Why is Reichsman Reichsman?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-06-02 17:04 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
For some reason, after reading about 5/7 of this thread... I got a hankerin' to watch episode 200 of Stargate:SG1... Supermarionation universe FTW!
For anyone just tuning in, as far as I can tell;
PartyA believes the game-lore could only use divergent realities (each world is the same save for varying decisions along a time-line, resulting in similar, but potentially significantly different universes)
PartyB says it could just as easily be alternate dimension (ANYTHING could exist in an alternate dimension; H2O freezes at room temperature, dinosaurs still roam the earth, or even Supermarionation land!)
the rest of the thread is pretty much this.
"My inner mind has become a reality-cracking overgod. He torments me! Help!"
Nuh-UH! 
Sorry, it was just too easy to resist. I'll go hang my head in shame now. 
Dec out.
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Ya haa
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Originally Posted by Decorum
Nuh-UH!
Sorry, it was just too easy to resist. I'll go hang my head in shame now. |
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Try harder, the Workers Party was gaining a lot of steam in Germany and the Thule Society was ripe and ready to being what the Nazi's became, they just found the perfect funnel through Hitler...although once he gained enough power he disassociated with them. There were enough high ranking people, that anything could of happened from this.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
You know, the whole, "Nazis would exist without Hitler" thing shows how right I a about the difference between knowledge and understanding, because when I said "Without hitler there would be no Nazis" it would be assumed that you all would understand what I meant is not the exact words that I said.
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Although...this entire idea, I look at it like Superman: Red Son. Superman in PLANET 30; landed in Soviet Russia, and became a communist. The growing up is the same as if he landed in America, but they are two completely different people. This is what happens with the three different Coles we have. It is comic book continuity of multiverse.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
You know, the whole, "Nazis would exist without Hitler" thing shows how right I a about the difference between knowledge and understanding, because when I said "Without hitler there would be no Nazis" it would be assumed that you all would understand what I meant is not the exact words that I said.
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I-
....
*looks at it upside down*
...
*tries translating it into French, German, Sanskrit and Gobgoonish*
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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He wants us to hear the voices in his head.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
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I- .... *looks at it upside down* ... *tries translating it into French, German, Sanskrit and Gobgoonish* |
I now read his words, assume that he means something other than what he says, and interpret that to mean that he agrees with me. For some reason, I find his posts eminently more reasonable now.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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not really, instead of returning to America, Reichsman could've just as easily went to Germany and became involved with the Nazi Party,
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Originally Posted by Durakken
Then that articles is wrong cuz that doesn't follow
Statesman drank from the Fountain of Zeus in 1930s and returned to America. World War II happened in the 1940s. For Cole to have become Reichsman they he would have had to either defected or been Brain Washed... So he's either a tragedy or Cole is shouldn't really be as trusted as he is considering the defection and possible support of Nazi beliefs which is a worse place than Tyrant is. |
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Yeah, how crazy is that, who would think some small tiny detail would completely skew the history in another dimension.
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Originally Posted by LISAR
Man it's almost like other dimensions have different timelines then ours!
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------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
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So you want us to somehow parse what you MEANT to say instead of what you ACTUALLY said.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
You know, the whole, "Nazis would exist without Hitler" thing shows how right I a about the difference between knowledge and understanding, because when I said "Without hitler there would be no Nazis" it would be assumed that you all would understand what I meant is not the exact words that I said.
What I meant is, before Hitler joined the Nazi party and started his propaganda, they were a small political party that no one cared about. Without Hitler Nazis would likely have never became such a big political party or win any election, and likely would either died out or remained small to this day. So in the form that most people know the Nazi Party would not have existed. |
Do you not get how crazy that makes you sound?
Besides, your history is a bit lacking, there.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Originally Posted by LISAR Man it's almost like other dimensions have different timelines then ours! |
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Originally Posted by ebon3
Yeah, how crazy is that, who would think some small tiny detail would completely skew the history in another dimension.
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I'm sorry, I really didn't mean to step on that butterfly...
(Sorry, literary and Sci Fi geek reference - but it had to be said)
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
Everyone assumes everything is just a joke anyways.... Right?
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
I have found this thread an interesting read but have drawn up a few graphic representations of a few possibilities to explain some ppls arguements (or at least I hope I have). (P.S these are thrown together very hastily).
Assumption 1
Single big bang yet from it multiple time lines emerge each one distinct and seperate from any other. Given infintie possibilities each time line would be different in an infinite number of ways and also there would be an infinite number of the same timeline that are the same but not the same.
Assumption 2
Big bang creates a massive number of timelines that are all seperate yet like a web can create divergent time lines and said timelines can possibly merge or cross.
Assumption 3
An infinite number of seperate big bangs create the own unique timelines that are seperate and like assumptions 1 due to inifinte possibilities you can have ... blah blah blah. Assumption 1 and 2 can be applied to any one of assumption 3's big bangs.
Assumption 4
1 time line from the big bang that creates divulging parallels at pivot points (in theory can happen at every infinite point along the time line). In this assumption the links to different divulgent parallels would be man made (not depicted)
Now all my assumptions assume time as we know it starts with the big bang and goes on till inifinty so I am not gonna beg the question what happens before the big bang cos that'll give me a headache. Ofc I could also go on and make loads more assumptions but these are the key 4 I think of when imagining a multiverse.
In terms of my belief for CoH I think Assumption 1 or 3 would apply because at no point in the games lore to my knowledge and would be happy to be corrected is there any proof of time merging or divulging and therefore man made bridges between universes (Portal Corp) and time travel are the only means to alter fixed time line continuities within each seperate universe.
As for reichs my theory would summarise there are an infinite number of reichsmans out there and an inifinte number of good coles turned bad and an infinite number of bad coles staying bad etc etc.
As for the reichs we know seeing as it is stated he was a rogue and a mercenary (unlike the soldier of fortune that the cole in the first CoH novel was depicted as) I don't believe there was a pivot point where he divulged from the cole in our universe because I see the reichs cole as just one of a infinite number of random posibilities for an infinite number of bad coles turned reichs that are in no way connected to an infinite number of cgood coles turned statesman.
Ofc this is all personal belief and trying to explain what I mean has been very difficult sorry for any confusion.
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Durakken, you do know that Hitler wasn't the worst Nazi, right? Most of the most heinous actions were carried out enthusiastically by his underlings, and during his "Let's go crazy" phase, he wasn't really running the country anymore. Germany after WWI was primed for what happened. If not Adolf, someone else would have done the same thing.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
You know, the whole, "Nazis would exist without Hitler" thing shows how right I a about the difference between knowledge and understanding, because when I said "Without hitler there would be no Nazis" it would be assumed that you all would understand what I meant is not the exact words that I said.
What I meant is, before Hitler joined the Nazi party and started his propaganda, they were a small political party that no one cared about. Without Hitler Nazis would likely have never became such a big political party or win any election, and likely would either died out or remained small to this day. So in the form that most people know the Nazi Party would not have existed. |
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| shows how right I a about the difference between knowledge and understanding |
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
Did anyone mention that a wizard did it yet?
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Everyone assumes that a wizard did not do it. |
Originally Posted by LISAR
Did anyone mention that a wizard did it yet?
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@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Originally Posted by LISAR
Did anyone mention that a wizard did it yet?
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Here's something most people gloss over, people were completely ready to blame the Jews and noone really asked where they were going. The Holocaust is not why we faught against the Germans, but rather a desire not to be dominated by another power.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
That's not the point... the point is why did he turn to becoming Reichsman? Did he decide not to go back to paragon and decide to help Germany recover...if so how did Nazis come about as a hero helping them out would lessen Hitler's rhetoric. Did he not help oand just chill in Germany or something? Even if he did he would still likely of gotten away from Germany as quick as possible...And what of Recluse?
There is another option... he's trying to work from the inside... Any way you look at it He's a Tragedy or a Traitor in support of Nazis. There is literally no course of events that could happen that make that not the case. We are either keeping him from helping the good cause, been brainwashed away from being Statesman, or a Traitor in support of Nazi ideals (in other words he said the holocaust was a good thing) |
IN all likelyhood the States in OUR dimension was pretty hard on the Jews and likely African Americans as well, Gays etc, until society as a whole became more tolerant and he either followed suit or pretended too.
If he went to help Germany with the restoration the only leap he'd need to make is German empire over American and that would be an easier arguement to win for the Nazi Party.
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That is something I've thought about as well: that someone born in Statesman's time would have likely had some trouble respecting the equal rights of women and minorities.|
Originally Posted by AwesomusPrime
Here's something most people gloss over, people were completely ready to blame the Jews and noone really asked where they were going. The Holocaust is not why we faught against the Germans, but rather a desire not to be dominated by another power.
IN all likelyhood the States in OUR dimension was pretty hard on the Jews and likely African Americans as well, Gays etc, until society as a whole became more tolerant and he either followed suit or pretended too. If he went to help Germany with the restoration the only leap he'd need to make is German empire over American and that would be an easier arguement to win for the Nazi Party. |
The first novel, though, has Marcus Cole being raised in comparative poverty in a time when Paragon City was in tough economic times ... and then spending over ten years in Europe during the Lost Generation of American Expatriates following World War I.
All things considered, I don't think it's impossible that he would have had been more enlightened than the typical citizen of the US at that time... especially since he had no problem with an African American founding the Freedom Phalanx with him.
I have always thought that it'd be interesting to take an immortal character and show their beliefs changing over time, though.
If it was left in canon history that Captain America or the Justice Society had used a perjorative term for the Japanese people during World War II would it make them any less heroic today if it's shown they had grown beyond their initial prejudices?
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Blue's Assembled Story Links
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To some people. Some never forgive or see the context. I know several people that will never ever touch anything by the great Will Eisner because they consider Ebony White in The Spirit to be proof that he was an evil evil racist. **shakes head sadly**
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BlueBattler has a point: If it was left in canon history that Captain America or the Justice Society had used a perjorative term for the Japanese people during World War II would it make them any less heroic today if it's shown they had grown beyond their initial prejudices? |
Dec out.
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So, because you're sloppy with your logic and language, we're supposed to automatically intuit what you're attempting to say (regardless of the fact that your wording may say something completely and utterly contrary) and just agreed to it?|
Originally Posted by Durakken
You know, the whole, "Nazis would exist without Hitler" thing shows how right I a about the difference between knowledge and understanding, because when I said "Without hitler there would be no Nazis" it would be assumed that you all would understand what I meant is not the exact words that I said.
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| What I meant is, before Hitler joined the Nazi party and started his propaganda, they were a small political party that no one cared about. Without Hitler Nazis would likely have never became such a big political party or win any election, and likely would either died out or remained small to this day. So in the form that most people know the Nazi Party would not have existed. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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In the comics, Statesman mentions he supported Women's Suffrage...|
Originally Posted by AwesomusPrime
Here's something most people gloss over, people were completely ready to blame the Jews and noone really asked where they were going. The Holocaust is not why we faught against the Germans, but rather a desire not to be dominated by another power.
IN all likelyhood the States in OUR dimension was pretty hard on the Jews and likely African Americans as well, Gays etc, until society as a whole became more tolerant and he either followed suit or pretended too. If he went to help Germany with the restoration the only leap he'd need to make is German empire over American and that would be an easier arguement to win for the Nazi Party. |
EDIT: To the collected thread and its inhabitants as a whole, I submit the following fallacy. It's called affirming the consequent, and it happens when you declare that because Effect Z happened, Cause A must have happened.
Or, to put it in more relevant terms, Reichsman's existence is not sufficient proof to determine the nature of reality and "multi-dimensional" universes.
Ahhhh, yes indeed Wonderfully stated!
However, let me paraphrase...
"Reichsman, Copernicus called... And you are not the center of the universe!"
(Just saw a Frasier episode where he says that to Niles, hehe )
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
I thought it was common knowledge that on Reichsman's Earth, Edith Keeler was not killed in a traffic accident but that, having been spared this fate because James T. Kirk had the hots for her, she instead went on to form a pacifist movement whose influence delayed the entry of the United States into World War II, and this delay in turn gave Nazi Germany time to develop an atomic bomb, causing Marcus Cole to side with them and ultimately conquer the world.
Therefore the reason that Reichsman rises to power is that that dimension's Spock does not prevent Kirk and/or McCoy from saving Keeler. The proper line of inquiry clearly should be focused on that dimension's Spock!
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
You know, the whole, "Nazis would exist without Hitler" thing shows how right I a about the difference between knowledge and understanding, because when I said "Without hitler there would be no Nazis" it would be assumed that you all would understand what I meant is not the exact words that I said.
What I meant is, before Hitler joined the Nazi party and started his propaganda, they were a small political party that no one cared about. Without Hitler Nazis would likely have never became such a big political party or win any election, and likely would either died out or remained small to this day. So in the form that most people know the Nazi Party would not have existed.
Dec out.
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