off to war. Heck, maybe Richter is the guy who stood a wee bit too far left, and Cole ended up going to Austria to pay his respects and some point, and got caught up in the whole Nazi thing there.
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one minor person being a jerk-wad his whole life but never changing the world(aka pre-incarnate Reichsman) won't change the world much|
Originally Posted by Durakken
je_saist. You're simply wrong. People are who they are because of their pasts and the world is created from their past. As already said, it is near impossible to have anything near what the world is like if it doesn't follow the same path up until a divergence point. In this case Sometime after Cole becomes an incarnate.
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| The Nazi party before Hitler was a noname political party that had very little support. It was Hitler's rhetoric that pushed Germany back to war and such. Without hitler you have no 3rd reich and no Nazi Germany and no WWII... thus no Reichsman. Even if Cole supported germany and took control of it it would not have been called the 3rd Reich. |
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| So to accept that Cole became Reichsman you have to given him a reason of how he went from his origin and path to what he became which it just doesn't fit. |
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| Even if Cole accepted the Nazi party, which I could see happening given his past, his Cole's personality leans more towards the world, and not any individual or single entity which was caused by him searching for Well of Furies. Reichsman attitude is subservience to a nation which doesn't fir his MO. |
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| For Reichsman to exist Cole would have to suddenly start hating Jews for no apparent (as of yet known) reason. I very much doubt that would happen as Cole was well traveled and likely accepting of cultures by that time and not to mention grew up in america and already viewed Germany as the enemy. |
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Again. you are Assuming.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
je_saist. You're simply wrong. People are who they are because of their pasts and the world is created from their past. As already said, it is near impossible to have anything near what the world is like if it doesn't follow the same path up until a divergence point. In this case Sometime after Cole becomes an incarnate.
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You are assuming that the Reichsman world was like our world.
We don't have any proof that their timeline follows our timeline.
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| The Nazi party before Hitler was a noname political party that had very little support. It was Hitler's rhetoric that pushed Germany back to war and such. Without hitler you have no 3rd reich and no Nazi Germany and no WWII... thus no Reichsman. Even if Cole supported germany and took control of it it would not have been called the 3rd Reich. |
You are Assuming that the Nazi party in the Reichsman dimension happened at the exact same time as the Nazi party in our dimension.
You also Assume that the events leading up to the creation of the Nazi party as we know it were identical to the events that formed the Nazi party in the Reichsman Dimension.
You Assume that Hitler was responsible for the rise of the Nazi party from obscurity into popularity in the Reichsman Dimension.
You Assume that without Hitler, the Nazi's would have not used the term 3rd Reich in the Reichsman Dimension.
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| So to accept that Cole became Reichsman you have to given him a reason of how he went from his origin and path to what he became which it just doesn't fit. Even if Cole accepted the Nazi party, which I could see happening given his past, his Cole's personality leans more towards the world, and not any individual or single entity which was caused by him searching for Well of Furies. Reichsman attitude is subservience to a nation which doesn't fir his MO. |
We do not know that. We can safely PRESUME though that the sequence of events and timings were different.
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| For Reichsman to exist Cole would have to suddenly start hating Jews for no apparent (as of yet known) reason. I very much doubt that would happen as Cole was well traveled and likely accepting of cultures by that time and not to mention grew up in america and already viewed Germany as the enemy. |
You Assume that Marcus Cole from the Reichsman dimension is the same exact Marcus Cole from our dimension, and that at some point after Marcus Cole went to Germany, the timelines diverged.
QUIT ASSUMING
If we accept the presumption that the timelines of the Reichsman Dimension, the personalties of the Reichsman Dimension, and the events of the Reichsman is inherently different, which is a presumption we can safely make based on how we know how the Multi-Verse works in-game cannon...
Reichsman is Reichsman because He's Reichsman.
There doesn't have to be some magnificent event or brainwashing to convert our Version of Statesman / Marcus Cole into Reichsman.
Quit. Trying. To. Fit. Our. Timeline. And. Our. Dimensional. Events. Into. The. Reichsman. Dimension.
There. Did I spell it out for you enough this time?
And no. I'm not wrong. Get over it.
je_saist, I already explained why one must assume that the history is exactly the same up until that point. If you disagree wit that provide an argument against that instead of just saying "NU HUH!!!!"
Also learn to read. None of what i said makes the assumption that Cole is inherently good. What i said is it goes against the established of his past and his MO that is derived from his path.
It's pretty obvious you don't understand cause and effect and how it works and you are still wrong.
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You keep harping on this. I'm sorry, but it's BS. It's a work of fiction and nothing says it has to follow your rules or your concept of how it 'should' be.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
In other words the difference in Axis America is what Cole does after becoming an incarnate and not before.
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| As already said, it is near impossible to have anything near what the world is like if it doesn't follow the same path up until a divergence point. |
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I have read through that arc info, but it strikes me as weird that Reichsman is Reichsman... From what we know of Cole's history this is how his life must've been...
Cole joins the military during WWI
Cole becomes incarnate...
Cole becomes Statesman...
Cole is injured during WWII during d-day.
The Axis powers wins.
Cole becomes Reichman.
This would indicate a betrayal of some sort or a weakness of character in Cole as we know he is "invulnerable" and super strong which means he can more or less take down all of the Axis Army alone... So what caused him to become Reichsman... A staunch patriot that fights for america to becoming the biggest supporter and pretty evil character that is Reichsman.
Maybe mind manipulation? Weakness of Character? Cole just likes the Nazis?
What are your thoughts?