Who are the CoH analogs of...
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-05-22 15:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Admittedly, I haven't done every story arc there is redside (or blueside for that matter). And even reading them as I go, it's more of a quick read to know what your doing at the time, without trying to actually retain it.
But if I read this thread right. You fight Recluse again? How does that storyline even work, if your using a team the whole time to begin with? Or is it all just written in the story and you never actually try to take him on as an AV, solo?
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Quote:
This is probably an irrelevant technical side track, but those statements are not necessarily true, or rather they are not always consistent with all fictional variations on parallel dimensions.|
Originally Posted by Venture
There are infinitely many parallel worlds in which Recluse wins.
There are infinitely many where Recluse loses. There are infinitely many where Recluse doesn't even exist. This is why alternate worlds don't count. |
If we're talking about parallel dimensions which are basically alternate timelines of our world, then if I place a radioactive atom in a container, there are infinitely many variations on what happens next based on the exact time and orientation that atom decays. In one parallel dimension the atom decays two seconds later and parts go flying in different directions, and in another it decays four seconds later.
But that doesn't mean *all* describable futures actually exist. The alternate future in which the container has all of the parts of that decay embedded in the right side of the container *doesn't* exist because that one violates the laws of physics: some stuff has to go one way, and conservation of momentum requires the rest go the other way. Of all the alternate futures, that one can't exist if the alternate futures are split from mine.
There is a mathematical construct called the Game of Life that is based on cellular automata. Basically, its a system based on a square grid in which cells turn black or white based on a set of rules, and those rules are executed in turns or clock ticks. It turns out there are patterns of squares called Gardenof Eden patterns which are called that because they cannot occur as the next step in the system from *any* possible starting pattern. In other words, they can only occur if they are the starting pattern placed there at creation, thus "Garden of Eden." Another way of describing these patterns is that they have no past. No past pattern eventually becomes that pattern.
The universe is a lot more complex, but there's no reason to believe that such patterns don't exist for the universe as a whole: patterns that cannot possibly be the end result of the universe, either literally from the big bang or from some known starting point. There isn't a universe that looks exactly like ours does throughout all of history except five minutes from now the earth and the sun have changed places, say.
So are there universes in which Recluse doesn't exist? Almost certainly. But are there an unlimited number of possibilities for what Recluse's fate might be? Maybe not. This might be one of those unknowable to humans questions: if you could know what all of the myriad quantum states were that were involved in Recluse eventually becoming leader of Arachnos, you could theoretically know what all the possibilities were. But in practice, probably not.
What is true is that there are probably either an unlimited number of alternate futures in which Recluse ultimately wins, or there are zero such alternate dimensions. Whatever the number is, its either zero or infinity.
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You fight Recluse at the end of the last patron arc, as with everything in the game you can attempt to solo him as either and AV or an EB, or you can gather a team.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Admittedly, I haven't done every story arc there is redside (or blueside for that matter). And even reading them as I go, it's more of a quick read to know what your doing at the time, without trying to actually retain it.
But if I read this thread right. You fight Recluse again? How does that storyline even work, if your using a team the whole time to begin with? Or is it all just written in the story and you never actually try to take him on as an AV, solo? |
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This is where they should have different stories for how you do it then.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
You fight Recluse at the end of the last patron arc, as with everything in the game you can attempt to solo him as either and AV or an EB, or you can gather a team.
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Solo EB (you fought him when we was weak, but you fought him one on one)
Team EB (you fought him when he was weak, and you needed help)
Solo AV (Fought him when he was his toughest and beat him, the people follow you)
Team AV (You couldn't handle him alone, sooo, you got a team together, you're revered, but the people know you can be beat).
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Yeah, I noticed that mental malfunction. My mistake.|
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
I'm talking about Recluse.
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Although there's a lot about Recluse that seems incompetent, to believe that this makes it totally unrealistic that he could possibly be the leader of anything contradicts history. Hitler managed to rule half of Europe by first being nothing more than a charismatic speaker, parlaying that into being the focal point of a layered group of people from inner circle to outer that took control of an entire country, and eventually forcing obedience through a mixture of suspicion and fear.
In WWII, historians tend to agree Hitler did almost everything right for three years, then practically everything wrong after that point. If you look at his military decisions in the last few years of the war, you could be excused for wondering how he could lead a cub scout troop much less an entire European armed forces and why people ten times smarter were still taking orders from him until almost the very end.
I think you need to look at Recluse in terms of the fact that few people actually work for *him*. They work for a Fortunata boss, or an Arachnos soldier, and *those* people can and will kill you. They don't work for Recluse either, they work for other leaders, who work for other leaders. And why do Recluse's Lts work for him? Well, why not: working for him allows them significant political power, and there's no specific benefit to trying to take him out or replace him unless they are absolutely certain of success.
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I hadn't caught that one, but I think you're right. He strikes me as less the devil-may-care of Tony Stark, and more the crouching-bookworm-hidden-bada** of Reed Richards. Especially with Johnny Storm- errr... Synapse as a partner. |
Originally Posted by BlueBattler
Positron wears armor, but that's really all he shares with Iron Man. He's more like Reed Richards: a scientist rather than an engineer.
|
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Venture nails it. Doom is intelligent, sophisticated, has taste, and CARES about his people.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Recluse is an Anti Sue: he is simultaneously a total doofus who couldn't intrigue his way out of a paper bag and loses all the time and the point around which the entire redside world revolves.
He is not even close to being an analog of Doom. At best he's an analog of Baron Strucker. Cobra Commander -- the cartoon version -- is an even better fit. |
Recluse is a mad man who is laughable at times.
Well, the first page and a half of this thread were entertaining.
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Urrr, Thor = Norse deity. Valkryie = handmaidens of Thor's father. So why minus the 'Nordic diety stuff'?|
Originally Posted by Rodoan
Valkyrie I always felt, had a backstory that always reminded me of Marvel's Thor, just minus the Nordic diety stuff.
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
Blue Steel is closer to Chuck Norris.
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Lord Recluse- Dr. Doom in that he's a ruler and his hatred of Statesman, with a bit of Cobra Commander mixed in for the thematic army and his level of control (or lack thereof) over it.
Ghost Widow- Visually she resembles Silver Banshee, but that's about it.
Mako- Killer Croc
Black Scorpion- It's a loose fit, but the closest I can think of would be Mac Gargan/Scorpion crossed with Iron Man villains like Titanium Man or the Crimson Dynamo.
Scirocco- I'm sure there's someone that matches his characterization, especially from the Patron arc, but I don't know offhand.
Statesman- Superman crossed with Captain America with a bit of Captain Marvel thrown in.
Positron- Nuke from Squadron Supreme crossed with Iron Man.
Synapse- The Flash.
Manticore- Batman crossed with Hawkeye.
Dark Watcher- The Shadow.
Nemesis- Luthor mixed with Dr. Doom. If -anyone- in this game is a Mary Sue, it's Nemesis with the level of awe he's supposed to inspire. He's formidable in modern times with steampunk tech, he's supposed to have a hand in everything, is impossible to find, and has long reaching plans within plans within plans.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
You know, Nemesis just needs to sell the secret of how he can run automatons on STEAM power ... I mean, for gosh sakes, do those things eat coal or what?! 
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Hee, well technically, no matter what you use to heat the water, it's still steam power. You could heat the water with a nuclear reactor and it'd still be powered by steam. The heating part doesn't have to be archaic (although it's hardly efficient). 
Dec out.
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Yes, we got that. The problem is that steam power has rather a great many limitations, chief among them what you're going to do with the rather copious amounts of excess heat.
| Hee, well technically, no matter what you use to heat the water, it's still steam power. You could heat the water with a nuclear reactor and it'd still be powered by steam. |
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I was merely commenting on the coal comment, not trying to make it make actual SENSE. 
Dec out.
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Shyeah...if Chuck Norris were made out of ADAMANTIUM COATED AWESOME!|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
Blue Steel is closer to Chuck Norris.
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And wouldn't you need a lot of water to operate a giant sized robot (Fake Nemesis) or even a walking boiler? |
Originally Posted by Venture
Yes, we got that. The problem is that steam power has rather a great many limitations, chief among them what you're going to do with the rather copious amounts of excess heat.
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Forget the TSP report. If you see someone draining a 5 gallon water cooler at one sitting it's probably an automaton.
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I like to think of War Witch as kind of like DC's Raven. Also, the Rikti are clearly inverse Skrulls.
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WRONG! Rularuu is the Beyonder, and I defy anybody to tell me otherwise! |
Originally Posted by Rodoan
Rularuu is not unlike Galactus.
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| Valkyrie I always felt, had a backstory that always reminded me of Marvel's Thor, just minus the Nordic diety stuff. |
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But our Val's origin has to do with science rather than magic. The spear transforms her using some kind of nannites.
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Originally Posted by Tramontane
I like to think of War Witch as kind of like DC's Raven. Also, the Rikti are clearly inverse Skrulls.
WRONG! Rularuu is the Beyonder, and I defy anybody to tell me otherwise! But... the Valkyries... are... Nordic Deities... |
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Okay, well, fine, it's technobabble. It's still a magic (Sorry, pseudoscience) weapon turning somebody into a Norse Deity/Superhero.
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Originally Posted by BlueBattler
But our Val's origin has to do with science rather than magic. The spear transforms her using some kind of nannites.
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Ice/Ice Blaster. Dedication to concept is an ugly thing.
Claws/WP Brute. Sex without the angst.
Every CoX character lies somewhere on this spectrum.
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Originally Posted by BlueBattler
But our Val's origin has to do with science rather than magic. The spear transforms her using some kind of nannites.
Exactly my point.
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Originally Posted by Tramontane
Okay, well, fine, it's technobabble. It's still a magic (Sorry, pseudoscience) weapon turning somebody into a Norse Deity/Superhero.
Its like those pesky official-lore midi-chlorians elsewhere. Just wave your magic wand and make their existence disappear. Or if you prefer, put your fingers in your ears and sing a nice LaLaLa song.
EDIT: forgot to add: Kadabra Kill reminds me of Mandrake the Magician.
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Valkyries are not deities. They are Female Warrior Spirits... akin to nymphs in origin if I remember right... They are much closer to Angels or demigods. Both of which are not deities ^.^|
Originally Posted by Tramontane
Okay, well, fine, it's technobabble. It's still a magic (Sorry, pseudoscience) weapon turning somebody into a Norse Deity/Superhero.
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And nanotech is not magic. Neither is nanotech possibly turning one into what one might consider a super powered being. From tests ran and projections of the technology capabilities (it's not been human tested yet last i heard) nanocells would allow humans to jump higher, run faster, play harder, hold your breath longer, and a number of other things... and even if it weren't nanotech is still technology, not magic.
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And some people are wholly convinced that magic is real. So, um. Yeah.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
And nanotech is not magic. Neither is nanotech possibly turning one into what one might consider a super powered being. From tests ran and projections of the technology capabilities (it's not been human tested yet last i heard) nanocells would allow humans to jump higher, run faster, play harder, hold your breath longer, and a number of other things... and even if it weren't nanotech is still technology, not magic. |
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Claws/WP Brute. Sex without the angst.
Every CoX character lies somewhere on this spectrum.
Nanotech might as well be "magic" in fiction. Even the most hard of science fiction pushes their uses well beyond theoretical limits. It became a little annoying for a while when nanobots became the panacea/deus ex machina du jour for a ton of fiction for a while.
He says, while having a character that's full of alien nanobots that don't conform to science and might as well be magic, too.
Dec out.
Pretty sure Back Alley Brawler is an analogue for Luke Cage.
---
Concerning Lord Recluse, I think he's a cool design for a villain who winds up being poorly written. While I've only been playing for a year, he was a very distinctive and memorable image back when game magazine articles were going over CoV. I'd argue that a few text tweaks could help his portrayal towards newer players (pretty sure vets are past the point of new return for improving that).
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I really think the main problem with Recluse is that this game swings wildly between incredibly dark and dramatic, as per the theme of the Rogue Isles in general, vs. wacky saturday-morning-cartoon comedy, as per every story arc where Recluse actually appears. So what we're left with is a dark, scary, World-of-Darkness-style bunch of evil death and hopelessness islands run by a "Batman Beyond" villain.
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
Pretty sure Back Alley Brawler is an analogue for Luke Cage.
--- Concerning Lord Recluse, I think he's a cool design for a villain who winds up being poorly written. While I've only been playing for a year, he was a very distinctive and memorable image back when game magazine articles were going over CoV. I'd argue that a few text tweaks could help his portrayal towards newer players (pretty sure vets are past the point of new return for improving that). |
Ice/Ice Blaster. Dedication to concept is an ugly thing.
Claws/WP Brute. Sex without the angst.
Every CoX character lies somewhere on this spectrum.
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