Lost - SERIES FINALE! - 5/23/10
I will also say this, the ending to the sideways universe is affecting me more now then it did initially. I have been thinking about it and it has taken on a personal twist.
You all know what happened with my mom and how she brought me to Lost and her passing the day of the Season 6 premiere. So for the show that we both loved to end on the note that in the next plane of existance, the people who had the greatest impact on you and who you had the greatest impact on greeting you seemed to be speaking to me. Not only was there a philosophical point on Lost that I believed in long before the show, but now, more than ever, I wanted to hear it.
Dang it, Lost, you got me again!
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]
I liked it.
I don't mind a little genre-mixing here and there and I believe that someone who wanted it to be metaphysical/supernatural probably got more out of it then those that wanted sci-fi but i'm just happy with it being, well...Lost.
One thing made me a little sad though...not all dogs go to "heaven". = (
Main Server:Victory
***"When you surround an enemy, leave an outlet free [...] to make him believe there is a road to safety, and thus prevent his fighting with the courage of despair." Sun Tzu ***
When talking about the credit/crash site image I think they may have missed the hint/meaning in that there were no bodies on the beach (i.e. there were survivors) therefore you realize that what happened on the island did in fact happen i.e. the Island wasn't purgatory; the flash sideways was. (At least that's what I got out of it)
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Some great stuff and some interesting answers to questions, but I think they really missed something.
When talking about the credit/crash site image I think they may have missed the hint/meaning in that there were no bodies on the beach (i.e. there were survivors) therefore you realize that what happened on the island did in fact happen i.e. the Island wasn't purgatory; the flash sideways was. (At least that's what I got out of it) |
Some people said they could see production staff graffiti on the plane parts, meaning it was simply an appreciation of the show itself and not meant to be taken into consideration regarding the story.
Other said they saw some of the camp the Losties set up, further proving that the crash really had survivors.
If it means anything to the story, it is that people lived (there were no bodies, as you said) and it was simply meant to parallel the opening of the show, like Jack's death.
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]
Thinking about it... since we were told that the whispers were souls that were trapped because they couldn't move on, then doesn't that make The Island purgatory as well? or at least, somehow the physical location of purgatory, and so the flash-sideways stuff was happening on The Island, in a metaphorical sense.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
I think it would have helped tremendously if they showed how people "died" off the island. Maybe, perhaps in their "awakenings" as well? From the people i've talked to about the show this morning, very few believe that they all made it off the island alive.
Main Server:Victory
***"When you surround an enemy, leave an outlet free [...] to make him believe there is a road to safety, and thus prevent his fighting with the courage of despair." Sun Tzu ***
Thinking about it... since we were told that the whispers were souls that were trapped because they couldn't move on, then doesn't that make The Island purgatory as well? or at least, somehow the physical location of purgatory, and so the flash-sideways stuff was happening on The Island, in a metaphorical sense.
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@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
I think it would have helped tremendously if they showed how people "died" off the island. Maybe, perhaps in their "awakenings" as well? From the people i've talked to about the show this morning, very few believe that they all made it off the island alive.
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Though it may have been stepping on Six Feet Under's finale, which did something similar to that.
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Wait, I just remembered something. Did Soul Sister Kate tell Jack that she missed him, or was it vice versa? Because that is another subtle clue that she lived a long time after leaving the Island that some people might not be picking up on.
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Well, pre-show, I was hoping for
1) a non-Purgatory-esque-ending, I thought that would be a cop-out, 2) some strong explanations for the physical/scientific discontinuities/time travel/inconsistencies, 3) revelations about the philosophical, literary, and social shout-outs/easter-eggs that were dropped in so often. |
I don't think "purgatory" is the right term for what the sideways universe was, as the term has a really negative connotation. Perhaps "limbo" fits better. Since we had a resolution of the island plot line, I never really felt this was a cop out in any way. The island stuff all happened, the characters all had their redemption stories, and they all ended up having great impacts on each others' lives. One of the main themes of the show was "Live together, die alone," and the characters in the church at the end had all made the decision to live together. Out of all the characters we witnessed die, not one of them died alone. (Charlie -- died helping Desmond. Jack -- Vincent sat with him. Jin and Sun -- obviously died together. Shannon -- died in Sayid's arms. Etc.)
As far as the hard science answers go, I wasn't disappointed that we didn't get a bullet point list of how the island works. The island just is. It has properties of extreme electromagnetism and it serves some unknown cosmic purpose. The other theme of the show was "man of science vs. man of faith," and one of the major conflicts was the Dharma Initiative versus The Others (i.e. "The Hostiles"). One group was one of faith and the other one of science. When science tried to explain the island, they did untold damage to it and were eventually wiped out by Ben. There are some things out there that Man is just not meant to learn. Or you can view it as the island being beyond the understanding of what our technology allows. In another comparison, did it help or hurt the mythology when you discovered that the blood of Jedi Knights were full of mitochlorians? I rest my case.
And I think all the literary references were just Easter Egg sorts of clues that were dropped in there at times. The writers were having some fun.
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
About Sayid and Shannon, how do you all feel that Sayid's "true love" was Shannon not Nadia?
I think it makes some sense, because as much as Sayid loved Nadia, she was always a reminder of who he was. Not only did she remind him of his torturer days, but she was tortured by Sayid himself. Their love was always doomed, as it would always cause Sayid to revert to his torturer ways/bad impulses. We saw it when he betrayed his best friend in Sydney to get some info on Nadia. We saw it when, after Nadia's death, Sayid worked for Ben. We even saw it in limbo, when Sayid killed Keamy and crew to protect Nadia.
Sayid and Shannon, on the other hand, allowed each other to start anew. Sayid could be romantic without his past over his shoulder. Shannon could be accepted. They were truly each other's clean slate.
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]
Season 5, all the Dharma stuff you can imagine.
Basically, the Initiative was another group of people brought to the Island. They were hippie scientists, turned a bit of mad scientist, and they built hatches on the Island to study it. Like The Black Rock, like Rousseau and her team, they weren't going to explain the mythology of the Island, they were the mythology, showing us how people come to the Island and some exploit it (which was touched upon as a theme in an episode this year). The purgatory/well of furies is only relevant to the main cast, the survivors of 815 (more or less). The Well of Furies were for those deemed worthy, which was a few of the 815 survivors, finally and the purgatory was a human construct for lost souls and not specific to any one group (since Ben and Desmond were a part of it, you can't say it was only 815 survivors) |
from what i take of the dharma iniative far as there origins is this
The Dharma Initiative and its origins are first explored in the episode "Orientation" by an orientation film in the Swan Station. Dr. Pierre Chang, explains that the project began in 1970, created by two doctoral candidates from the University of Michigan, Gerald and Karen DeGroot , and was funded by Alvar Hanso of the Hanso Foundation. They imagined a "large-scale communal research compound", where scientists and free thinkers from around the globe could research meteorology, psychology, parapsychology, zoology, electromagnetism, and a sixth discipline that the film begins to identify as "utopian social-" before being cut off. |
ok so they go threw these greats length building all these bunkers that involve all different research things
research meteorology, psychology, parapsychology, zoology, electromagnetism, and a sixth discipline that the film begins to identify as "utopian social-" |
Station 5: The Pearl The Pearl is where the Dharma Initiative studied psychology. It primarily serves as a monitoring station, to which surveillance feeds from the other stations are sent. Its orientation film asserts that the Swan is a psychological experiment, and that the purpose of those stationed in the Pearl is to monitor the participants in that station. The station consists of a three-by-three bank of television sets, two chairs with writing surfaces, and a computer hooked to a printer. A pneumatic tube is installed in the room, which the orientation film states is used to transport notebooks to another Dharma location. According to the orientation film that features Dr Mark Whickman, two-person teams, working eight-hour shifts over a three-week period, were to watch the video displays and take notes on their observations. Every action, regardless of how subtle, were to be recorded into notebooks by the Pearl's team members. After Oceanic Flight 815 crashes on the Island, Nikki and Paulo are the first survivors to encounter the Pearl, while searching for diamonds. Several weeks later, Locke and Mr. Eko enter the Pearl and watch the orientation video. Locke believes this means pushing the button in the Swan is a psychological test, and resolves to discover what will happen if it is not pushed. However, Desmond postulates in "Live Together, Die Alone" that the Pearl participants were the true test subjects without knowing it. This is supported when the survivors discover that the pneumatic tube dumps the notebooks into an open field; the contents of the notebooks indicate that they had been dumped there long before the station closed. During season three, some of the survivors visit the Pearl in hope of finding a way to communicate with the Others, but discover that the station is only capable of receiving data, not sending it |
what is this, i don't even.
the weird thing is "the others" where already on the island when the initiative arrived to build this mess and yet they didn't help the people they decided to study the people?
whats there to study just help the people out obviously they are stranded people from wrecks ...why else would they have regular clothes and aren't all "lord of the flys" crazy tribal going on .
"the others" spoke English too ...
so yeah they are building all this mess with grant money but don't help a brother out ....fail too notice the smoke monster that kills people or the glowing fountain that makes people immortal.
yeah i don't get it.
but thanks anyway
edit:
it just seems to me they added that subplot to threw people off and get them interested in "what new mysterious station would be showcased next" instead of the actual plot of what was going on like in hindsight if you cut out all the dharma stuff from the show it doesn't fit and isn't needed .
like it's just a ruse.
One thing made me a little sad though...not all dogs go to "heaven". = ( |
Thinking about it... since we were told that the whispers were souls that were trapped because they couldn't move on, then doesn't that make The Island purgatory as well? or at least, somehow the physical location of purgatory, and so the flash-sideways stuff was happening on The Island, in a metaphorical sense. |
I don't think "purgatory" is the right term for what the sideways universe was, as the term has a really negative connotation. Perhaps "limbo" fits better. |
Purgatory is a place of cleansing. It's in between heaven and hell. It's for those who died with sins but not having rejected God. They can still be purified and "let go" of the stuff that happened while alive, and move on to Heaven.
Those in Limbo can't, for the most part.
Heck, Ana-lucia and Ben were in there, so presumably, they have a chance to move on. Even Sawyer got the chance to, and he was a killer.
The Others, to the Dharma folk were natives to the Island, and were called by Dharma, The Hostiles. Think to the British colonization of the Americas. At first, they tried to help the Native Americans here, but eventually, it turned to hostilities and war. Dharma vs The Others/Hostiles is that in a nutshell.
And, like I said, Dharma was hippy scientists. They were trying to understand humanity. They were working on something called the Valenzetti Equation which was supposed to predict the end of the world. The Pearl Station, Station 5, was their version of a Skinner Box. It was meant to test how man would react to man if one side was removed from the other. If we were made "gods" in the sense that we could observe all, how would we react? Remember, those stationed at the Pearl would eventually return to the Barracks, where undoubtedly, they would interact with the very subjects they were observing. The Pearl Station was meant to test how its runner would react to being isolated and observing research, not how they see what other people are doing.
The other research stations (save for The Swan), are meant to aid in finding the fundamental truths about the universe and the Island. Including human behavoir.
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]
Also, Dharma was funded in part by Alvar Hanso, whose great-great grandfather, Magnus Hanso was the captain of the Black Rock.
And you can also say that the Dharma folk were brought to the Island by Jacob to be potential candidates (Horace's name was on cave wall). How Jacob brought people to the Island was varied: shipwrecks, plane crashes, etc. Perhaps the only way to bring all those people to the Island to be "judged," as it were, was to plant the seed of Dharma in the DeGroots' minds.
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]
Only if one doesn't know what the term "Purgatory" really means.
Purgatory is a place of cleansing. It's in between heaven and hell. It's for those who died with sins but not having rejected God. They can still be purified and "let go" of the stuff that happened while alive, and move on to Heaven. Those in Limbo can't, for the most part. Heck, Ana-lucia and Ben were in there, so presumably, they have a chance to move on. Even Sawyer got the chance to, and he was a killer. |
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
About Sayid and Shannon, how do you all feel that Sayid's "true love" was Shannon not Nadia?
I think it makes some sense, because as much as Sayid loved Nadia, she was always a reminder of who he was. Not only did she remind him of his torturer days, but she was tortured by Sayid himself. Their love was always doomed, as it would always cause Sayid to revert to his torturer ways/bad impulses. We saw it when he betrayed his best friend in Sydney to get some info on Nadia. We saw it when, after Nadia's death, Sayid worked for Ben. We even saw it in limbo, when Sayid killed Keamy and crew to protect Nadia. Sayid and Shannon, on the other hand, allowed each other to start anew. Sayid could be romantic without his past over his shoulder. Shannon could be accepted. They were truly each other's clean slate. |
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
About Sayid and Shannon, how do you all feel that Sayid's "true love" was Shannon not Nadia?
I think it makes some sense, because as much as Sayid loved Nadia, she was always a reminder of who he was. Not only did she remind him of his torturer days, but she was tortured by Sayid himself. Their love was always doomed, as it would always cause Sayid to revert to his torturer ways/bad impulses. We saw it when he betrayed his best friend in Sydney to get some info on Nadia. We saw it when, after Nadia's death, Sayid worked for Ben. We even saw it in limbo, when Sayid killed Keamy and crew to protect Nadia. Sayid and Shannon, on the other hand, allowed each other to start anew. Sayid could be romantic without his past over his shoulder. Shannon could be accepted. They were truly each other's clean slate. |
I had never really thought about Nadia being the 'reminder of his bad self', but that really brings to mind what Hurley said to him in the car. Wasn't it something like, "I believe you're good, but everyone keeps saying you're bad so you believe them. But I believe in you." Or something to that effect. Very powerful words.
I had never really thought about Nadia being the 'reminder of his bad self', but that really brings to mind what Hurley said to him in the car. Wasn't it something like, "I believe you're good, but everyone keeps saying you're bad so you believe them. But I believe in you." Or something to that effect. Very powerful words.
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Now, whether or not the Island was egging him on is one thing, but Sayid never really turned away from the situations that caused him to think himself as bad.
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]
Sayid was constantly putting himself into situations where he would be easily manipulated by events or people into becoming bad: his partnership with Ben, his plan with Jack for take care of Michael that led to Sun and Jin becoming involved, meeting Mikhail for the first time, etc. It is weird, people turned to Sayid to do the uncivilized things because he seemed so civil about it!
Now, whether or not the Island was egging him on is one thing, but Sayid never really turned away from the situations that caused him to think himself as bad. |
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
But I think that's what Hurley was trying to tell him. "You do bad things because people tell you you're bad, so you believe you're bad. But you're really a good person and I believe in you." The irony to all of this was Sayid's "awakening" happened by Hurley introducing him to a bad situation.
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But while Hurley brought him to a bad situation, Hurley did not ask Sayid to do anything. Much like the death of Sayid, in the sideways verse, ultimately Sayid volunteered to do the right thing. His instinct was proven to be one that helps, not one that fights, torturers, or otherwise kills.
"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie
[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]
Cliff notes won't show you the wonder in their eyes. The anger in their fists. The love and hate in their hearts. The fear in their faces. The pain in their lives. Yeah, it can tell you about the mystery, but that was only a small part of the show. And like life, not all the answers will come out. So if you really want to understand the big pay off, you're going to have to invest some time into it.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Loved the finale. It was a satisfying ending. Jack vs Flocke. Good vs evil. There was a satisfactory conclusion to what had been building up. I really like that they refused to answer everything about everything. There will still be arguments about what exactly the island is, and endless points of Lost mythology to debate about. I've always preferred mystery to knowing everything. I think the writers were smart enough to know that NO answer they could give for the Island would ever be as rich and deep and good and fun as the ideas that people make up for themselves. So, they chose the wise course, and left it for us to interpret.
More than anything, this show has always been about the characters. And ****** if they didn't just knock it out of the park in the finale. All those moments of revelation as the Losties touch and see and remember who they are, and who they are to each other. That alone was magic. My wife was bawling, and it was just so emotionally powerful. Hats off to the writers and actors. Incredible job. Hurley was pure gold in this episode. The scene where he goes to get Charlie. Just that look of wonder and happiness on his face at seeing his friend again... wow. I couldn't have imagined them ending on a better note.
I loved the Watchmen-esque closing scene. Jack running through the forest, falling, his eye closing, mirroring his eye popping open, rising, running through the forest in the first scene of the pilot. A great symmetry to it all. Amazing show, amazing ending.
�Life's hard. It's even harder when you're stupid.� ― John Wayne
�Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are even stupider!� - George Carlin